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rockpond

Hype for April 2019 Conference

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1 minute ago, rockpond said:

Yeah, if you kept released time and phased it out over a lengthy period it would reduce the impact to CES employees.  But there are still some CES employees who supervise the early morning seminary and they'd be out of work.  Not sure how much institute could absorb.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen and I actually agree with your logic of this being in a similar class as pageants and scouts.

Eliminating released time right now would be a big blow to my family.  Released time seminary is currently one of the only ways my children get to meet/know the other LDS kids in their school (some odd stake boundaries have put my family in a different stake than nearly all of the kids they attend high school with).

my folks were saying in the 1970's you saw members of the Church, almost everyday with the different times to come to church but now it's the opposite, with this 2 hour church stuff, online seminary the social cohesion is becoming unglued

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I never hear any rumors except on this board.  But that said I expect more significant changes.  Pres. Nelson has a vision for how he thinks the Church should look and he realizes his age and the accompanying time limit.

He will implement whatever he can as quickly as he can.

A fairly secular view but not necessarily wrong, IMO. 

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7 hours ago, rockpond said:

............. very few YM still working toward Eagle (most will be done or the rank will be out of reach due to time constraints).

Even in Zion, wherever that may be, there will be secular troops available -- so that boys can complete their Eagle rank, if desired.  Elsewhere, there are plenty of BSA troops which are associated with other churches -- and girls will be joining in larger numbers !!!  I spent about 5 years in a non-LDS troop and loved it.

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1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Even in Zion, wherever that may be, there will be secular troops available -- so that boys can complete their Eagle rank, if desired.  Elsewhere, there are plenty of BSA troops which are associated with other churches -- and girls will be joining in larger numbers !!!  I spent about 5 years in a non-LDS troop and loved it.

Yes, those who want to continue, certainly have ways to do that.  But our ward troop will be winding down scout stuff by the latter half of next year. 

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2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not saying it couldn't happen and I actually agree with your logic of this being in a similar class as pageants and scouts.

Elder Bednar did tell us nearly five years ago that it would be American Saints who would struggle most with coming changes. I assumed at the time that this was a comment on culture, but it could also be an acknowledgement that uniquely American institutions are going away. Interesting.

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

A fairly secular view but not necessarily wrong, IMO. 

I've noticed quite a few times on this forum now that there is often little that separates the fundamentalist view from the secular/progressive one. :good:

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Elder Renlund in our regional leadership meeting was asked about the take your vitamins and he basically said he was not sure. He is aware of things that he is over, but admitted there are things occurring with other members of the twelve who under the direction of the First Presidency are looking at items related to their assignments.  So big changes? Perhaps or perhaps not. 

Temples open on Sunday? Someday they will be that is for sure but is the time now? I am not sure. That would require filling many more ordinance worker positions as for some ordinance workers like me, our callings prohibit serving on Sunday (EQP).  I am not sure we have the capability to staff the Temples, especially in Utah on any given Sunday. What do I know though, what do any of us know on this topic of depth? If you want to stay up on rumors, follow certain people on Twitter who seem to have a knack for sharing rumors that are of substance. 

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6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've noticed quite a few times on this forum now that there is often little that separates the fundamentalist view from the secular/progressive one. :good:

I called it secular because @JLHPROF said:

Pres. Nelson has a vision for how he thinks the Church should look and he realizes his age and the accompanying time limit.”

which to me sounds like this is all about President Nelson’s ideas and timeline, not the Lord’s. 

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What i'm finding odd is all the changes that have come, all the rumored changes to come, have nothing at all to do with restoration.  I don't know if Nelson is just trying to make himself more important seeming in the eyes of the masses of Church members or if he really thinks he has something to restore.  It seems to me he's trying his best to give the membership some excitement.  

I guess we'll see what happens.  I still find it an odd thing to implement, if indeed God is behind it.  "Go and tell the church that the restoration is not complete.  It is ok that nearly all prophets since Joseph have said it was fully restored.  They will listen to you.  And then stay tuned.  I'll give a piece here or there.  Oh and don't forget to tell them to eat vitamins.  They WoW isn't enough anymore."

Of course we have nothing but past leaders telling us that God doesn't speak to them like that either.  So it just feels like fabricated efforts to excite.  

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48 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What i'm finding odd is all the changes that have come, all the rumored changes to come, have nothing at all to do with restoration.  I don't know if Nelson is just trying to make himself more important seeming in the eyes of the masses of Church members or if he really thinks he has something to restore.  It seems to me he's trying his best to give the membership some excitement.  

I guess we'll see what happens.  I still find it an odd thing to implement, if indeed God is behind it.  "Go and tell the church that the restoration is not complete.  It is ok that nearly all prophets since Joseph have said it was fully restored.  They will listen to you.  And then stay tuned.  I'll give a piece here or there.  Oh and don't forget to tell them to eat vitamins.  They WoW isn't enough anymore."

Of course we have nothing but past leaders telling us that God doesn't speak to them like that either.  So it just feels like fabricated efforts to excite.  

IIRC correctly at the press conference for Pres. Kimball he said we don't anticipate any major changes and then as we saw there were major changes but he didn't allude to anything. I think of obviously the Priesthood revelation, new scriptures, new Temples all over the world, expanded missionary force, they lowered the time for missionary service but went back to the old way but Pres. Kimball just never gave any teasers. Same thing with Pres. Hinckley, he announced new stuff,i.e. smaller Temples, Nauvoo Temple, restructuring the Area Seventies,use of media, Conference Centre, Ricks to BYUI. Neither men gave teasers, just came out with it. Pres. Nelson is alluding to stuff and what approach is better I don't know. Both you anticipate for but what the climax as it were actually is I have no idea.

Edited by Duncan
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58 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I called it secular because @JLHPROF said:

Pres. Nelson has a vision for how he thinks the Church should look and he realizes his age and the accompanying time limit.”

which to me sounds like this is all about President Nelson’s ideas and timeline, not the Lord’s. 

That is how I read JLH's post as well.  That he doesn't believe Pres. Nelson is acting under God's direction.

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I called it secular because @JLHPROF said:

Pres. Nelson has a vision for how he thinks the Church should look and he realizes his age and the accompanying time limit.”

which to me sounds like this is all about President Nelson’s ideas and timeline, not the Lord’s. 

I shouldn't speak for JLHPROF, but I'd guess he'd think that Nelson's ideas and timeline can be inspired by the Lord.  If so, I'd think it'd be hard to drive a stake in at a certain point wherein it delineates between Nelson's ideas as opposed to the Lord's.  Perhaps significant overlap is exactly how it's always been for each of the leaders.  

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17 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

The rumors I've heard is that temples will open Sundays to let people do endowments in the afternoon and evening. That's the primary reason for the 2 hour meeting to open up further temple worship. People find it hard to go during the week - especially if you have younger kids. So this is to fix that.

I heard it explicitly said from Elder Neil L. Anderson that changes are coming to the temple. I've also heard this from a couple of friends in the translation department. 

 

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17 hours ago, Duncan said:

I too would be surprised if they opened them on Sunday....

What if it were only on fifth Sundays or some other arrangement? Regular church meetings could be cancelled for the day, and the temple be opened the entire day instead.... 

Just an idea that popped into my head. 

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I still find it an odd thing to implement, if indeed God is behind it.  "Go and tell the church that the restoration is not complete.  It is ok that nearly all prophets since Joseph have said it was fully restored.  They will listen to you.  And then stay tuned.  I'll give a piece here or there."

"Nearly all prophets since Joseph have said it was fully restored?"  Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

Also, what are your thoughts regarding AoF 1:9 ("We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God") (emphasis added)?

And also D&C 98:12 ("For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith")?

And these remarks from Pres. N. Eldon Tanner in 1977: "We have a prophet of God upon the earth today, even Spencer W. Kimball, through whom God speaks to man just as he did in former days, and as we accept his counsel, we will receive further light and knowledge."

And these remarks from 2000 from then-Elder Nelson (emphases added):

Quote

Though our understanding of the Creation is limited, we know enough to appreciate its supernal significance. And that store of knowledge will be augmented in the future. Scripture declares: “In that day when the Lord shall come [again], he shall reveal all things—

“Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

“Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.”45

Yes, further light and knowledge will come. The Lord said, “If there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas, or to the dry land, or to the sun, moon, or stars—

“All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years, … and all their glories, laws, and set times, shall be revealed in the days of the dispensation of the fulness of times.”46

---

[45] D&C 101:32–34.

[46] D&C 121:30–31.

And these 2014 remarks from then-President Uchtdorf (emphasis added):

Quote

Sometimes we think of the Restoration of the gospel as something that is complete, already behind us—Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, he received priesthood keys, the Church was organized. In reality, the Restoration is an ongoing process; we are living in it right now. It includes “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal,” and the “many great and important things” that “He will yet reveal.” Brethren, the exciting developments of today are part of that long-foretold period of preparation that will culminate in the glorious Second Coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

And so on.

An open canon.  Continuing revelation.  Living prophets.  "Many great and important things" that "He will yet reveal."  Having spent my entire life in the Church, I find it difficult to reconcile these things with the idea that the restoration is complete.  That there is nothing more to be restored, that there is nothing more to be added to the corpus of light and knowledge we have received from God.

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Of course we have nothing but past leaders telling us that God doesn't speak to them like that either.  So it just feels like fabricated efforts to excite.  

Not sure what you mean here.

Thanks,

-Smac

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11 hours ago, Duncan said:

my folks were saying in the 1970's you saw members of the Church, almost everyday with the different times to come to church but now it's the opposite, with this 2 hour church stuff, online seminary the social cohesion is becoming unglued

Yes especially outside the Mormon corridor where ward boundaries are large this may affect socialization and thereby retention. The idea is, I think, to shift so people can socialize. However as I've said, whenever the Church has tried to swing the pendulum to individual initiative people usually fall down. I think people need structure to socialize - especially introverts. That's partially why I've worried about the practical effects of ministering vs. home teaching. Pres. Nelson is putting the onus on people to socialize on their own to maintain ward cohesion. We'll see if the members step up enough to do this.

7 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

I heard it explicitly said from Elder Neil L. Anderson that changes are coming to the temple. I've also heard this from a couple of friends in the translation department. 

Although that could refer to the ceremony. There's been rumors of new filming for the temple video, although they just recently revised things so that may be conflating it with older rumors. Still the endowment ceremony itself still has a lot of elements some would say are non-essential masonic elements. Also some argue the creation drama could be shortened further.

But I've heard the Sunday temple rumor enough that I suspect there's something to it.

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I guess we'll see what happens.  I still find it an odd thing to implement, if indeed God is behind it.  "Go and tell the church that the restoration is not complete.  It is ok that nearly all prophets since Joseph have said it was fully restored.  They will listen to you.  And then stay tuned.  I'll give a piece here or there.  Oh and don't forget to tell them to eat vitamins.  They WoW isn't enough anymore."

Prophets haven't said it's fully restored. They've said we have the fulness of the gospel but that's not the same thing. The ninth article of faith strongly implies not everything is restored. Plus there's the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. So I confess I don't get this "everything is restored" bit some argue. 

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Of course we have nothing but past leaders telling us that God doesn't speak to them like that either.  So it just feels like fabricated efforts to excite.  

Umm. What?

8 hours ago, Gapper said:

Temples open on Sunday? Someday they will be that is for sure but is the time now? I am not sure. That would require filling many more ordinance worker positions as for some ordinance workers like me, our callings prohibit serving on Sunday (EQP).  I am not sure we have the capability to staff the Temples, especially in Utah on any given Sunday.

I suspect if they implement this they'd close on Tuesday or something like that. But I'd also say that if any location could easily staff temples it'd be Utah. My guess is that with recent changes we'll start seeing some Stake callings dropped over the next few years.

 

 

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18 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If nothing else, leaders are doing a good job ginning up interest in conference. I don't know if interest had waned that significantly, but they sure seem to enjoy the hype and so far the enthusiasm has definitely ramped up. I'll be curious to see how long that level of increased excitement can be maintained.

They can only cry wolf for so long though.

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3 minutes ago, Alan said:

They can only cry wolf for so long though.

Are you saying that leadership hasn't lived up to the conference hype this past year? I hear a lot of people make that argument, and I understand why, but in comparison to the past 30 years it seems like the last year has brought a lot of change. We can argue about how significant those changes are, but there IS change. Pres. Nelson seems quite ambitious, in the sense that he knows he has limited time and seems to have many things he'd like to do. Personally, I don't feel that he has communicated an overall vision for the changes he plans, but he is certainly aggressive in challenging the status quo. Even if I don't like everything he does, I definitely respect his efforts as a leader to actually lead people through change.

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10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Elder Bednar did tell us nearly five years ago that it would be American Saints who would struggle most with coming changes. I assumed at the time that this was a comment on culture, but it could also be an acknowledgement that uniquely American institutions are going away. Interesting.

That is why I suspect many of the changes I listed.

1 hour ago, Alan said:

They can only cry wolf for so long though.

It is not crying wolf when the wolf shows up. You may not think it is particularly scary or intimidating wolf but it is a wolf.

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"Nearly all prophets since Joseph have said it was fully restored?"  Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

Also, what are your thoughts regarding AoF 1:9 ("We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God") (emphasis added)?

And also D&C 98:12 ("For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith")?

And these remarks from Pres. N. Eldon Tanner in 1977: "We have a prophet of God upon the earth today, even Spencer W. Kimball, through whom God speaks to man just as he did in former days, and as we accept his counsel, we will receive further light and knowledge."

And these remarks from 2000 from then-Elder Nelson (emphases added):

And these 2014 remarks from then-President Uchtdorf (emphasis added):

And so on.

An open canon.  Continuing revelation.  Living prophets.  "Many great and important things" that "He will yet reveal."  Having spent my entire life in the Church, I find it difficult to reconcile these things with the idea that the restoration is complete.  That there is nothing more to be restored, that there is nothing more to be added to the corpus of light and knowledge we have received from God.

Well, let me take back the passing comment about fully restored.  I don't care to try and dig deep into quotes from past leaders that may suggest as much, even if there are some.  My main point is, the changes we've seen have nothing to do with restoration.  I also find it odd that God would tell Nelson to give some teaser about coming things to restore.  I wonder if it's polygamy.  Now that'd be a restored practice/doctrine.  2 hour church?  Not a restored one at all, of course.    

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Not sure what you mean here.

Thanks,

-Smac

Many leaders, as I recall, have indicated that the type of communication they get from God is feelings, and not so much words that became scripture.  

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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I was talking with my ultra-traditionalist parents last night and they were saying the same thing. I think there's a lot of validity to what they're saying. When they were young their entire social life revolved around the church. Church sports programs, church activities, church building projects, farm projects, road shows etc. They were all super involved with each other as a community. They've seen this community diminish gradually over time. No more road shows. No more organized basketball and softball programs (at least in most non-Utah areas). Then there was the consolidation of meetings. Symposia and small study groups were discouraged. Now pageants at church history sites are going away. The disintegration of the church community makes them sad and I can understand that perspective.

My parents see it as the world consuming the church instead of the church remaining separate and peculiar. I can appreciate their concerns as they are very dedicated to the notion of creating a Zion people. In their minds at least it is difficult to create a zion people when the people are not together more than a couple of hours per week. For them, older, life-long members having served in every ward and stake leadership calling imaginable, and now as temple workers, The church has become a place where most people go for a little while on Sunday...and usually that's out of a sense of duty, not a longing for worship (their words).

I imagine it is probably different in many ways for people in Utah, but this is their experience which matches mine as well and we are polar opposites right now on most things church related.

"Church family" used to be something I really felt. Now it feels like an attempt to cling to the memory of what the church used to feel like.

If people want these things there is nothing to stop them from organizing them. I just think the days of that kind of handholding (and overburdening leadership with them) are over. A true Zion people do not need the help to spend time doing things together. :) 

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11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Even in Zion, wherever that may be, there will be secular troops available -- so that boys can complete their Eagle rank, if desired.  Elsewhere, there are plenty of BSA troops which are associated with other churches -- and girls will be joining in larger numbers !!!  I spent about 5 years in a non-LDS troop and loved it.

My husband worked with a "every" religion troop with my stepson.  It turned out that this group was so good...on target with scouting principles and enough money to really get to do things.  I think my son would have enjoyed this better...he did not like cubscouts at all!  This is on a government post where the chapel is for all religions except LDS.

PS...someday if anyone has time...please really explain to me the "Come Follow Me" program with families.

Edited by Jeanne
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1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

Well, let me take back the passing comment about fully restored.  I don't care to try and dig deep into quotes from past leaders that may suggest as much, even if there are some.  My main point is, the changes we've seen have nothing to do with restoration.  I also find it odd that God would tell Nelson to give some teaser about coming things to restore.  I wonder if it's polygamy.  Now that'd be a restored practice/doctrine.  2 hour church?  Not a restored one at all, of course.    

 

Many leaders, as I recall, have indicated that the type of communication they get from God is feelings, and not so much words that became scripture.  

That is why this is only the beginning. ;) 

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1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Prophets haven't said it's fully restored. They've said we have the fulness of the gospel but that's not the same thing. The ninth article of faith strongly implies not everything is restored. Plus there's the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. So I confess I don't get this "everything is restored" bit some argue. 

I think the concept of Church in ancient times is kind of silly.  It is argued they didn't exist quite like we conceive of them today.  What is to be restored?  The Church never was, at least until after Jesus.  The gospel is really what was restored.  The Church just happens to be a bunch of rules, regulations, and practices getting codified.  I'd say there's plenty to debate here, but it's really getting off the point of my comments.  Really I just wanted to point out that these changes we've seen have nothing to do with restoration at all.  If Nelson has restoration on his mind, I wonder what that might include.  Because dropping the nickname Mormon doesn't feel like restoration at all to me.  

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Umm. What?

 

The nature of revelation described to us, as little as it has, usually comes off as it was described for the lifting of the Priesthood ban, you know back when they had to walk back from McConkie's overly exaggerated rendition.

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