ALarson Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You just can't restrain the ebullient hope of a 'progressive Mormon' who has convinced her-/himself that the Church's long-awaited reform is imminent. "long-awaited"? I'm not sure what you are referring to here because the church and its teachings (from the leaders and Prophets) have been evolving and changing all along....from the beginning. I see no reason to believe that will stop now. 2 Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, reubendunn1 said: One would have thought that the Proclomation on the Family provided the “clarity” on gender. I'll elaborate: The Family proclamation speaks to opposite sex marriage along with their roles and responsibilities. It doesn't really go beyond that. 3 Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 minute ago, ALarson said: "long-awaited"? I'm not sure what you are referring to here because the church and its teachings (from the leaders and Prophets) have been evolving and changing all along....from the beginning. I see no reason to believe that will stop now. Agreed... we've got almost 200 years of reform "under our belt" now. No reason that it should stop and every indication that it might speed up. 2 Link to comment
MustardSeed Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, reubendunn1 said: One would have thought that the Proclomation on the Family provided the “clarity” on gender. Except science. How about the unexplained? Couple in my ward a few years ago was having trouble conceiving. Got checked, turns out she had an X and a Y . The Y never “switched on”. I’ve poured over the proclamation for clarity but by golly I’m just not seeing it Edited March 6, 2019 by MustardSeed Toning down my attitude 2 Link to comment
MustardSeed Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 13 minutes ago, rockpond said: When I was in middle school (Phoenix, not the Mormon-dense area of Mesa/Gilbert) I confessed to my Bishop that I drank Pepsi when it was offered to me. His response: If someone offered you a beer, would you drink that? In consequence, I swore off caffeinated drinks. Until my mission... it was in my first area, probably on my first day -- lunch at an investigator's house: She served us Pepsi with lunch (I find it funny that it was Pepsi again as I am now a Diet Coke drinker). At first I declined but my trainer indicated that I should accept it. He later explained that the water from their home would not have been good to drink and that it was okay if I drank caffeinated beverages. When pop was called as Bishop he was instructed to shave his beard and stop drinking coke. These *policies* get trickled down. There are many many subtle messages which shape our behavior. ***OPINION ALERT*** 4 Link to comment
bluebell Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 hour ago, rockpond said: When I was in middle school (Phoenix, not the Mormon-dense area of Mesa/Gilbert) I confessed to my Bishop that I drank Pepsi when it was offered to me. His response: If someone offered you a beer, would you drink that? In consequence, I swore off caffeinated drinks. Until my mission... it was in my first area, probably on my first day -- lunch at an investigator's house: She served us Pepsi with lunch (I find it funny that it was Pepsi again as I am now a Diet Coke drinker). At first I declined but my trainer indicated that I should accept it. He later explained that the water from their home would not have been good to drink and that it was okay if I drank caffeinated beverages. That's insane to me. I feel like we are probably around the same age and drinking pepsi or coke was not a big deal at all where I grew up in the church (though, we of course never had it served at any church functions ). 2 Link to comment
cherryTreez Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 57 minutes ago, bluebell said: That's insane to me. I feel like we are probably around the same age and drinking pepsi or coke was not a big deal at all where I grew up in the church (though, we of course never had it served at any church functions ). Drinking coke wasn't a big deal where I grew up. We did have some members move in from Utah and they delighted in making a big deal about only drinking caffeine free soda. I would cheers them with my Mt Dew and smile. I am a dr pepper girl now. 4 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: You didn't ask me, but I've been thinking about this, and I've only been able to come up with one thing: early morning seminary. I'd love to see a more workable replacement. I'd also love to stop having stake presidency meeting at 6am every Sunday, but that's a local choice and one I seem incapable of shifting. Persuasion and long suffering is effective. I would worry about praying to much to have power to change that or you may get your wish and Be called to be the stake president Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Thank you for that insight. I pray that I will have a similar one one day. On an intellectual level, if not quite a spiritual level, I can see how fasting could be an instrument for deliverance, in which case I think I too might come to view it as a delight. Best way to develop that view is by doing it Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 10 hours ago, ALarson said: I'm not sure what you are referring to here because the church and its teachings (from the leaders and Prophets) have been evolving and changing all along....from the beginning. I see no reason to believe that will stop now. I don't think anyone is contending that the Church grows and changes over time. But some people are happy for that to happy as the Lord directs (as they see it), and others have a list of grievances they really need to be addressed by future changes. From my vantage point, the second option seems very tiring. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: I would worry about praying to much to have power to change that or you may get your wish and Be called to be the stake president Thankfully, that is an impossibility ... unless the next change announced is that unmarried men can serve as stake presidents. 1 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Thankfully, that is an impossibility ... unless the next change announced is that unmarried men can serve as stake presidents. God does the impossible frequently Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 35 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: God does the impossible frequently In my case, I suspect the greater miracle would be changing my ineligibility. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 15 hours ago, reubendunn1 said: One would have thought that the Proclomation on the Family provided the “clarity” on gender. Virtual up vote. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I don't think anyone is contending that the Church grows and changes over time. But some people are happy for that to happy as the Lord directs (as they see it), and others have a list of grievances they really need to be addressed by future changes. From my vantage point, the second option seems very tiring. And tiresome to some of us who observe it. Link to comment
Popular Post rockpond Posted March 7, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted March 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I don't think anyone is contending that the Church grows and changes over time. But some people are happy for that to happy as the Lord directs (as they see it), and others have a list of grievances they really need to be addressed by future changes. From my vantage point, the second option seems very tiring. From my vantage point, the first option seems inconsistent with what we learn in our scripture and church history... The Restoration began with a 14 year old boy pondering and questioning the status quo. Three witnesses to the Book of Mormon promised in answer to Martin Harris' request. (D&C 5) Word of Wisdom given as a result of Emma raising concerns with Joseph. (D&C 89) How many were asking and praying for an end to the race-based restrictions on priesthood and temple access prior to the prophet receiving OD2? There is reason to believe that the writings of Lester Bush may have helped open President Kimball's mind to the possibility that those restrictions could be ended. And Greg Prince's oft cited example of YSA wards being "trickle-up revelation". And then we can look at the most recent changes... How many members have been asking for two hour church? How many members were hoping that we'd end our involvement with the BSA? How many members had shared their pleas that the temple ordinances could be made less patriarchal? While I would agree that it is important that members don't seek to tell the prophet how to direct the affairs of the Church, I think it is inconsistent with our teachings to suggest that members should just wait for things to happen when we should be anxiously engaged. 5 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 On 3/7/2019 at 5:56 PM, rockpond said: I think it is inconsistent with our teachings to suggest that members should just wait for things to happen when we should be anxiously engaged. Trusting that the Lord directs the work isn't necessarily the same thing as 'just waiting for things to happen'. Pray all you want, mate. The Lord will answer your prayers in His wisdom. 4 Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 53 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Trusting that the Lord directs the work isn't necessarily the same thing as 'just waiting for things to happen'. Pray all you want, mate. The Lord will answer your prayers in His wisdom. In the examples I provided, people did more than pray. 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 13 hours ago, rockpond said: In the examples I provided, people did more than pray. Implicit in the idea of praying for a change is having the willingness and the humility to accept the answer if it is “no.” 1 Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Implicit in the idea of praying for a change is having the willingness and the humility to accept the answer if it is “no.” Of course. Link to comment
PacMan Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 And then this happened. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900059557/pope-francis-meets-with-president-nelson-in-the-vatican-catholic-mormon-rome.html Link to comment
reubendunn1 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 On 3/6/2019 at 8:04 AM, rockpond said: I'll elaborate: The Family proclamation speaks to opposite sex marriage along with their roles and responsibilities. It doesn't really go beyond that. Well, the first few paragphs stated: "ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. "IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life." Link to comment
reubendunn1 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, reubendunn1 said: Well, the first few paragphs stated: "ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. "IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life." I find it hard to believe that somehow, in the pre-mortal existance an "oops" occured that allowed the a femail spirit to go into a male body. Gender identification is rather clear, from a Gospel perspective, the first two paragraphs of the Proclamation are rather clear on this; even more clear are the statements about gender identity made over the past decade. We have ended up in an era where we, as a society, have ended up not wanting to "offend" anyone. We'd rather go with the flow and not say anything that might "offend", even if that means remaining mute when in the past voices from the Lord were heard. Gender selection does not begin with the X/Y chromosome, although science would suggest otherwise. From a Restoration perspective, that selection was known prior to this life. Link to comment
rockpond Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, reubendunn1 said: Well, the first few paragphs stated: "ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. "IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life." 2 minutes ago, reubendunn1 said: I find it hard to believe that somehow, in the pre-mortal existance an "oops" occured that allowed the a femail spirit to go into a male body. Gender identification is rather clear, from a Gospel perspective, the first two paragraphs of the Proclamation are rather clear on this; even more clear are the statements about gender identity made over the past decade. We have ended up in an era where we, as a society, have ended up not wanting to "offend" anyone. We'd rather go with the flow and not say anything that might "offend", even if that means remaining mute when in the past voices from the Lord were heard. I'll be the first to admit that I don't really understand those who identify as transgender. But I'm not willing to dismiss their claims either. And then there are hermaphrodites (those born with both genitalia). 18 minutes ago, reubendunn1 said: Gender selection does not begin with the X/Y chromosome, although science would suggest otherwise. And it seems that those who are transgender would likely agree with this perspective... they feel that regardless of the physical gender that they were born into, their spirit or soul is a different gender. 1 Link to comment
pogi Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, reubendunn1 said: Gender selection does not begin with the X/Y chromosome, although science would suggest otherwise What do you mean by "gender selection"? Quote I find it hard to believe that somehow, in the pre-mortal existance an "oops" occured that allowed the a femail spirit to go into a male body. Gender identification is rather clear, from a Gospel perspective, the first two paragraphs of the Proclamation are rather clear on this; even more clear are the statements about gender identity made over the past decade. If you think our biology is a perfect expression and representation of our spiritual gender (no "oops"), then what do you make of intersex people? Edited March 13, 2019 by pogi 3 Link to comment
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