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BYU suicide and campus mental health appt. wait times

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17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Says the guy who is exploiting a suicide to criticize a religious group he dislikes.

It poisons the well, you see.

Poppycock.  Nobody is saying "that BYU can't do wrong."

Umm...

You're just taunting now.

This is you being "objective," is it?

-Smac

Really Smac, you just stated i exploited someone's suicide to criticize a religious group I dislike.  I think you should retract that statement.  I have a really loaded reply for you if you really want to go that route and if I can't post it here I will post in on mormondiscussions.   I am serious as can be, you retract that crap.

In no way am I exploiting this kid's suicide.  I am hoping we can learn from what happened.  I personally know individuals that committed suicide at BYU.  I associate with people that provide resources to survive these situations and they do it on the very grounds of BYU.

Hopefully, you can lay down the Official Mormon Apologetics Approach to Posting on Message Boards Manual and ride into reality.

Edited by lostindc

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8 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Okay, so your point is to establish why she did this, and work on providing solutions to avoid this from happening again?

What do you propose we do to research why this happened and who is responsible for figuring out why this continues to happen at BYU and in the state of Utah?

 

You can pretend that that this is exclusively a BYU/Utah problem. 

Or that BYU isn't doing enough. 

 

BYU: 1,082:1

1,737:1

The mean student-to-counseling-staff ratio at colleges and universities, according to a survey of counseling center directors. Smaller institutions had smaller ratios, on average (705:1 at schools smaller than 1,500 students), while larger institutions had larger ratios (2,624:1 at schools with more than 35,000 students).2

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2017/09/numbers.aspx.    

Or this report:

https://www.boston25news.com/news/25-investigates-mass-universities-struggle-to-meet-mental-health-demands/821937464

Or maybe Massachusetts along with all universities nation wide is also suffering from the darn Mormon influence. 

Or this article:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-09-21/how-college-students-can-find-mental-health-services-on-campus

Which states:

A 2017 analysis by the center found that roughly half of students who sought counseling in the previous year had some symptoms of depression. Anxiety concerns had affected 62 percent. More than one-third of those seeking help had contemplated suicide at some point in their lifetime.

Micky Sharma, director of the Office of Student Life Counseling and Consultation Service at Ohio State University—Columbus, thinks the numbers can be partly explained by the fact that many students who previously would not have attended college are now doing so, thanks to better treatments. In addition, he speculates, "this generation's constant connection to technology may be inhibiting their coping and problem-solving skills."

 

Or maybe this professor is just trying to defend BYU at all costs. 

Or there is USC, hailed as an example of a university responding well  to the current  college mental  health epidemic, where non-crisis students have wait times of 4 weeks or face being referred off campus. 

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Just now, kllindley said:

You can pretend that that this is exclusively a BYU/Utah problem. 

Or that BYU isn't doing enough. 

 

BYU: 1,082:1

1,737:1

The mean student-to-counseling-staff ratio at colleges and universities, according to a survey of counseling center directors. Smaller institutions had smaller ratios, on average (705:1 at schools smaller than 1,500 students), while larger institutions had larger ratios (2,624:1 at schools with more than 35,000 students).2

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2017/09/numbers.aspx.    

Or this report:

https://www.boston25news.com/news/25-investigates-mass-universities-struggle-to-meet-mental-health-demands/821937464

Or maybe Massachusetts along with all universities nation wide is also suffering from the darn Mormon influence. 

Or this article:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2018-09-21/how-college-students-can-find-mental-health-services-on-campus

Which states:

A 2017 analysis by the center found that roughly half of students who sought counseling in the previous year had some symptoms of depression. Anxiety concerns had affected 62 percent. More than one-third of those seeking help had contemplated suicide at some point in their lifetime.

Micky Sharma, director of the Office of Student Life Counseling and Consultation Service at Ohio State University—Columbus, thinks the numbers can be partly explained by the fact that many students who previously would not have attended college are now doing so, thanks to better treatments. In addition, he speculates, "this generation's constant connection to technology may be inhibiting their coping and problem-solving skills."

 

Or maybe this professor is just trying to defend BYU at all costs. 

Or there is USC, hailed as an example of a university responding well  to the current  college mental  health epidemic, where non-crisis students have wait times of 4 weeks or face being referred off campus. 

Again, I've posted stats in this thread that display that the rates of suicide and mental illness are significantly higher within the college age bracket in Utah, so whether BYU has the same amount of counselors as another university isn't equitable if that other university doesn't have the same level of issues.  We have a problem and you excuse it as other's have the same problem (arguably not on the same scale) but since others have the same problem then we're good, nothing to see here.

 

What I am reading here is weak apologetics applied to the topic of this thread.  Posters here are so focused on apologetics that objectivity is not necessary.  Defend at all costs.

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1 hour ago, lostindc said:

I am so sorry about you daughter.  I really do care.  My fear in moving west, was heavily focused on poor education funding and terrible healthcare.  This fear is not unfounded in some regions.  I don't live in Utah, but I have, and I am there a lot, and I worked at a university a met quite a few highly qualified psych phd candidates that were returning to SLC to build up the offerings.  So, I hope, and I believe Salt Lake County has improved greatly in terms of mental health specialists that are very capable in most realms of mental illness.

To me, meeting the demands of the students asking for more counselors doesn't have many drawbacks, at worse the department is overfunded with a bunch of counselors playing roblox on their phones all day, at best, they help prevent suicide. 

My daughter has had tons better treatment for her diabetes and I for my sleep disorder than everywhere else, even Canada. Unfortunately it has been harder to find the perfect fit for mental health, but we may have found the best solution. Will have to see. 

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17 minutes ago, lostindc said:

...some of us posters are shocked at Clark and others that minimize the horrific things occurring.

Just for the record I've never minimized the tragedy. Quite the contrary. I've gone out of my way to publicize resources.

Edited by clarkgoble
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2 hours ago, lostindc said:

Fair question, if you think this is built on a criticism of the Church then you spend to much time on this board debating/defending and it's warped your sense of my motives and potentially others.

OTOH, you seem to interpret others’ posts challenging yours as solely apologetics when for me it is not about the Church, but about psychology (my degree and hobby). Knowing Clark, I suspect he is primarily interested in the science/accuracy as well as a more holistic/paradigm analysis approach. Perhaps your view is being warped as well by your assumptions?

Kllindley is a professional therapist and isn’t shy about criticizing Church culture when he sees it as well and is heavy into promoting use of quality research. 

Smac and Scott are less obvious imo as they haven’t focused on psychology and such as much in their posts, but I don’t think it should be automatically assumed it is apologetics for them either or anyone else posting as we don’t know most posters’ experiences in this area. 

Edited by Calm

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18 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Really Smac, you just stated i exploited someone's suicide to criticize a religious group I dislike.  I think you should retract that statement.  I have a really loaded reply for you if you really want to go that route and if I can't post it here I will post in on mormondiscussions.   I am serious as can be, you retract that crap.

In no way am I exploiting this kid's suicide.  I am hoping we can learn from what happened.  I personally know individuals that committed suicide at BYU.  I associate with people that provide resources to survive these situations and they do it on the very grounds of BYU.

Hopefully, you can lay down the Official Mormon Apologetics Approach to Posting on Message Boards Manual and ride into reality.

I retract it.

-Smac

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5 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Just for the record I've never minimized the tragedy. Quite the contrary. I've gone out of my way to publicize resources.

wow Clark, that definitely cancels out that you find these kids not resilient.  I mean, why consider the challenges these individuals traverse.  To you, they're weak, not resilient" and are addicted to social media.

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9 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Again, I've posted stats in this thread that display that the rates of suicide and mental illness are significantly higher within the college age bracket in Utah, so whether BYU has the same amount of counselors as another university isn't equitable if that other university doesn't have the same level of issues.  We have a problem and you excuse it as other's have the same problem (arguably not on the same scale) but since others have the same problem then we're good, nothing to see here.

 

What I am reading here is weak apologetics applied to the topic of this thread.  Posters here are so focused on apologetics that objectivity is not necessary.  Defend at all costs.

So that's the third time you've misrepresented me. I have said that I support increasing the number of therapists.  I support increasing the number of therapists

You continue to claim that the focus has been on apologetics, but that is pure speculation on your part. I frequently criticize Church culture which often creates and then exacerbates and diminishes mental health issues. I work professionally every day to combat that influence. 

So continue to make false claims about my motivations and my comments. Or run to other boards and misrepresented me there. 

It doesn't make your case here any more believable. 

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52 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Okay, so your point is to establish why she did this, and work on providing solutions to avoid this from happening again?

What do you propose we do to research why this happened and who is responsible for figuring out why this continues to happen at BYU and in the state of Utah?

 

Why this continues to happen at BYU?

an isolated incident is hardly a plague

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24 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Just for the record I've never minimized the tragedy. Quite the contrary. I've gone out of my way to publicize resources.

That hasn’t stopped him from claiming it

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2 hours ago, lostindc said:

no one wants to ignore research.  I believe the students want counselors now, research can follow.  Is that okay?

I am concerned like Clark that students think therapy is a cure all (if I understand him correctly). I have no problem with more counselors, but I would think it more effective use of funds to put more of it immediately into better evaluations, both prior to coming to college and afterwards, including using therapists in short term interactions (took three sessions for my daughter to be evaluated for ECT plus a physical). Then direct students to the most likely effective approaches for them including insisting the student return home when there’s a good support system there and any risk as well as extensive referrals to community resources.   I have seen too much wasted time and long term harm done by assuming one size fits all treatments whether it is drug or therapy or relying on clinicians that were generalists rather than specialists. 

I think getting students to the type of treatment they need is more important than what may end up being a bandaid (more therapists) because having someone to complain to can give a sense of relief, but not be that helpful in actual coping and that relief may cause the student to delay getting the type of relief they actually need (I feel the same way when drugs are handed out without insisting therapy be used in most cases).

Edited by Calm
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Maybe they need in person triage appointments to figure out if people are stable enough to wait or need to be fast tracked. I’m not sure the student in a mental health crisis can determine this on their own.

This is what I would like to see.

edit:  and apparently it is present, perhaps funding would be best spent immediately on educating/publicizing resources. That would be very easy to do for immediate, maybe even overnight effect. (Not saying this is the only thing that should be done, but first thing)

Edited by Calm

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1 hour ago, kllindley said:

CBT is the most heavily researched modality, but largely because it lends itself to manualized, short term treatment. Unfortunately, the way most experimental research is structured i.e. by graduate students and faculty on an academic year timetable, this makes it much easier to investigate and rule out confounding effects. 

Like BlueDreams points out, the most reliable meta-analyses of effective factors in talk therapy point to the therapist-client relationship as more important than any particular modality. 

Hasn’t changed much since my day, it seems. Client-therapist relationship was the number one factor in success or failure of treatment. 

There was a lot of hope that CBT would change that given it could be easier to define and study than other models. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, lostindc said:

What do you want me to counter argue Clark?  I love how you wish to argue against the idea that BYU needs more counselors and Utah and BYU do not have suicide and mental health issues, beyond many other states and universities. 

But yes Clark, what shall we debate today?

I am having a hard time seeing how you are reading Clark’s posts as this in no way resembles what he has been saying.  (Not being sarcastic, truly dumbfounded by this response)

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2 hours ago, lostindc said:

no one wants to ignore research.  I believe the students want counselors now, research can follow.  Is that okay?

We think the children may need dental checkups but they say they want candy. We should just give them all the candy they want and let the research come later.

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I am definitely taking a step back from this thread for a minute.  I want to say that I believe you posters care about each of these students and those struggling with mental illness.  I believe we all want the best for these kids.  We may disagree in regards to causes and solutions, but we probably don’t disagree about wanting these students to achieve the best possible outcome.  I can’t imagine the nightmare that girl lived and I can’t imagine the nightmare her loved ones are now living.  Their daughter is gone.  Life is extremely humbling and challenges are unpredicatable and even unrelenting.  

In my younger years, a older member of the Church who was briefly my Bishops, and I also knew him the majority of my life was one of the kindest individuals I’ve ever encountered.  Still, I can imagine but a small handful of people I’ve know to display his kindness.  He made time for many of my peers that suffered through various mental health struggles.  Always available, always a shoulder to lean on.  This exists in the Church...still.  While these individuals still exist we know that quite a few that struggle are in good hands.  I hoping for the best.

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5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We think the children may need dental checkups but they say they want candy. We should just give them all the candy they want and let the research come later.

Nehor, no one is saying don’t conduct research, people are screaming to conduct research, and at the same time, but at the same time, don’t wait to stop the bleeding.  Move forward and apply what we learn from the research.  

 

Listen to the students that say this will help.  Mental health intervention with a mental health professional can work.  

We don’t often necessarily know the cause of a personality or mood disorder for an individual, but mental health intervention still exists to treat and maybe even find the why.  But carry on.  I just posted a second ago that I am backing off this thread for a minute.

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40 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Why this continues to happen at BYU?

an isolated incident is hardly a plague

I wouldn’t describe it as isolated or a plague  

 

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29 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Listen to the students that say this will help.  Mental health intervention with a mental health professional can work.  

Listen to those who consistently have said mental health intervention is available from more places than a BYU clinic. Just because a student says something is the solution does not mean it is the solution.

Edited by clarkgoble
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More than 45 percent of young adults who stopped attending college because of mental health related reasons did not request accommodations.(14) 50 percent of them did not access mental health services and supports either.(15)

Overall, 40 percent of students with diagnosable mental health conditions did not seek help.(16) 57 percent of them did not request accommodations from their school.(17)

Concern of stigma is the number one reason students do not seek help.(18)

https://www.csc.edu/bit/resources/statistics/

also if curious in what students say are needed:

Quote

Students have emphasized the critical need for the following services and supports to be available on campus:(23)

Mental health training for faculty, staff and students

Suicide prevention programs

Peer-run, student mental health organizations

Mental health information during campus tours, orientation, health classes and other campus-wide events

Walk-in student health centers, 24-hour crisis hotlines, ongoing individual counseling services, screening and evaluation services and comprehensive referrals to off-campus services and supports

Focusing primarily on adding to the number of therapists available is missing the boat, imo.

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5 hours ago, lostindc said:

Yes the variables are different for the depression era compared to now, but I bet research can show that the responses are similar.  

You asked, "How do you treat the problem if you don't know what is causing it?," and I reply, when a doctor is setting someone's broken leg do they focus on what caused the broken leg or is the doctor focused on setting the broken leg so the healing process can happen and then other measures can be taken?

With all due respect and assuming by your posts that this is probably something that's close to your heart in concerns, i don't think that is a good analogy/argument for depression, anxiety or other therapy related concerns. Knowing the causes for someone's depression can be extremely helpful in correcting the concern and also reducing the risk for others preventatively. If you are to continue with your analogy, is would be similar to finding out the broken leg occurred because there were stairs that hadn't been removed of ice causing a public hazard. It may not fix the present break, but it could ease and slow future breaks from happening. In therapy, when dealing with the present "break," knowing a personal history can be extremely helpful. Let's take anxiety for a second. When I have a client in there and if I only focus on the anxiety symptoms currently at play, I may miss the root cause for the actual pain. It would be like assuming there's a break without an x-ray or questioning the patient beyond asking if they have pain. You may be right to give them a cast and some medication...but you could also be very wrong and miss something that has similar symptoms. So several clients with similar anxiety symptoms may have very different root causes. One may have very little family, social, or personal stressors, but still struggle with a general anxious bout. For them medications and CBT may be helpful. Another may be having anxiety tied to earlier abuse or trauma concerns. For them a therapy model that takes PTSD or trauma in account may be better. Another may have built up anxiety based off of a specific concern. Another may be trying to control all their environment to manage their fears of chaos...only to be enabling their anxiety voices. Some have what I call "common sense" anxiety....where it's tied to a specific event that causes them pain in someway and fosters a sense of insecurity in their life. Helping them change their environment to something more safe may ease their anxiety most. And yes, that last one could include removing social media outlets....especially if they tend towards heavy comparisons or something.  

 

Quote

Anyways, I don't even know how this is even an argument?  How on earth is this debatable whether more counselors are needed a BYU or not?  How is one sitting on a message board formulating arguments for why less counselors are needed at BYU?  Why are we discussing cell phones, elevation, opioids, millennials resiliency, etc.?  Why are so many fighting like crazy to deny the statistics of higher mental illness and suicide rates in Utah? Where are we today?

I think the concern is oversimplifying a solution or making this a problem of area, religion, institution, etc. I personally think the school could benefit by more therapists, as would several universities in the area. BUT I would want to make sure that the system for giving therapy, referring, understanding of resources, etc were balanced and measured as to create the most effective system for public health at a university. I can't answer the idea of less counselors because I would definitely not be a proponent of that one. But on questions of discussing contributing factors and pushing back on the mental illness/suicide rates in UT, I think part of the concern is by overfocusing  on a specific area in the US it isolated the problem and assumes a level of uniqueness that may be wrong or at least overly focused on. This has three problems that I can see. 1) It can lead to fixes that aren't as effective because they're focused on the wrong thing or only a portion of the problem....or miss the problem all together. 2)  It can isolate the issues an make it appear a niche experience 3) it can (and has been) used to cement stereotypes or beliefs about a population that isn't actually true. 

 

With luv,

BD 

Edited by BlueDreams
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15 hours ago, lostindc said:

I am definitely taking a step back from this thread for a minute.  I want to say that I believe you posters care about each of these students and those struggling with mental illness.  I believe we all want the best for these kids.  We may disagree in regards to causes and solutions, but we probably don’t disagree about wanting these students to achieve the best possible outcome.  I can’t imagine the nightmare that girl lived and I can’t imagine the nightmare her loved ones are now living.  Their daughter is gone.  Life is extremely humbling and challenges are unpredicatable and even unrelenting.  

In my younger years, a older member of the Church who was briefly my Bishops, and I also knew him the majority of my life was one of the kindest individuals I’ve ever encountered.  Still, I can imagine but a small handful of people I’ve know to display his kindness.  He made time for many of my peers that suffered through various mental health struggles.  Always available, always a shoulder to lean on.  This exists in the Church...still.  While these individuals still exist we know that quite a few that struggle are in good hands.  I hoping for the best.

And there still are. Its a comfort to know that I can name a bishop and a stake president presiding over  a student YSA stake/ward who equally fit the bill of the bishop you mentioned. And I work with many bishops in my job who are paying for therapy for their members through the church funds, who want to know what's occurring with their clients and are wanting to just do the best by them. 

I know there's things we can do to make things better. There always is. But I find hope in the good people - therapists, leaders, family members, friends - who are making a difference in the lives of those whose heart and minds are struggling.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited by BlueDreams
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For those interested in the subject of research, there is info here and below on some:

Quote

In order to know who is most at risk and to prevent suicide, scientists need to understand the role of long-term factors (such as childhood experiences) as well as more immediate factors like mental health and recent life events. Researchers also are looking at how genes can either increase risk or make someone more resilient to loss and hardships.

Recent findings from NIMH funded research are listed in the Research and Statistics section below but NIMH also is funding a number of ongoing studies related to suicide.

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/suicide-prevention/index.shtml#part_153180

https://report.nih.gov/categorical_spending_project_listing.aspx?FY=2015&ARRA=N&DCat=Suicide

Tons of gov funded research in this one, looks like Utah is currently involved in genetic analysis of high risk families.  I can see the advantage Utah might have over other areas for such research.

Treatments and therapies discussed here:

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/suicide-prevention/index.shtml#part_153179

Quote

Research has shown that there are multiple risk factors for suicide and that these factors may vary with age, gender, physical and mental well-being, and with individual experiences. Treatments and therapies for people with suicidal thoughts or actions will vary as well. NIMH has focused research on strategies that have worked well for mental health conditions related to suicide such as depression and anxiety

 

Edited by Calm

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