Jump to content
bsjkki

BYU suicide and campus mental health appt. wait times

Recommended Posts

Just now, Avatar4321 said:

Good article. I know in my own experience that if it weren’t for the gospel my anxiety and depression would be far worse than it is. I probably would’ve been dead by now otherwise.

My son just recently completed a two-year Young Church Service Mission.  He has bipolar disorder.  Before that he was diagnosed with celiac disease, and before that mono.  The last many years of his life have been rough.  However, he has repeatedly and emphatically expressed appreciation for the Restored Gospel, and for the Church, and for his missionary service, in helping him become stabilized emotionally and intellectually and spiritually, in giving him a sense of purpose, in giving him an opportunity to serve others, and so on.

To be sure, he has also needed counseling and medication.  I am grateful for all of these things.  They have saved my son's life.  They have made him a stronger and healthier and happier person, despite facing many challenges.

So when a critic swoops in and presumes to lecture us about the various flaws and shortcomings of the Church and its efforts to improve the lives of its members, and when the lecture is rhetorically based on a suicide, I tend to find that a bit irritating. 

The Church is is working very, very hard at fulfilling its mandates.  And in many, many ways, it is succeeding.  Of course it can improve.  Of course it should improve.  But the drive-by hectoring doesn't help.  The exploitation of suicides doesn't help.

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, lostindc said:

Why do we need to guess what is causing these high rates of suicide and depression in Utah and subsequently the LDS membership base?

Because research isn’t there yet, as much as outside the Church as inside...if you are aware of research that demonstrates definite causes of suicide and how one can tell what applies in a particular case, please post it  

And it is not as if the high altitude or pollution or smoking or whatever doesn’t involve church culture suicide connections are claimed only by Utahns or church members, so I am not understanding the ridicule of it  

Plus it is not the responsibility of the Church to keep track of mortality rates or other medical issues  It would be, imo, a violation of privacy if they were to do so.  The Church is not a government and should not be treated as such  

OTOH, I think it would be a great idea for them to provide funding...as they have in part through research being done by BYU professors  

I haven’t kept track of LDS Social Services recently, but a number of years ago I was talking to the director who had been hired with the intent to get better trained therapists in higher numbers in wider areas, at that time at least the Church was putting a ton of money into improving the network.  I also found out about several programs on community levels, such as support in Las Vegas area of boys who were kicked out of the polygamous community there. 

They weren’t publicizing them though but just getting on with the work and often still don’t, so I can understand why people think they aren’t doing much. 

 

Edited by Calm
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've listened. I think they're wrong. The girl in question had a long history of mental illness according to neighbors. Going to a campus clinic is absolutely the wrong thing for her and potentially being in a high stress environment was the wrong thing. Students are asking for additional counselors because they are under the mistaken belief that BYU counselors are the only options. 

what?  You post on mormon*****.***, can you start a thread and post your ideas there and carry this debate with that crew, I am interested to see how your argument stands.

Share this post


Link to post
50 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Well, you stated that you hoped they would add therapists.  They already have more than 2x and as many as 5x more therapists on staff. That fact alone seems impressive to me. 

I really don't think the number of therapists is the only measure of what BYU is doing to help. There are bishops that can be a source of support and in the case of need for more professional support, they can refer to outside agencies and provide funding. 

I said pretty clearly that I'm supportive of providing mental health treatment. I'm just pointing out that the availability of therapists at the student counseling center is not the only (or even most accurate) measure of the University's success.

 

 

I was thinking something similar. As members of the church we have resources that other people don’t have. We do have bishops, stake presidents, quorum presidents, relief society presidents, home ministers, ministering angels, the gift of the Holy Ghost etc.

we have a lot of resources and if one person can’t help us we can send them to someone else who can

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, lostindc said:

what?  You post on mormon*****.***, can you start a thread and post your ideas there and carry this debate with that crew, I am interested to see how your argument stands.

Sorry I've no idea what you are saying here. If you're talking about Dehlin's site, then honestly I think most have an axe to grind. I'm not too interested in debate there and (IMO) most there aren't interested in discussing the ideas just in promoting one view typically to justify their belief of how bad Mormons are.

I think that what's frustrating here is that you keeping making claims, often easy to falsify claims, yet refuse to engage with the counterarguments. I get you think the Church has a duty to significantly increase the number of therapists at BYU. You seem unwilling to even acknowledge the other issues involved - especially the services available for BYU students outside of BYU. That is you seem locked on a single solution.

Edited by clarkgoble
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Sorry I've no idea what you are saying here. If you're talking about Dehlin's site, then honestly I think most have an axe to grind. I'm not too interested in debate there and (IMO) most there aren't interested in discussing the ideas just in promoting one view typically to justify their belief of how bad Mormons are.

I think that what's frustrating here is that you keeping making claims, often easy to falsify claims, yet refuse to engage with the counterarguments. I get you think the Church has a duty to significantly increase the number of therapists at BYU. You seem unwilling to even acknowledge the other issues involved - especially the services available for BYU students outside of BYU. That is you seem locked on a single solution.

Dehlin still has a message board?  Mormon discussions edits nothing except personal info.  Post over there, you already do and many of the conversations can be heard.

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Dehlin still has a message board?  Mormon discussions edits nothing except personal info.  Post over there, you already do and many of the conversations can be heard.

I did. I was ganged up upon and more or less driven out. Very rarely were the ideas engaged with. Instead I got sarcasm, anger and worse. Not to mention a double standard of when I replied in kind. It's one thing to simply disagree or find an argument unsatisfactory. Things went far beyond that. I'll fully admit I lost my temper a few times - usually after unwise posting after a sleepless night with sick kids - but I've zero interest in going back.

But again I don't see that you've addressed any of the points people have raised. I get that we disagree. But what's the point of discussion if you don't want to discuss? (Certainly some people have made unkind comments - I wish people here would not do that. I hated it when it happened to me at that other board and I don't think the moderators should allow it here either)

Edited by clarkgoble
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
53 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Yes the variables are different for the depression era compared to now, but I bet research can show that the responses are similar.  

You asked, "How do you treat the problem if you don't know what is causing it?," and I reply, when a doctor is setting someone's broken leg do they focus on what caused the broken leg or is the doctor focused on setting the broken leg so the healing process can happen and then other measures can be taken?

But by that analogy BYU is doing okay according to the articles as they have available therapists that can see clients for walkins immediately  where they lack is long term, which would be the finding of the causes just as a doctor might think it important to check the cause if a patient had a history of frequent breaking of bones  

Depression shouldn’t be viewed like treating a broken bone except perhaps in cases of crisis where the individual needs to be hospitalized immediately.   Using the same model is not helpful and can cause greater stigma and frustration when people don’t respond quickly or at all to treatment (speaking from personal experience as well as research).  Multiple factors of individual mental and physical health and environmental physical and social factors interact over an extended period of time in most cases of extreme depression  Therapy won’t work well if there are physical factors and drugs are less effective without therapy  There are those who aren’t helped much by drugs, but ECT can help dramatically (as in the case of my daughter, she said it was if a switch had been thrown; ECT has an 80% success rate btw, better than medications).

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Dehlin still has a message board?  Mormon discussions edits nothing except personal info.  Post over there, you already do and many of the conversations can be heard.

Why are you trying to coax him to another board?  What's wrong with this one?

What's wrong with the points raised in this thread (the ones you are largely refusing to address)?

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Sorry I've no idea what you are saying here. If you're talking about Dehlin's site, then honestly I think most have an axe to grind. I'm not too interested in debate there and (IMO) most there aren't interested in discussing the ideas just in promoting one view typically to justify their belief of how bad Mormons are.

I think that what's frustrating here is that you keeping making claims, often easy to falsify claims, yet refuse to engage with the counterarguments. I get you think the Church has a duty to significantly increase the number of therapists at BYU. You seem unwilling to even acknowledge the other issues involved - especially the services available for BYU students outside of BYU. That is you seem locked on a single solution.

I’m concerned with the ten week wait for mental health services. I feel this is an identified problem that should be fixed. I don’t think recognizing it as a problem means people are bashing the church. 

Maybe they need in person triage appointments to figure out if people are stable enough to wait or need to be fast tracked. I’m not sure the student in a mental health crisis can determine this on their own.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

No problem. I was actually hoping you'd chime in. I didn't realize you were so recent out of BYU though.

If you don't mind me picking your mind, do you know if BYU therapists use cognitive behavioral therapy? I'd heard they don't. Even though there are studies showing it's as effective as anti-depressants. I've also heard that therapists don't address other issues such as dietary or medical causes. Given that college students are notorious with their consumption of unhealthy food, I'd think emphasizing dietary changes would have a reasonable impact. 

The worry I have about the BYU clinic is just that it's limited. That is those in serious distress won't get the same treatment as say over at Mountainland.

Yeah, it feels longer since I graduated to me too :P

 

On CBT, It depends the therapist, their training/focus, and their general preference. Most therapist are more eclectic and less purists with any one given model...in that they take from a number of therapy models...though most still have a favorite. That said, I know many BYU therapists do use CBT approaches in therapy, especially for specific problems or concerns. I, personally, use CBT when it fits the concern. And I did as well when at BYU. Since I'm also dealing with relationhips more often than the average therapist, my training and focus still are more with models that fit with working/healing "systems" (or the parameter of relationships). CBT has been modified for that, but it's not its natural arena. I ergo enjoy other models as well and have seen success with them, such as narrative and experiential techniques. And that includes with some of my depression/anxiety cases. Reframing their experiences and helping them change their interactions in their relationships can sometimes move them out of a pattern of thinking/behavior that leaves them stuck in maladaptive cycles. Of course one of the biggest indicators that therapy will be successful is simply a therapeutic alliance. Ie. fostering a good working relationship where the client feels safe and having the same goals in mind. Which is why if someone has had a poor therapy experience, it's best to go and seek another that may fit better or to try and get short pre-interviews with them to feel out where they lean and your comfort level with them. 

Dietary and medical causes can definitely effect people. But diet changes can be hard to promote in therapy. I'm a health freak and believe in the power of good food....but that's easier said than done with people. Still, with depression/anxiety, one of the most common initial recommendations is regular exercise of some sort because of its correlated effects on mood.  

 

In the student clinic that was open to the public but entailed several byu students (the comprehensive clinic), severe cases were screened and referred to outside services that were more likely to fit their needs. Which is why I knew about a number of the resources. I'm not sure how that works at the main therapy center at BYU.

 

With luv,

BD

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I’m concerned with the ten week wait for mental health services. I feel this is an identified problem that should be fixed. I don’t think recognizing it as a problem means people are bashing the church. 

Maybe they need in person triage appointments to figure out if people are stable enough to wait or need to be fast tracked. I’m not sure the student in a mental health crisis can determine this on their own.

This is exactly what CAPS offers. The fact that the Trib didn't bother to report that is troubling.  Maybe inaccurate reporting of the resources available further contributes to despair. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Sorry I've no idea what you are saying here. If you're talking about Dehlin's site, then honestly I think most have an axe to grind. I'm not too interested in debate there and (IMO) most there aren't interested in discussing the ideas just in promoting one view typically to justify their belief of how bad Mormons are.

I think that what's frustrating here is that you keeping making claims, often easy to falsify claims, yet refuse to engage with the counterarguments. I get you think the Church has a duty to significantly increase the number of therapists at BYU. You seem unwilling to even acknowledge the other issues involved - especially the services available for BYU students outside of BYU. That is you seem locked on a single solution.

Sorry, I couldn’t finish my response.  Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.  Our views never matched on either site and you continue to believe you actually provided some sort of refutation to my arguments.  I guess we can all dream big.  

 

Still, you should head back over to mormondiscussions, you will definitely receive a bunch of criticism to your arguments, but that site is less one sided than here.  

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I’m concerned with the ten week wait for mental health services. I feel this is an identified problem that should be fixed. I don’t think recognizing it as a problem means people are bashing the church.

My understanding was that this was misreported and was for repeated appointments. BlueDreams above suggests that they do referrals over to other locations such as Mountainlands. If so, then presumably those waiting are those who have been triaged as not having as great of needs and not at threat of suicide. Those who can't wait can walk in at any time and be seen immediately as I've noted several times in this thread. Those with a chronic condition almost certainly shouldn't be going to a college clinic but engaging with a dedicated mental health care worker - presumably via Mountainlands if they are living in Provo.

To be clear, I think BYU should do a better job getting this information out there. Although the flier I linked to earlier listing resources apparently is given out at the clinic. So people in forums or social media claiming they went to the clinic but didn't know about resources like Mountainlands may be in error. (Although it's certainly plausible someone didn't give out the flier or they didn't notice it)

In any case, no one has to wait ten weeks if they need care. That was what I was showing. You can make an appointment at Mountainlands for much quicker times, especially if you are under stress.

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Maybe they need in person triage appointments to figure out if people are stable enough to wait or need to be fast tracked. I’m not sure the student in a mental health crisis can determine this on their own.

I took BlueDreams above to be saying that's exactly what they are doing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Still, you should head back over to mormondiscussions, you will definitely receive a bunch of criticism to your arguments, but that site is less one sided than here.  

LOL. I was there for months and I was literally the only believing Mormon there except for a few days when Don Bradley showed up and the occasional post and run of an obvious quack who was LDS (or at least was pretending to be). Again I was driven off the forum, so why on earth would I bother to go back. I also think you're wrong about here. While some people are sarcastic and say unkind things (which I decry) that's most of what I experienced there. Here there are many unbelievers who post and are engaged with. Some of my favorite posters here clearly think Joseph made up everything. I regularly engage with them even though I disagree with them. Again, the whole time I was there I was the only believer there consistently.

7 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.  Our views never matched on either site and you continue to believe you actually provided some sort of refutation to my arguments.  

How could I tell when you never made a counterargument here in this thread? Why be surprised that I believe that if you don't respond to what I've said? Why do you only want to respond over there at a place that clearly doesn't want to engage with people?

 

Edited by clarkgoble

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Why are you trying to coax him to another board?  What's wrong with this one?

What's wrong with the points raised in this thread (the ones you are largely refusing to address)?

Thanks,

-Smac

I wonder why you never post on that board?  Why not go over to that board to continue the discussions where no editing/deleting/freezing will occur?  

 

As as far as addressing any of the points you posters raised, provide me the first point and I will address.  If you haven’t noticed, it’s many posters against one.

Share this post


Link to post
41 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've listened. I think they're wrong. The girl in question had a long history of mental illness according to neighbors. Going to a campus clinic is absolutely the wrong thing for her and potentially being in a high stress environment was the wrong thing. That's not to say if she was feeling suicidal she shouldn't have gone to the clinic. As I noted walk ins and particularly walk ins in immediate stress are taken. However it seems these were long term serious conditions and she almost certainly needed long term treatment and likely withdrawal from school.

Students are asking for additional counselors because they are under the mistaken belief that BYU counselors are the only options. Now I do believe BYU should better publicize the resources available but that's different from what you've said. I actually also don't mind the idea of increasing counselors either, but think it wrong as the only solution, and don't think it addresses questions of how therapists are treating students. More significantly I don't think it'll solve the problem.

I definitely agree with this. It seems clear that many people aren't aware of the resources available.

No problem. I was actually hoping you'd chime in. I didn't realize you were so recent out of BYU though.

If you don't mind me picking your mind, do you know if BYU therapists use cognitive behavioral therapy? I'd heard they don't. Even though there are studies showing it's as effective as anti-depressants. I've also heard that therapists don't address other issues such as dietary or medical causes. Given that college students are notorious with their consumption of unhealthy food, I'd think emphasizing dietary changes would have a reasonable impact. 

The worry I have about the BYU clinic is just that it's limited. That is those in serious distress won't get the same treatment as say over at Mountainland.

CBT is the most heavily researched modality, but largely because it lends itself to manualized, short term treatment. Unfortunately, the way most experimental research is structured i.e. by graduate students and faculty on an academic year timetable, this makes it much easier to investigate and rule out confounding effects. 

Like BlueDreams points out, the most reliable meta-analyses of effective factors in talk therapy point to the therapist-client relationship as more important than any particular modality. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, lostindc said:

Clark, I can't today guy.  I can't humor your posts and your ideas on what will fix the problems.  Please listen to the students asking for more counselors.  It appears that a young girl just killed herself at BYU and the students are asking for additional counselors because it takes a long time to get into treatment.  We have the funding Clark.  We really do.  Okay?

Wow. condescend much?

You can’t humor legitimate questions? Then why are you here? All we can do is humor each other’s comments here. None of us have power to do anything other than that.

 It’s easy to blame the church or BYU and propose doing something that feels good without ever bothering to ask ourselves whether it would have changed the outcome at all. It’s a good way to feel good without actually doing something.

how about we find out why she did this to the best of our abilities and address that actual problem instead of pretending throwing money at a problem fixes it? Don’t you think doing what we can to prevent this from happening again is far more productive than attacking the Church with no evidence?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
57 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds hard. Can’t I just Use heroin?

No it’s Zion or bust.

Edited by Avatar4321

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

LOL. I was there for months and I was literally the only believing Mormon there except for a few days when Don Bradley showed up and the occasional post and run of an obvious quack who was LDS (or at least was pretending to be). Again I was driven off the forum, so why on earth would I bother to go back. I also think you're wrong about here. While some people are sarcastic and say unkind things (which I decry) that's most of what I experienced there. Here there are many unbelievers who post and are engaged with. Some of my favorite posters here clearly think Joseph made up everything. I regularly engage with them even though I disagree with them. Again, the whole time I was there I was the only believer there consistently.

How could I tell when you never made a counterargument here in this thread? Why be surprised that I believe that if you don't respond to what I've said? Why do you only want to respond over there at a place that clearly doesn't want to engage with people?

 

What do you want me to counter argue Clark?  I love how you wish to argue against the idea that BYU needs more counselors and Utah and BYU do not have suicide and mental health issues, beyond many other states and universities. 

But yes Clark, what shall we debate today?

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Wow. condescend much?

You can’t humor legitimate questions? Then why are you here? All we can do is humor each other’s comments here. None of us have power to do anything other than that.

 It’s easy to blame the church or BYU and propose doing something that feels good without ever bothering to ask ourselves whether it would have changed the outcome at all. It’s a good way to feel good without actually doing something.

how about we find out why she did this to the best of our abilities and address that actual problem instead of pretending throwing money at a problem fixes it? Don’t you think doing what we can to prevent this from happening again is far more productive than attacking the Church with no evidence?

 

 

Okay, so your point is to establish why she did this, and work on providing solutions to avoid this from happening again?

What do you propose we do to research why this happened and who is responsible for figuring out why this continues to happen at BYU and in the state of Utah?

 

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

LOL. I was there for months and I was literally the only believing Mormon there except for a few days when Don Bradley showed up and the occasional post and run of an obvious quack who was LDS (or at least was pretending to be). Again I was driven off the forum, so why on earth would I bother to go back. I also think you're wrong about here. While some people are sarcastic and say unkind things (which I decry) that's most of what I experienced there. Here there are many unbelievers who post and are engaged with. Some of my favorite posters here clearly think Joseph made up everything. I regularly engage with them even though I disagree with them. Again, the whole time I was there I was the only believer there consistently.

How could I tell when you never made a counterargument here in this thread? Why be surprised that I believe that if you don't respond to what I've said? Why do you only want to respond over there at a place that clearly doesn't want to engage with people?

 

It's wild you can laugh today Clark.  You seem to want to argue instead of address the issues.  This is a game of apologetics for many posters here.  The position to start, in this case, is that BYU can't do wrong and to figure out ways to maintain this position.  Very few are objective.  I will follow the argument where it leads.  In fact, if you haven't noticed, I've called out a large portion of the outspoken inactive and exMormons this past week.  I can take it on the chin, I can be objective, you cannot and that's based on your posting history. 

BTW, no one drove you off from MD, they just refuted pretty much most of your arguments and you became frustrated and lost your temper several times.  Eventually, you took your ball and went home to a safe space.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, lostindc said:

It's wild you can laugh today Clark.  You seem to want to argue instead of address the issues.  This is a game of apologetics for many posters here.  

Says the guy who is exploiting a suicide to criticize a religious group he dislikes.

It poisons the well, you see.

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

The position to start, in this case, is that BYU can't do wrong and to figure out ways to maintain this position.  

Poppycock.  Nobody is saying "that BYU can't do wrong."

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

Very few are objective.  I will follow the argument where it leads.  In fact, if you haven't noticed, I've called out a large portion of the outspoken inactive and exMormons this past week.  I can take it on the chin, I can be objective, you cannot and that's based on your posting history.

Umm...

1 minute ago, lostindc said:

BTW, no one drove you off from MD, they just refuted pretty much most of your arguments and you became frustrated and lost your temper several times.  Eventually, you took your ball and went home to a safe space.  

You're just taunting now.

This is you being "objective," is it?

-Smac

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
29 minutes ago, lostindc said:

What do you want me to counter argue Clark?  I love how you wish to argue against the idea that BYU needs more counselors and Utah and BYU do not have suicide and mental health issues, beyond many other states and universities. 

But yes Clark, what shall we debate today?

I gave arguments. The traditional thing is a discussion is to explain why the arguments are wrong or fail to address some key component of the problem. So for instance when you raised suicide rates in the depression I noted the different environment but also the very different resources like anti-depressants applied to the problem. I noted that keeping people in a stressful situation aggravating their condition is likely worse than leaving college. I noted that for serious cases students should go to non-BYU resources which you've failed to even acknowledge exist. etc.

But I'll drop out of the discussion. You clearly have your opinion but aren't interested in discussing the reasons for our differing opinions. That's fine of course. That's not meant as an attack on you. I'm just not quite clear as to why you keep posting responses to people that don't actually respond to their points. It seems kind of pointless.

29 minutes ago, lostindc said:

It's wild you can laugh today Clark.  You seem to want to argue instead of address the issues.  This is a game of apologetics for many posters here.  The position to start, in this case, is that BYU can't do wrong and to figure out ways to maintain this position. 

I really am thinking you don't even read what I wrote. I explicitly said I'm fine with BYU increasing the number of therapists but don't think it'll resolve the issue. I've then explicitly noted many things we could do to address the problem. (None of which you've discussed except to dismiss them without giving any explanation of why beyond saying it's what students want) As for addressing the issue, the way you address an issue is in the real world not on a discussion forum which is for *discussions*. i.e. arguments.

You have no idea what I do in my day to day life regarding people's mental health. I am however very confident that your saying BYU ought increase the number of therapists on obscure discussion forum will have no effect on BYU increasing the number of therapists. So it seems odd to say you wish to address the issue rather than argue. As for what I've done to address the issue rather than discuss it here, I used a rather well known LDS blog to promote the local resources for mental health that many including the news reports have not done.

As for BYU doing wrong, if you go back through my comments you'll see lots of criticisms not the least of which is not publicizing enough the resources outside of the BYU like Mountainland.

29 minutes ago, lostindc said:

BTW, no one drove you off from MD, they just refuted pretty much most of your arguments and you became frustrated and lost your temper several times.  Eventually, you took your ball and went home to a safe space.  

Umm. No. I'll admit to losing my temper. I even apologized for that although there were mitigating circumstances in my health that I didn't disclose.  Although you conveniently leave out what I lost my temper about and it wasn't arguments. I consistently acknowledged where public evidence wasn't in my favor and that the best explanation isn't the Mormon perspective. I've explained why that doesn't address evidence that isn't public. I did this enough I'm surprised you'd say that.

If you want, I'm more than happy to take this to PM and point to exactly the posts that caused me to leave.

Edited by clarkgoble

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, smac97 said:

My son just recently completed a two-year Young Church Service Mission.  He has bipolar disorder.  Before that he was diagnosed with celiac disease, and before that mono.  The last many years of his life have been rough.  However, he has repeatedly and emphatically expressed appreciation for the Restored Gospel, and for the Church, and for his missionary service, in helping him become stabilized emotionally and intellectually and spiritually, in giving him a sense of purpose, in giving him an opportunity to serve others, and so on.

To be sure, he has also needed counseling and medication.  I am grateful for all of these things.  They have saved my son's life.  They have made him a stronger and healthier and happier person, despite facing many challenges.

So when a critic swoops in and presumes to lecture us about the various flaws and shortcomings of the Church and its efforts to improve the lives of its members, and when the lecture is rhetorically based on a suicide, I tend to find that a bit irritating. 

The Church is is working very, very hard at fulfilling its mandates.  And in many, many ways, it is succeeding.  Of course it can improve.  Of course it should improve.  But the drive-by hectoring doesn't help.  The exploitation of suicides doesn't help.

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac, 

BYU students are asking to have access to counselors.  At several universities where I worked, a student could become established with a counselor within approximately two weeks.  This is a reasonable period of time, instead of ten weeks like BYU.  Fortunately, I worked/studied in states that don't have these significantly high mental illness and suicide rates.  Utah is in crisis mode according to the CDC (https://health.usnews.com/health-care/articles/2018-03-22/cdc-probes-troubling-rise-in-suicide-among-utah-teens).

Drive-by hectoring isn't occurring, rather, some of us posters are shocked at Clark and others that minimize the horrific things occurring.  If BYU students are telling you they have a potential solution to their mental health issues and common knowledge accepts that counseling improves the lives of those suffering with mental illness, then why not try?  We have the funds.  

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×