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Maidservant

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Baghdad, Iraq

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12 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Wow.  Did a Wiki lookup and found the article on them to be very interesting.  Their "take" on Lucifer is quite unique, and is apparently why Muslims consider them devil worshippers, which they most certainly are not.

 

 

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Canada took in a special cohort of Yazidi refugees recently. One of the receiving cities is Calgary, as we have a very experienced and well-regarded refugee resettlement NGO here. I'm working with them in my capacity as a refugee and immigration policy analyst and researcher. Here's an interesting article on them if interested.

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21 hours ago, halconero said:

Canada took in a special cohort of Yazidi refugees recently. One of the receiving cities is Calgary, as we have a very experienced and well-regarded refugee resettlement NGO here. I'm working with them in my capacity as a refugee and immigration policy analyst and researcher. Here's an interesting article on them if interested.

Horrible.

This is the kind of thing that has changed my view of Islam over the years.  I used to have a great deal of respect for Islam, as a faith that men live by, but that respect has gradually turned to comtempt.  Since this is a potential derail of the thread, I invite no-one to respond to this my post.  But I had to say it.

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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Horrible.

This is the kind of thing that has changed my view of Islam over the years.  I used to have a great deal of respect for Islam, as a faith that men live by, but that respect has gradually turned to comtempt.  Since this is a potential derail of the thread, I invite no-one to respond to this my post.  But I had to say it.

Just to be contrary.......

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Just to be contrary.......

I expected no less! :D 

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On 12/6/2018 at 7:37 AM, Stargazer said:

Horrible.

This is the kind of thing that has changed my view of Islam over the years.  I used to have a great deal of respect for Islam, as a faith that men live by, but that respect has gradually turned to comtempt.  Since this is a potential derail of the thread, I invite no-one to respond to this my post.  But I had to say it.

I'm going to be slightly contrary, and say that it's important we identify the particular thread of Islam most at fault for this type of violence - Wahhabism, also called Salafism by its followers. I won't go into its history much, it's easily searchable, but in my experience with foreign affairs, study of religion, and work with refugees, it's the ideological brain child of most Islamic terrorism. It's spawn include the Islamic State, Al Qaeda, and Hamas among others. Identifying the strain allows us to thread the very important needle of accurately identifying the problem within, something others tend to sweep under the rug, while not mitigating potential allies in the fight. This was the advice given to me by Eran Lehrman when I was in Israel on a fact finding mission and policy trip. He emphasized the need to understand what's occurring as not a clash of civilizations, but a civil war within a civilization, one rooted in the idea of the soul's destiny, with spillover effects hurting everyone else.

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For me personally, it is painful to read articles such as this. A few of us knew back in 2002 and 2003 what kind of humanitarian disaster would follow an Invasion of Iraq by the United States. It was all too obvious. But we were labeled unpatriotic.

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On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:19 AM, halconero said:

I'm going to be slightly contrary, and say that it's important we identify the particular thread of Islam most at fault for this type of violence - Wahhabism, also called Salafism by its followers. I won't go into its history much, it's easily searchable, but in my experience with foreign affairs, study of religion, and work with refugees, it's the ideological brain child of most Islamic terrorism. It's spawn include the Islamic State, Al Qaeda, and Hamas among others. Identifying the strain allows us to thread the very important needle of accurately identifying the problem within, something others tend to sweep under the rug, while not mitigating potential allies in the fight. This was the advice given to me by Eran Lehrman when I was in Israel on a fact finding mission and policy trip. He emphasized the need to understand what's occurring as not a clash of civilizations, but a civil war within a civilization, one rooted in the idea of the soul's destiny, with spillover effects hurting everyone else.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't believe that Wahhabism is the only strain of Islam that has a problem.  

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20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't believe that Wahhabism is the only strain of Islam that has a problem.  

Which others would you posit are a primary source for problems? The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, Indonesian Mujahedeen Council, Taliban, Sipah Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Hizbul Mujahideen area all derived from Wahhabi/Salafi/Deobandi Islam. I suppose you could make a case for Qutbism. More than anything, it is entirely wrong and reductionist to ignore the various branches, schools, derivations of Islam when trying to pinpoint ideological trigger points for Islamic terrorism.

Furthermore, it's a useless counter-terrorism policymaking exercise. The counter-terrorism policymaking community (of which I am somewhat related to via my specializations in immigration and foreign policy) doesn't do this. We identify ideological schools within Islam, not Islam itself, and it's allowed us to be much more effective in developing intelligence, counter-intelligence, and military responses to Islamic terrorism. Many of these responses rely on identifying correct schools and ideologies, as our ground game relies hugely on human intelligence actors among domestic and foreign Muslim allies.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 7:38 PM, halconero said:

Which others would you posit are a primary source for problems? The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, Indonesian Mujahedeen Council, Taliban, Sipah Sahaba, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and Hizbul Mujahideen area all derived from Wahhabi/Salafi/Deobandi Islam. I suppose you could make a case for Qutbism. More than anything, it is entirely wrong and reductionist to ignore the various branches, schools, derivations of Islam when trying to pinpoint ideological trigger points for Islamic terrorism.

Furthermore, it's a useless counter-terrorism policymaking exercise. The counter-terrorism policymaking community (of which I am somewhat related to via my specializations in immigration and foreign policy) doesn't do this. We identify ideological schools within Islam, not Islam itself, and it's allowed us to be much more effective in developing intelligence, counter-intelligence, and military responses to Islamic terrorism. Many of these responses rely on identifying correct schools and ideologies, as our ground game relies hugely on human intelligence actors among domestic and foreign Muslim allies.

I'm not arguing that we should lump all of Islam together, any more than I would argue that all of Christendom should be lumped together. All I'm saying is that Islam seems to have a more problematic relationship to violence, regardless of which flavor of Islam is adhered to.  It's my feeling, informed by news.  Also informed by research.  Check the Pew Research survey covering "Attitudes Toward Extremism Among Muslim Publics".  Sure approval of suicide bombing might be a minority view, but the size of the minority is significant!  It's not just a tiny minority of extremists, it's a very respectable minority verging on a majority in some places.  At least in the countries surveyed.  This is NOT a healthy situation.

You can argue, if you want, that it's not that bad all over.  But so what?  I am not making policy, I am observing something highly dangerous.  So go ahead and do what you have to do as a policymaker or influencer!  I understand that there are nuances.  But it doesn't change my feelings of suspicion towards Islam.

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This doesn't have anything to do with Latter-day Saint issues, but it does relate to the thread to a certain degree.  Especially in connection with a few things I've said, and an exchange between @halconero and myself.

I follow the YouTube interviewer, Dave Rubin, and he just had an Australia imam on for an hour-long interview.  This is Imam Mohammad Tawhidi, who goes by the Twitter handle @imamofpeace.  He is a reformist, and apparently the extremists don't like him. I am so pleased that someone like him dares to speak out!  A recent Tweet:

"My life in the last 72 hours: 1. Pakistan’s Islamic Government threatens to block Twitter if it doesn’t censor me and my friends. 2. Facebook banned me for 30 days because I posted the ‘Jihad Bells’ Christmas song ridiculing Jihadists. 3. Mufti issues death Fatwa against me."

Access the interview here:

 

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On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

I'm not arguing that we should lump all of Islam together, any more than I would argue that all of Christendom should be lumped together.

How do you reconcile the quote above with the quote below?

On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

All I'm saying is that Islam seems to have a more problematic relationship to violence, regardless of which flavor of Islam is adhered to. 

All I'm saying is that we can narrow down the ideological roots of most Islamic terrorist organizations to a specific ideology - Wahhabism. Please provide specific examples of groups which have carried out acts of terror with ideological roots outside that specific school of thought.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

It's my feeling, informed by news.  Also informed by research. 

Cool. Please provide me your research which shows the existence of Islamic terrorist groups with roots outside Wahhabism.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

You can argue, if you want, that it's not that bad all over.

Where did I argue that? I argued that we can narrow down the ideological roots of most Islamic terrorism to Wahhabi roots. You apparently disagree with this assertion.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

But so what?  I am not making policy, I am observing something highly dangerous. 

Your observations are too all-encompassing, and therefore not particularly precise or useful.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

So go ahead and do what you have to do as a policymaker or influencer!  I understand that there are nuances. 

Specificity is not nuance. It's accuracy and precision.

On 12/14/2018 at 5:07 PM, Stargazer said:

But it doesn't change my feelings of suspicion towards Islam.

What would change your feelings? Could information provided by a few experts in defence, counter terrorism, refugee resettlement, Islamic jurisprudence, and others change it? That's an honest question. I'm happy to provide additional input.

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

This doesn't have anything to do with Latter-day Saint issues, but it does relate to the thread to a certain degree.  Especially in connection with a few things I've said, and an exchange between @halconero and myself.

I follow the YouTube interviewer, Dave Rubin, and he just had an Australia imam on for an hour-long interview.  This is Imam Mohammad Tawhidi, who goes by the Twitter handle @imamofpeace.  He is a reformist, and apparently the extremists don't like him. I am so pleased that someone like him dares to speak out!  A recent Tweet

Imam Tawhidi isn't actually an Imam.

He claimed to have a Bachelor and Master of Theology from Al-Mustafa University. The University has no records of him completing either degree, but does have records of him dropping out, after being put on academic probation for failing grades.

He also doesn't have a mosque he preaches out of, and his 3 year twitter ministry never began with registering with the Australian National Imams Council.

In fact, it's largely indicated among the intelligence community that that "Imam" Tahwidi is being funded by Iran. Most of his work is directed against Sunni Muslims, which contrast with the Ayatollah's Shiite Government, and his actual seminarian (of which he received no formal recognition) is Grand Ayatollah Shirazi, with whom he maintains connections, who advocates very extremist views, and who is currently engaged in counter-Sunni militia building in Iraq, Syria, and abroad.

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Quote

What would change your feelings? Could information provided by a few experts in defence, counter terrorism, refugee resettlement, Islamic jurisprudence, and others change it? That's an honest question. I'm happy to provide additional input.

I doubt it.  I love everyone, including Muslims.  I wish everyone well, and hope they are happy in their chosen path.  As long as they leave others alone in their chosen paths.  

I spent a good hour writing down my feelings and thoughts concerning your response.  And then I deleted it all. 

Then I wrote something below this line of text, too, and I've just deleted it.  I guess if my "observations are too all-encompassing, and therefore not particularly precise or useful," I should just put a cork in.

Edited by Stargazer

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2 hours ago, halconero said:

Imam Tawhidi isn't actually an Imam.

He claimed to have a Bachelor and Master of Theology from Al-Mustafa University. The University has no records of him completing either degree, but does have records of him dropping out, after being put on academic probation for failing grades.

He also doesn't have a mosque he preaches out of, and his 3 year twitter ministry never began with registering with the Australian National Imams Council.

In fact, it's largely indicated among the intelligence community that that "Imam" Tahwidi is being funded by Iran. Most of his work is directed against Sunni Muslims, which contrast with the Ayatollah's Shiite Government, and his actual seminarian (of which he received no formal recognition) is Grand Ayatollah Shirazi, with whom he maintains connections, who advocates very extremist views, and who is currently engaged in counter-Sunni militia building in Iraq, Syria, and abroad.

So this man is a false imam, then.  Great! The most rational-sounding Muslim "cleric" I've listened to in a long time is a complete fake.

I suppose he's a Wahhabi, too?

I posted the video because I thought to myself: "Finally, a prominent Muslim who sounds like someone who might make a good neighbor!"  So he's a wolf in sheep's clothing then.

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