Life span on the decline.

[poptart]

Aaaaaand here we go...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-lifeexpectancy/life-expectancy-declines-seen-in-us-and-other-high-income-countries-idUSKCN1L723R

[The Nehor]

One way of saving Social Security.

[pogi]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

One way of saving Social Security.

From what I have read elsewhere, it is mostly due to increases in suicide rates - younger people dying effects the average life-span of a population.  It is not really that people are living shorter lives.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

From what I have read elsewhere, it is mostly due to increases in suicide rates - younger people dying effects the average life-span of a population.  It is not really that people are living shorter lives.

That and ODs are driving a lot of it. There is also a health problem sweeping the western world though which is contributing.

[poptart]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

One way of saving Social Security.

Not when the people who are supposed to be paying into it are the ones dying.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

From what I have read elsewhere, it is mostly due to increases in suicide rates - younger people dying effects the average life-span of a population.  It is not really that people are living shorter lives.

 

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That and ODs are driving a lot of it. There is also a health problem sweeping the western world though which is contributing.

What I noticed most was how it singled out white males.  It's something i've noticed more and more as time goes on, how isolated many of them are nowadays.  Look at how things are nowadays, wages haven't gone up, things are so expensive, families aren't what they used to be and compared to what previous generations had opportunity wise life now seems pretty bleak.  I know lots of people have issues but when you see 19-20 year old kids on the street you have to ask where are the parents?  Can't help but wonder if they were just shown the door at 18 and that was that.  Funny how the payback comes when the parents of children in those situations get to the point in life where they can't take care of themselves anymore and end up either on the street or if they're lucky a nursing home.  I've always noticed the few hispanic and asian residents nursing homes get usually have a lot of family visiting them, they're cared for.  Seriously, what's wrong with people here?  Can point the finger at religion and things outside of yourself all you like but as far as I can tell the biggest problem is right in front of them, looking at em in the mirror.

Edited November 30, 2018 by poptart

[smac97]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

From what I have read elsewhere, it is mostly due to increases in suicide rates - younger people dying effects the average life-span of a population.  It is not really that people are living shorter lives.

This does invite some ruminations on "suicide contagion," described here:

Quote

Suicide contagion is the exposure to suicide or suicidal behaviors within one's family, one's peer group, or through media reports of suicide and can result in an increase in suicide and suicidal behaviors. Direct and indirect exposure to suicidal behavior has been shown to precede an increase in suicidal behavior in persons at risk for suicide, especially in adolescents and young adults.

The risk for suicide contagion as a result of media reporting can be minimized by factual and concise media reports of suicide. Reports of suicide should not be repetitive, as prolonged exposure can increase the likelihood of suicide contagion. Suicide is the result of many complex factors; therefore media coverage should not report oversimplified explanations such as recent negative life events or acute stressors. Reports should not divulge detailed descriptions of the method used to avoid possible duplication. Reports should not glorify the victim and should not imply that suicide was effective in achieving a personal goal such as gaining media attention. In addition, information such as hotlines or emergency contacts should be provided for those at risk for suicide.

Following exposure to suicide or suicidal behaviors within one's family or peer group, suicide risk can be minimized by having family members, friends, peers, and colleagues of the victim evaluated by a mental health professional. Persons deemed at risk for suicide should then be referred for additional mental health services.

This is, of course, a society-wide problem and concern.  However, we have also seen a more specific set of people who have chosen to weaponize stories and claims and rhetoric about suicide against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  As a pressure tactic.  To turn people against the Church.  To turn members of the Church against the Church.  

We see this all the time, in fact.  We have seen in on this very board (see, for example, here).  Dan Reynolds has done it quite a bit (see, e.g., here ("He became more and more outspoken about gay rights within the Church – frequently calling attention to the high teenage suicide rate in Utah...")).

But perhaps the most appalling example has been the Mama Dragons (and Affirmation) and their irresponsible, unsubstantiated sensationalized public statements accusing the Church of causing suicide, which we have discussed extensively on this board.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Here: "Young, gay Mormons and suicide: The Salt Lake Tribune tries to do the real numbers" by Julia Duin.

Some excerpts;

Quote

 

It was one of the odder headlines I’ve seen lately: "Suicide fears, if not actual suicides, rise in wake of Mormon same-sex policy."

Underneath is a narrative of how last fall’s announcement of a revised policy on membership requirements for gay Mormons may have vastly increased Utah suicides.

After seven paragraphs came the whopper: The premise behind the story has no basis in fact. But it sounded true. It may still be true. Lots of observers think it's true.

We've heard this before: Truthiness strikes again. We can debate the facts later.

 

Meanwhile, LDS Church and its leaders and its doctrines and its members get beaten to a pulp by a mob of people who have been materially misled and egged on by fabricated data.

...

Quote

The lack of proof didn't matter to advocacy publications such as the Advocate, which ran with Montgomery’s claims nevertheless. So did Teen Vogue. They went with a story they believed to be true because, logically, it must be true, right?

These aren't the only news outlets that "ran with it":

• Months after LDS policy change, 32 Mormon youth have committed suicide
• Group fears youth suicides up since LDS policy about gay couples, children
• 'Shocking' Surge In Mormon LGBT Suicides Blamed On LDS Church Policy: Elders Respond To Rumored Connection ("A recent surge in suicides among Mormons is shocking locals.  Some mental health experts think they know why Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or LDS) members are killing themselves: the recent policy change of the Mormon Church on the LGBT or LGBTQ community, namely children...")
• Affirmation (this is where Wendy Montgomery first aired her "statistics").
• [EDIT TO ADD] Slate (Published on February 8, 2016): Under the title "The Mormon Church Issued New Punishments for Gays. Then the Suicides Began": "Wendy Montgomery, a Mormon mom who has a gay son and works with the Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University, believes that at least 32 gay Mormon youths have killed themselves since the announcement of the new policy."
• [EDIT TO ADD] Gay Star News (published on February 8, 2016): Under the title "How the Mormon Church can (and will) overturn its new policy and embrace LGBTIs," Mitch Mayne weighs in.  I find it interesting that he goes to such lengths to bolster his credentials.  
• [EDIT TO ADD] The Washington Blade (published on February 5, 2016): Under the title "Moms of Mormon gays track teen suicides": "Montgomery reports that since the LDS church policy was announced, calling gay LDS couples apostates and banning their children from baptism until they are adults and denounce gay marriage, 34 LDS/LGBT youth between the ages of 14 and 20, have committed suicide. She said 28 of those suicides happened in Utah."  And this: "'I think it’s important that we realize the shame and hurt we are putting on the gay community as members of the church,' Jill Hazard Rowe, a Mama Dragon, who lives in Utah, told KUTV. She is Mormon and has a gay son."
• [EDIT TO ADD] TheNewCivilRightsMovement.com: ("LDS Elder Says Question of Whether Church is Responsible for At Least 32 Deaths Can Only Be Answered by 'Higher Authority' on 'Judgment Day'")

So the natural and expected result of Wendy Montgomery publishing horrendous (and now all but falsified) data about teen suicides was . . . vilification of the LDS Church and its leaders and members and doctrines.  Trying (and, it appears to some extent, succeeding) to make the Church and its beliefs and adherents look bad.

That, I submit, was the objective.  Pressure tactics against the Church by church members designed to foment popular opinion and ill will against the LDS Church so as to coerce the Church into capitulating to the preferences of "agitators."  

And here:

Quote

Quote

First, suicide and suicide ideation among young gay Mormons is a real thing.

Nobody is denying that.  Nobody at all.  It is a terrible, horrific thing.  It is a tragedy.

All the more reason why, when discussing it, we should be cautious and circumspect about it.  We don't want to dwell on it in ways that may contribute to so-called "suicide contagion."  We don't want to ignore it, either, as it affects all of us as a community.  But what we really, really ought not do is fabricate data about it.  Or make public assertions about a huge increase in suicides and characterize them as being responsive to (and, hence the fault of) the recent policy changes by the LDS Church.  Or lie about this huge increase being "documented" when in fact it has not ("It’s not acceptable that, as one conference participant shared, there have been at least 32 documented LGBT Mormon suicides since the release of the new policy.").  Or publish these undocumented - and now pretty much falsified - numbers so that critics and enemies of the LDS Church can exploit them, can use them as rhetorical weapons against the LDS Church.

I feel the same way about false rape claims.  I acknowledge that rape "is a real thing."  But that does not justify or excuse people who make false accusations ofrape, or who fabricate false or misleading data about the prevalence of sexual assault so that such information can then be exploited for rhetorical advantage.

Quote

Second, Wendy Montgomery did not "publish data about teen suicides"—she reported what she had been told.

I fail to see the difference between "publish" and "report."  And she did a lot more than merely pass on "what she had been told."  She made public statements declaring that "there have been at least 32 documented LGBT Mormon suicides since the release of the new policy."  "Documented" is a word.  It means something.  And Wendy Montgomery used it to bolster the credibility of her claims.  

So when are we supposed to believe her?  When she said she have been "documented" suicides, or when she says she's "my numbers [aren't] verified?"  Was she lying when she publicly claimed these suicides were "documented?"  If so, has she retracted that claim and apologized?  If not, why not?

She also specifically told Affirmation that all 32 of these purported suicides occurred "since the release of the new policy [in early November]."  But she's now claiming that she "[doesn't] have death dates."  Again, when are we supposed to believe her?  Has she retracted or apologized for any of this?  If not, why not?  Is fabricating data okay as long as she's otherwise a nice person?  Is exploiting teen suicide to score rhetorical points and leverage public pressure against the LDS Church acceptable?

Quote

Finally, I don't think Montgomery or Gustav-Wrathall had any intention of "vilifying the LDS Church," "trying to make the Church look bad," or "fomenting popular opinion and ill will" towards the Church in order "to coerce the Church into capitulating." I think they were honestly alarmed and worried about what they were hearing.

I think they were honestly alarmed and worried too.  But this is not an either/or proposition.  These folks fomented ill will against the LDS Church for its recent policy changes by publicizing fabricated statistics about an increase in teen suicide and tying that increase to the LDS Church.  I simply do not believe that was not intentional.  That it was an oopsy daisy or an unintended side effect.  Part of that agenda is certainly to promote awareness of and attention to the problem of teen suicides.  But let's get real.  Wendy Montgomery wasn't talking about teen suicides in general, but about suicides which she (and several other groups) publicly attributed to the LDS Church's policy changes.  She isn't the first person to use fabricated claims about legitimate social ills to advance an agenda. 

See also here (not from this board, but still relevant to Mama Dragon / Affirmation / Wendy Montgomery):

Quote

I would like to link a post mentioned by Bookslinger in the comments that is relevant here. There is a history of Wendy Montgomery exaggerating claims about gay teen suicide. When you look at the data, there is simply no corroboration of her claims.

Here is what the article says:

“Unfortunately, however, these stories seem to be accompanied, more and more frequently, by statistical claims that are not supported by data. Mrs. Montgomery’s assertion that Mormons have the highest gay teen suicide rate in the country is unsourced in the original interview, and other blogs and outlets making similar claims are also missing sources. I surveyed all the government and health data I could find on youth suicide in the United States, and was unable to find any agency that collects public data by religion or sexual orientation (data so specific would be very difficult to collect). In fact, the American Association of Suicidology’s LGBT Resource Sheet notes, “to date, there is no empirical data regarding the number of completed suicides within the LGBT community.” The claim appears to be fabricated.

Other claims to the effect that Mormons, or Utahns, have a unique or unusually acute problem with gay teen suicide, or even teen suicide, cannot be supported by any data I can find.”

http://virtuoussociety.com/2015/01/26/re-examining-gay-mormon-youth-and-suicide-what-does-the-data-say/

Read the whole thing (including the part where Wendy's husband weighs in and claims that the LDS Church is a "highly rejecting environment," and that "LGBT youth from highly rejecting environments are 8x more likely to commit suicide" and where he attempts to bully others for questioning or disagreeing with his and his wife's statements).

Back in 2016 I just saw a very good Opinion Piece in the Salt Lake Tribune by Mikle South, a Professor of Psychology (at BYU) about the "misuse of suicide data" (emphasis added):

Quote

Op-ed: Misuse of Utah suicide data makes it harder to address
By Mikle South
First Published Feb 06 2016 03:00PM    •    Last Updated Feb 07 2016 07:44 pm

Reported suicides among LGBTQ youth in Utah have received increased attention over the past few weeks. Because every suicide is a heartbreaking tragedy, increased understanding regarding contributing factors is needed in order to prevent future deaths. Unfortunately, some recent commentaries have misconstrued available facts.

Some may not realize that Utah belongs to the so-called "suicide belt" along the Intermountain Corridor. Suicide rates throughout this region are considerably higher than anywhere else in the country save Alaska, where rates are more than double the national average. Within this geographical context, Utah is not unique with regards to suicide.

Thus far, identifying the cause of this regional phenomenon remains elusive. Other regions with high rates of religiosity and availability of guns do not show similar patterns of suicide. Some research has suggested that lowered oxygen availability at higher altitudes affects brain chemistry in ways that increase vulnerability for depression and suicide, but this is not likely the only factor, and this and other possible causes are still being explored.

Surveys have shown that LGBTQ adolescents nationwide have a heightened suicide risk. Recent anonymous reports suggest that LGBTQ youth in predominantly LDS cultures have an increased risk beyond that. These reports contradict data from the Utah Department of Health, calling into question their validity, but the reality of the suffering of these youth still needs to be addressed.

The "silent stories" series published by an unofficial, off-campus group of students at Brigham Young University provides detailed information about individual cases of discrimination, depression, and suicidality experienced throughout their lives. While shame and guilt are associated with talking about these topics, such willingness to share these stories publicly can help make the topic a more urgent concern in the community.

An important question is how to use data collected from individual case reports to develop to a broader understanding of and solution to the problem. Experts recommend adding a place for information regarding sexuality concerns to suicide reports in the National Violent Death Reporting System administered by the Centers for Disease Control. I encourage Utah to embrace such recommendations.

...

Suicide is a major health concern for all youth in Utah, and may be a particular concern for LGBTQ youth. Recent misuse of suicide data in Utah for political purposes makes discussions about this topic more difficult. Such conversations should rely on verified information and address the hard questions about emotional and cultural experiences related to depression and suicide.

Sage advice, I think. 

I wrote the following in July 2016:

Quote

The message from the Anti-Mormon segment of the Gay Rights Lobby to LDS youth with same-sex attraction is not merely that "the{ir} Church doesn't love them," but that their Church hates and despises them.  This message is, I think, calculated with malice to cause alienation and estrangement between these youth and their religious faith.

I can't imagine what this must be like.  Let me walk you through my thought processes on this point:

• A) If I were an impressionable teenager, and
• B) if I had a strong familial and social attachment to the LDS Church, and
• C) if I personally had a spiritually-informed testimony of the Restored Gospel, and
• D) if I felt attracted to those of the same sex, and
• E) if I were in the midst of struggling to reconcile my testimony and my desire to live the Gospel with innate sexual feelings which - if acted upon - would lead me away from the Restored Gospel, and
• F) if under these conditions I was bombarded with a relentless series of stories and memes and declarations from other people in society that my church hates me and is filled with bigotry and hatred toward me, and that I have no hope whatsoever of living among them, and that my only option is to reject the Church and its teachings utterly and to join others in engaging in conduct which I have spent years struggling to control . . . then
• G) depression and hopelessness would not only be unsurprising, such feelings would be expected.

But can we expect any introspection from the folks who have spent years demonizing the LDS Church?  Will they ever stop to consider the possibility that they are causing harm to LDS teenagers by using deliberate and calculated means to vilify those teens' religious community, and to estrange those teens from that community?  My sense is that no, I don't think they will.

AFAIK, Wendy Montgomery and Affirmation and the Mama Dragons never retracted their claims (which, as noted above, were uncritically accepted and published by quite a few media outlets).  

I also said this (same link):

Quote

In all candor, these tactics make me seriously question the good faith of those who use them.  I question their good faith because it is one thing to express remorse and angst about suicide, and more particularly about teen suicide, and even more particularly about gay LDS teen suicide.  But it is quite another to exploit such horrific tragedies by using them as a brickbat with which to attack the LDS Church.  Such usage reeks of ill intent.  The deaths of LDS teens are not, I think, being discussed because of the innate and inestimable worth each child of God has, but because these suicides can be be used as social/political weapons against the LDS Church.  And such exploitation is what keeps happening, over and over and over again (see above).

I also question their good faith because data suggests that membership in and adherence to the tenets of the LDS Church are a good thing for LDS youth, including LDS youth with same-sex attraction.  Here are some data points on this:

• According to a study in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted and mainstreamed for years, homosexual behavior significantly increases the likelihood of psychiatric, mental and emotional disorders, negating the mindset that society's lack of tolerance of homosexual behavior and lifestyle produces these psychoses. Youth are four times more likely to suffer major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, four times as likely to commit suicide, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer multiple disorders, and more than six times as likely to have attempted suicide. (Study of 5,998 Dutch adults) Theo G.M. Sandforte et al., "Same-Sex Sexual Behavior and Psychiatric Disorders: Findings from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence," Archives of General Psychiatry 58, 10 (2001): 85-91.
• Researchers found "an elevated suicide risk for homosexuals" even in tolerant Denmark. Ping Qin, Esben Agerbo, and Preben Bo Mortensen, "Suicide Risk in Relation to Socioeconomic, Demographic, Psychiatric, and Familial Factors: A National Register-Based Study of All Suicides in Denmark, 1981-1997." American Journal of Psychiatry 160 (2003): 765-772.
• According to the American Journal of Epidemiology, active Latter-day Saints are seven times less likely to commit suicide:

Quote

Young Mormon men living in Utah who closely adhere to the dictates of their faith are less likely to commit suicide than their peers who are less active in the church, study findings show.

The Mormon Church is known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

For more than 10 years, 15- to 34-year-old males in Utah have had suicide rates markedly higher than those seen nationally. In fact, in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24.

"These results provide evidence that a low level of religious commitment is a potential risk factor for suicide," Dr. Sterling C. Hilton of Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, and his colleagues write in the March 1st issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology.

Hmm. The Latter-day Saints who are at increased risk for suicide, then, are those who do not live according to the teachings of the LDS Church.  Put another way, the teachings of the LDS Church decrease the risk of suicide. This kinds contradicts the whole "We gotta let homosexuals ditch the Law of Chastity, else they'll kill themselves" narrative...

But even assuming, to some extent, that there may be a link between teen suicides in LDS society and social opprobrium against homosexual conduct in LDS society, why are the folks crowing about teen suicides seemingly doing all they can to ratchet up that tension?  

If folks are so concerned about homosexuals committing suicide, why aren't they encouraging them to to maintain high levels of religious observance (which includes, you know, abstinence from homosexual behavior)?

And why are they instead trying to persuade/cajole the LDS Church into altering its teachings about homosexuality when living in accordance with those teachings appears to lower the risk of suicide?  

These are sincere questions.

Sadly, my sense is that the answer to them is pretty much along the lines of this: There are people who hate the LDS Church so much, that they will use any rhetoric, any means, any handy brickbat to attack the LDS Church.  

Even if this means crassly exploiting the suicides of children, they will do it.  

Even if this means encouraging LDS youth to abandon precepts and a community, adherence to and participation in which have a demonstrably positive effect in their lives, they will do it.  

Even if this means materially contributing to the stress and anxiety felt by vulnerable, at-risk teens by telling them that the religion they have grown up in and love, that their leaders and mentors and friends and family, all hate them, they will do it.  

For the record, as a Latter-day Saint (or to be more precise, because I am a Latter-day Saint), I am appalled and saddened that anyone would kill themselves for any reason. I think it is tragic that Latter-day Saints with same-sex orientation have been (and, to some lesser extent, sometimes still are) treated poorly because of that orientation.  I have no doubt that same-sex attraction can be a tremendous struggle.  And I think the Church (both the leaders and laity) have improved significantly, but that we as individuals can and must to better to make teens feel loved and safe (no matter what the enemies of the Church say to the contrary).

Wendy Montgomery and her confederates are not the only ones who are out there recklessly weaponizing suicide as a rhetorical weapon to attack people with whom they disagree.  The are not the only ones who may be materially contributing to "suicide contagion."

But it would nevertheless sure be nice if they, and Dan Reynolds, and the people on this board who have emulated their behavior), would stop doing this sort of thing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 30, 2018 by smac97

[poptart]

One big question that comes to mind for me, will the LDS or Catholic Church do anything over this?  Long term affects from all this will most likely include even more family disfunction, poorer physical/mental health and an even steadier lifespan decline.  Like it or not, this will affect those who are still fortunate enough to be middle class and have stable families.  White flight isn't much of an option anymore, this stuff is creeping into the nice "safe" middle class suburbs and thanks to societal apathy people care less and less.  I know there are people here that do a lot of good, hope the trend continues as it will be those with children/families who will suffer the most from all this.  Protestantism is dying and in some cases may as well be dead, while the evangelicals have gained a lot of steam my opinion of them isn't the greatest.  When a hurricane slams someplace like Houston and Mosque is one of the first to open their doors and the local megachurch has to be facebook shamed into opening their doors that really doesn't say a lot of good for them I think.  That being said, besides the Catholic Church it's kind of down to the LDS folk, you're one of the last ones standing here with the members and money.

[The Nehor]

Well, this thread is depressing. Time to end it all.

[poptart]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

This does invite some ruminations on "suicide contagion," described here:

This is, of course, a society-wide problem and concern.  However, we have also seen a more specific set of people who have chosen to weaponize stories and claims and rhetoric about suicide against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  As a pressure tactic.  To turn people against the Church.  To turn members of the Church against the Church.  

We see this all the time, in fact.  We have seen in on this very board (see, for example, here).  Dan Reynolds has done it quite a bit (see, e.g., here ("He became more and more outspoken about gay rights within the Church – frequently calling attention to the high teenage suicide rate in Utah...")).

But perhaps the most appalling example has been the Mama Dragons (and Affirmation) and their irresponsible, unsubstantiated sensationalized public statements accusing the Church of causing suicide, which we have discussed extensively on this board.  See, e.g., here:

And here:

See also here (not from this board, but still relevant to Mama Dragon / Affirmation / Wendy Montgomery):

Read the whole thing (including the part where Wendy's husband weighs in and claims that the LDS Church is a "highly rejecting environment," and that "LGBT youth from highly rejecting environments are 8x more likely to commit suicide" and where he attempts to bully others for questioning or disagreeing with his and his wife's statements).

Back in 2016 I just saw a very good Opinion Piece in the Salt Lake Tribune by Mikle South, a Professor of Psychology (at BYU) about the "misuse of suicide data" (emphasis added):

Sage advice, I think. 

I wrote the following in July 2016:

AFAIK, Wendy Montgomery and Affirmation and the Mama Dragons never retracted their claims (which, as noted above, were uncritically accepted and published by quite a few media outlets).  

I also said this (same link):

Wendy Montgomery and her confederates are not the only ones who are out there recklessly weaponizing suicide as a rhetorical weapon to attack people with whom they disagree.  The are not the only ones who may be materially contributing to "suicide contagion."

But it would nevertheless sure be nice if they, and Dan Reynolds, and the people on this board who have emulated their behavior), would stop doing this sort of thing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Ya know, wasn't even bringing the gay stuff into this, was just bringing up something on well being.  If anything, i'd hope the LDS church does something about this.  You guys are one of the few non gov't organizations left with the financial resources to do anything.  If you or someone doesn't do something, this will continue.  I'd rather see a private entity get involved, gov't options aren't always the most affective.  Also, they tend to be quite expensive.

[poptart]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, this thread is depressing. Time to end it all.

Whelp, if you ever see a late 20s/early 30s single male walking into your ward a mental wreck and in need of help, do something.  That was me about 5 years ago, only one who did anything was kind of the black sheep of the family.  The depression from the mess that I had to deal with was bad enough that I almost walked in front of a train, would have been nice if someone would have opened their door to me and done the christian thing instead of looking at me as someone elses problem.

[smac97]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

Ya know, wasn't even bringing the gay stuff into this, was just bringing up something on well being. 

I think one of the most obvious vectors for "suicide contagion" amongst the youth of the Church is the online / social media rhetoric we have seen from people like Dan Reynolds, Wendy Montgomery, the Mama Dragons, Affirmation, and so on.

5 hours ago, poptart said:

If anything, i'd hope the LDS church does something about this.  You guys are one of the few non gov't organizations left with the financial resources to do anything.  If you or someone doesn't do something, this will continue.  I'd rather see a private entity get involved, gov't options aren't always the most affective.  Also, they tend to be quite expensive.

What sort of "something" do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

[poptart]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think one of the most obvious vectors for "suicide contagion" amongst the youth of the Church is the online / social media rhetoric we have seen from people like Dan Reynolds, Wendy Montgomery, the Mama Dragons, Affirmation, and so on.

What sort of "something" do you have in mind?

Thanks,

-Smac

After my father passed and I had to tie up a few loose ends I began a steady social media purge from my life, with my uncle now gone i've finalized it.  I go out of my way to avoid toxic garbage.  Easy answer to social media attacks, live better lives than them.  Be the bigger man.  You believe in Christ right?  Be the bigger man instead of bickering.  It was because of men who did things in society that caused the pagans in Northern Europe to convert, now it's the hypocracy of many religious people that has made the old pagan beliefs make a huge comeback.  Sadly, lots of degeneracy is coming about too.  Seriously people like that make me sick, bash religion all you like, what have they done to help make society a better place?  Let's see em roll up their sleeves and help an elderly man care for his lawn or help out at a food bank.

 

That's the thing, what could you do?  Isn't the LDS church doing something on suicide?  I'd think more outreach, less judging of the poor and maybe being better mental health advocates.  Deseret Industries is amazing, love how they help even non members out.  Also, they get quality donations, something most other places can't boast about.  Think what would scare me if I was church going is how this stuff affects everyone now.  One of my old housemates came from a good LDS family, his siblings all served missions and he fell through the cracks.  Was 29, he looked 39 with a rap sheet a mile long.  Meth, heroin, you name it he was on it.  Think his old ward ostracised him, no one really cared.  Only thing he had going for him was his family, i'd be suprised if he lives another 5 years.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

That's the thing, what could you do?  Isn't the LDS church doing something on suicide?  I'd think more outreach, less judging of the poor and maybe being better mental health advocates.  Deseret Industries is amazing, love how they help even non members out.  Also, they get quality donations, something most other places can't boast about.  Think what would scare me if I was church going is how this stuff affects everyone now.  One of my old housemates came from a good LDS family, his siblings all served missions and he fell through the cracks.  Was 29, he looked 39 with a rap sheet a mile long.  Meth, heroin, you name it he was on it.  Think his old ward ostracised him, no one really cared.  Only thing he had going for him was his family, i'd be suprised if he lives another 5 years.

It is difficult to impossible to help an addict unless they want to change. “Ostracizing” someone like that is often just basic safety but I do not have enough details to know what is going on.

Edited November 30, 2018 by The Nehor

[smac97]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

That's the thing, what could you do?  Isn't the LDS church doing something on suicide?  I'd think more outreach, less judging of the poor and maybe being better mental health advocates. 

What sort of additional "outreach" do you have in mind?

What sort of "judging of the poor" do you think is being committed by the Church?  And how is that judging contributing to suicidal ideation?

Could you also clarify what you think the Church can/should do regarding "better mental health advocates?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to argue, just to understand.  

5 hours ago, poptart said:

Deseret Industries is amazing, love how they help even non members out.  Also, they get quality donations, something most other places can't boast about.  Think what would scare me if I was church going is how this stuff affects everyone now.  One of my old housemates came from a good LDS family, his siblings all served missions and he fell through the cracks.  Was 29, he looked 39 with a rap sheet a mile long.  Meth, heroin, you name it he was on it.  Think his old ward ostracised him, no one really cared.  Only thing he had going for him was his family, i'd be suprised if he lives another 5 years.

Ostracism is a bad thing, to be sure.  That certainly needs to be addressed/corrected where it is happening.

Thanks,

-Smac

[poptart]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is difficult to impossible to help an addict unless they want to change. “Ostracizing” someone like that is often just basic safety.

Preaching to the choir, addicts have to want to change.  Thing with Ostracizing, the problem never really goes away.  Back in the day that was something churches did, they ran places for people like this and still do in parts of the world.  This has to be terrifying for parents, if they have a kid with any kind of mental issue the chances of other like minded people being drawn to them goes up, birds of a feather.  I often wonder about troubled children and what kind of messed up parents they're having to grow up around.  (Assuming their parents even know or care that they exist.)  Think we're at the point that if we don't do something this will end up consuming us all.

[poptart]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

What sort of additional "outreach" do you have in mind?

What sort of "judging of the poor" do you think is being committed by the Church?  And how is that judging contributing to suicidal ideation?

Could you also clarify what you think the Church can/should do regarding "better mental health advocates?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to argue, just to understand.  

Ostracism is a bad thing, to be sure.  That certainly needs to be addressed/corrected where it is happening.

Thanks,

-Smac

Something, could be as small as encouraging your members to be more socialable with single people outside their ward/neiborhood.  I know for me when I was in WA state after a really bad domestic violence situation that ended with me taking out a restraining order i was a mess.  Mom went to BYUH so I figured why not, she wasn't a member and I had nothing to lose.  Ward I went to had lots of converts who were poor and for the most part I felt like there was an invisible line between the haves and have nots.  One guy I did plee with for help responded with we're not a charity with a big smile before he walked off.  Guy was a retired doctor with a huge ego.  Not saying all wards are like that but I had a very bad experience there and considering the mental issues I was having to deal with could not handle much.  Only person who did anything understood where I was coming from, he worked with a lot of mentally ill people and made the job I had with DI happen.  It's not so much the church, it's the people in it so basically the same thing every religion on the planet has to deal with.  I know most of your people are volunteer, maybe getting someone from SLC to come up with something regarding the mentally ill?  There would be a huge benefit to the LDS Church from all this, you'd be one of the few organizations out there doing anything, also would be a great way to outshine the idiots on social media.  You could even offer services to them, i see some of the comments people on facebook and twitter make and have to wonder....

 

Another idea, start sending missionaries out to hospitals, nursing homes more.  People see missionaries and the first thing that usually comes to mind is some kid selling religion, change the narritave to someone who visits the poor, eldery and mentally ill and tries to help with what resources the church has would not only go a long way in making you guys look really Christ-like, but also put those who bash you in their place.  If all you do is good it puts the opposition in a difficult place when they try to call you a detriment to society.

Edited November 30, 2018 by poptart

[pogi]

If I was to diagnose the core issue here, I would without hesitation say that toxic shame is at the epicenter of this affliction.  That is the epidemic that is afflicting our nation at ever increasing rates.  If that core issue could be addressed in our society, we would all but eradicate most of these problems. 

That is the core of addiction, that is at the core of low self-worth leading to poor self-care and/or suicide.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

If I was to diagnose the core issue here, I would without hesitation say that toxic shame is at the epicenter of this affliction.  That is the epidemic that is afflicting our nation at ever increasing rates.  If that core issue could be addressed in our society, we would all but eradicate most of these problems. 

That is the core of addiction, that is at the core of low self-worth leading to poor self-care and/or suicide.

As a worthless individual I agree.

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As a worthless individual I agree.

I know you are joking around but -

D&C 18:10

Believe it!  

That is a powerful anecdote, when we can help people to see themselves the way God sees them.  That is a life-changing experience.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by pogi

[poptart]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

If I was to diagnose the core issue here, I would without hesitation say that toxic shame is at the epicenter of this affliction.  That is the epidemic that is afflicting our nation at ever increasing rates.  If that core issue could be addressed in our society, we would all but eradicate most of these problems. 

That is the core of addiction, that is at the core of low self-worth leading to poor self-care and/or suicide.

All of this, with no end in sight.

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

Something, could be as small as encouraging your members to be more socialable with single people outside their ward/neiborhood. 

I think we have already received quite a bit of counsel and encouragement to do just that.  It sounds like some members need to improve in adhering to this counsel.  That will always be the case, I think.

FWIW, my neighborhood does a very good job of reaching out in these ways.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

I know for me when I was in WA state after a really bad domestic violence situation that ended with me taking out a restraining order i was a mess.  Mom went to BYUH so I figured why not, she wasn't a member and I had nothing to lose.  Ward I went to had lots of converts who were poor and for the most part I felt like there was an invisible line between the haves and have nots. 

Not sure what you mean here.  Nevertheless, I see your generalized point.  I live in an area that is, in the main, socioeconomically modest.  However, I previously spent several years in a ward that was quite affluent.  I did not see any material difference between the two as regarding how the members treated each other (which, in both instances, was quite well).  I have a number of family members who live in more prosperous areas/neighborhoods, and they do occasionally remark on problems that seem related to affluence (lots of gossip, lots of keeping-up-with-the-joneses, etc.).

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

One guy I did plee with for help responded with we're not a charity with a big smile before he walked off.  Guy was a retired doctor with a huge ego. 

Without knowing the details, I am sorry to hear that.

Our ward's bishop regularly helps people with mental health issues.  Which is to say, he provides pastoral care, but he also encourages and facilitates counseling (for emotional/social/mental heath issues), and medical care.  The Church seems to work hard in giving bishops resources along these lines.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

Not saying all wards are like that but I had a very bad experience there and considering the mental issues I was having to deal with could not handle much.  Only person who did anything understood where I was coming from, he worked with a lot of mentally ill people and made the job I had with DI happen.  It's not so much the church, it's the people in it so basically the same thing every religion on the planet has to deal with. 

Yep.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

I know most of your people are volunteer, maybe getting someone from SLC to come up with something regarding the mentally ill? 

We have LDS Family Services.  And bishops have discretion (though not unfettered) to help with payment for counseling services where LDS Family Services is not available.  And the Church donates quite a bit to various agencies in terms of welfare needs (food, clothing, etc.).

Another biggie that the Church does in terms of helping with mental health is . . . missionary work.  Being a member of the Church provides a community for people.  It provides opportunities to serve.  It provides a strong moral and ethical framework.  It includes prohibitions against destructive behaviors (physical violence, alcohol/substance abuse, etc.).  It strongly encourages self-reliance (education, strong work ethic, etc.).  Perhaps most of all, it provides hope and optimism.  Developing faith in God does that.  Modifying personal behaviors to conform to His moral/ethical framework does that.

In the past, the Church, and society in general, did not have an altogether strong and healthy grasp on mental illness.  I think the Church has improved a lot in the last several years on this point.  I am grateful for that.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

There would be a huge benefit to the LDS Church from all this, you'd be one of the few organizations out there doing anything, also would be a great way to outshine the idiots on social media.  You could even offer services to them, i see some of the comments people on facebook and twitter make and have to wonder....

I suspect that a religious group directly providing mental health counseling presents all sorts of legal/ethical problems.  The Church would very likely be accused of preying on the mentally ill by indoctrinating under the pretext of providing mental health counseling.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

Another idea, start sending missionaries out to hospitals, nursing homes more. 

Same problem.  Same legal/ethical issues.

When I was a missionary in Taiwan, we regularly volunteered in hospitals and nursing homes (and orphanages).  Not sure that could be replicated on a large scale in the U.S.

33 minutes ago, poptart said:

People see missionaries and the first thing that usually comes to mind is some kid selling religion, change the narritave to someone who visits the poor, eldery and mentally ill and tries to help with what resources the church has would not only go a long way in making you guys look really Christ-like, but also put those who bash you in their place.  If all you do is good it puts the opposition in a difficult place when they try to call you a detriment to society.

Good points.  But the Church still needs to be prudent and cautious in where and how missionaries provide acts of service to others.

Thanks,

-Smac

[poptart]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

I know you are joking around but -

D&C 18:10

Believe it!  

That is a powerful anecdote, when we can help people to see themselves the way God sees them.  That is a life-changing experience.

 

Means nothing if they're a mental mess with no social support.  Can shower them with praise all you like, with out material support it means nothing and considering the lack of families many have nowadays it's only going to get worse.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

Means nothing if they're a mental mess with no social support.  Can shower them with praise all you like, with out material support it means nothing and considering the lack of families many have nowadays it's only going to get worse.

It means that at some point, possibly after death, it will get better.

[poptart]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think we have already received quite a bit of counsel and encouragement to do just that.  It sounds like some members need to improve in adhering to this counsel.  That will always be the case, I think.

FWIW, my neighborhood does a very good job of reaching out in these ways.

Not sure what you mean here.  Nevertheless, I see your generalized point.  I live in an area that is, in the main, socioeconomically modest.  However, I previously spent several years in a ward that was quite affluent.  I did not see any material difference between the two as regarding how the members treated each other (which, in both instances, was quite well).  I have a number of family members who live in more prosperous areas/neighborhoods, and they do occasionally remark on problems that seem related to affluence (lots of gossip, lots of keeping-up-with-the-joneses, etc.).

Without knowing the details, I am sorry to hear that.

Our ward's bishop regularly helps people with mental health issues.  Which is to say, he provides pastoral care, but he also encourages and facilitates counseling (for emotional/social/mental heath issues), and medical care.  The Church seems to work hard in giving bishops resources along these lines.

Yep.

We have LDS Family Services.  And bishops have discretion (though not unfettered) to help with payment for counseling services where LDS Family Services is not available.  And the Church donates quite a bit to various agencies in terms of welfare needs (food, clothing, etc.).

Another biggie that the Church does in terms of helping with mental health is . . . missionary work.  Being a member of the Church provides a community for people.  It provides opportunities to serve.  It provides a strong moral and ethical framework.  It includes prohibitions against destructive behaviors (physical violence, alcohol/substance abuse, etc.).  It strongly encourages self-reliance (education, strong work ethic, etc.).  Perhaps most of all, it provides hope and optimism.  Developing faith in God does that.  Modifying personal behaviors to conform to His moral/ethical framework does that.

In the past, the Church, and society in general, did not have an altogether strong and healthy grasp on mental illness.  I think the Church has improved a lot in the last several years on this point.  I am grateful for that.

I suspect that a religious group directly providing mental health counseling presents all sorts of legal/ethical problems.  The Church would very likely be accused of preying on the mentally ill by indoctrinating under the pretext of providing mental health counseling.

Same problem.  Same legal/ethical issues.

When I was a missionary in Taiwan, we regularly volunteered in hospitals and nursing homes (and orphanages).  Not sure that could be replicated on a large scale in the U.S.

Good points.  But the Church still needs to be prudent and cautious in where and how missionaries provide acts of service to others.

Thanks,

-Smac

This is also why I try not to just bash religious people, I was in a horrible place mentally so who knows, I probably missed a lot of things.  Also hey, i just rolled unlucky is what it is. 

That's a shame, the letigious nature of the USA really makes some things difficult.  One thing that really upset me was how Catholic Charities in Chicago had to get out of child adoptions because they refused to let LGBT people adopt.  Sure, bash them for pedo priests yet when you destroy something that does a lot of good the media is strangely silent.  Also, i'd like to see some of these social justice warriors step up and help a lot of the children that were just displaced with that part of Catholic Charities shutting down.

[poptart]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It means that at some point, possibly after death, it will get better.

That's my hope, once i'm good and dead i'll get to see the family my father screwed me out of as a child.  Grandmom waved at me when we left hawaii when i was like 4, saw me once and that was that, my father cared more for the bottle than anything. 

Even if that doesn't happen i'll be good and dead and that's it, won't have to watch this world degenerate anymore.