Confused about the value of Opposition and Pain?

[nuclearfuels]

Been struggling with this one for a while...probably stemming from too much time dabbling in philosophy...and this board....

My ward/stake on our state's day of service did what we usually do, clean trash out of the river and park areas.

Seems like the unity, comradery, and validation we felt wouldn't be possible w/o the actions of those who littered, dumped trash, etc. which makes it hard for me to discount their actions as entirely negative as they motivated many to do positive acts.

Of course, this leads to other problems in valuing the reaction to opposition, which reaction (fortification of faith, stronger testimony, etc.) might have otherwise not taken place (forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, as a prime example -  clearly there's eternal value in the Fall and humankind being born; but no value in the catalyst that sparked that?).

On the other hand if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

Spencer W. Kimball:

Pain stayed so long I said to him today,

"I will not have you with me any more."

I stamped my foot and said, "Be on your way,"

And paused there, startled at the look he wore.

"I, who have been your friend," he said to me,

"I, who have been your teacher--all you know

Of understanding love, of sympathy,

And patience, I have taught you. Shall I go?"

He spoke the truth, this strange unwelcome guest;

I watched him leave, and knew that he was wise.

He left a heart grown tender in my breast,

He left a far, clear vision in my eyes.

I dried my tears, and lifted up a song --

Even for one who'd tortured me so long.

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/TragedyorDestinySWK.htm

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by nuclearfuels

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Been struggling with this one for a while...probably stemming from too much time dabbling in philosophy...and this board....

My ward/stake on our state's day of service did what we usually do, clean trash out of the river and park areas.

Seems like the unity, comradery, and validation we felt wouldn't be possible w/o the actions of those who littered, dumped trash, etc. which makes it hard for me to discount their actions as entirely negative as they motivated many to do positive acts.

I don't think that we can retroactively ratify wrongful acts by pointing to some positive result that may have arisen thereafter.

X beats up Y.  Y's estranged wife rushes to him in the hospital, and they end up putting aside their differences and reconciling.  Does that justify X's physical abuse of Y?

Q sexually assaults and impregnates G, who decides to keep the baby, and ends up cherishing and loving the child, and the child in turn grows up to be a stalward and good person.  Does that justify Q's sexual assault of G?

Whether an action is wrong/sinful or not depends, I think, more on the motive of the person.  

2 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Of course, this leads to other problems in valuing the reaction to opposition, which reaction (fortification of faith, stronger testimony, etc.) might have otherwise not taken place (forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, as a prime example -  clearly there's eternal value in the Fall and humankind being born; but no value in the catalyst that sparked that?).

On the other hand if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

Funny how that works.  I'll give you that.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

If you did not clean you could have instead built something beautiful from scratch. The litterers cost you that.

[nuclearfuels]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I don't think that we can retroactively ratify wrongful acts by pointing to some positive result that may have arisen thereafter.

X beats up Y.  Y's estranged wife rushes to him in the hospital, and they end up putting aside their differences and reconciling.  Does that justify X's physical abuse of Y?

Q sexually assaults and impregnates G, who decides to keep the baby, and ends up cherishing and loving the child, and the child in turn grows up to be a stalward and good person.  Does that justify Q's sexual assault of G?

Whether an action is wrong/sinful or not depends, I think, more on the motive of the person.  

Funny how that works.  I'll give you that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks Smac.

just a quick follow up - aren't our motivations influenced heavily by diet, sleep, exercise, chemical imbalances, etc., and all this without a full knowledge of the truth? 

It almost seems like whether we obey God and litter laws of the land, we are, all of us, nothing more than instruments in His hands. 

Might those hands seem somewhat devious by guiding or permitting the adversary to guide the litterers/physical assualters/ etc.?     

Then again, if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

[smac97]

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks Smac.

just a quick follow up - aren't our motivations influenced heavily by diet, sleep, exercise, chemical imbalances, etc., and all this without a full knowledge of the truth? 

Yes.  Hence the need for the Atonement.

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

It almost seems like whether we obey God and litter laws of the land, we are, all of us, nothing more than instruments in His hands. 

I don't think so.  We have free will.  Agency.  The ability and opportunity to choose.  Meaningfully choose.

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Might those hands seem somewhat devious by guiding or permitting the adversary to guide the litterers/physical assualters/ etc.?     

I don't accept the premise (that God is "devious").  And your question presupposes an absence of free will.  I can't accept that, either.

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Then again, if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

Yep.  A big, messy, telestial world.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Been struggling with this one for a while...probably stemming from too much time dabbling in philosophy...and this board....

My ward/stake on our state's day of service did what we usually do, clean trash out of the river and park areas.

Seems like the unity, comradery, and validation we felt wouldn't be possible w/o the actions of those who littered, dumped trash, etc. which makes it hard for me to discount their actions as entirely negative as they motivated many to do positive acts.

Of course, this leads to other problems in valuing the reaction to opposition, which reaction (fortification of faith, stronger testimony, etc.) might have otherwise not taken place (forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, as a prime example -  clearly there's eternal value in the Fall and humankind being born; but no value in the catalyst that sparked that?).

On the other hand if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

To paraphrase King Benjamin, "I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may [build unity, commradeierre and validation]; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them." If you weren't picking up litter, you might be teaching kids to read or restoring public amenities. Litterers can also do other things improperly, without consent, or at an inappropriate location.

Opposition is simply in the fabric of existence, and we will always have opportunity to react and choose. The two words, opposition and opportunity, have the same root ("posit") which means "placed". That is all litterers and cleaner-uppers are doing (placing things).

"All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence."

 

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Been struggling with this one for a while...probably stemming from too much time dabbling in philosophy...and this board....

My ward/stake on our state's day of service did what we usually do, clean trash out of the river and park areas.

Seems like the unity, comradery, and validation we felt wouldn't be possible w/o the actions of those who littered, dumped trash, etc. which makes it hard for me to discount their actions as entirely negative as they motivated many to do positive acts.

Of course, this leads to other problems in valuing the reaction to opposition, which reaction (fortification of faith, stronger testimony, etc.) might have otherwise not taken place (forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, as a prime example -  clearly there's eternal value in the Fall and humankind being born; but no value in the catalyst that sparked that?).

On the other hand if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

 

 

So, what are you confused about? You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the situation.

Glenn

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks Smac.

just a quick follow up - aren't our motivations influenced heavily by diet, sleep, exercise, chemical imbalances, etc., and all this without a full knowledge of the truth? 

It almost seems like whether we obey God and litter laws of the land, we are, all of us, nothing more than instruments in His hands. 

Might those hands seem somewhat devious by guiding or permitting the adversary to guide the litterers/physical assualters/ etc.?     

Then again, if we existed in a world without opposition, we'd have no progress, so....here we are

You don't need to invite opposition to get it...

Even when Satan is bound in the millennium there will be opposition. People will just have learned how to resist evil and selfish temptations so that Satan will have no power. But alas, it will not last because without the guiding presence of God men eventually begin to value things of the world such as money, power, fame, etc. So, don't trouble yourself about valuing opposition...

[nuclearfuels]

50 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To paraphrase King Benjamin, "I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may [build unity, commradeierre and validation]; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them." If you weren't picking up litter, you might be teaching kids to read or restoring public amenities. Litterers can also do other things improperly, without consent, or at an inappropriate location.

Opposition is simply in the fabric of existence, and we will always have opportunity to react and choose. The two words, opposition and opportunity, have the same root ("posit") which means "placed". That is all litterers and cleaner-uppers are doing (placing things).

"All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence."

 

"placed." That's interesting.

Almost seems synonymous w/ pre-determined or foreordained?

[nuclearfuels]

8 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You don't need to invite opposition to get it...

Even when Satan is bound in the millennium there will be opposition. People will just have learned how to resist evil and selfish temptations so that Satan will have no power. But alas, it will not last because without the guiding presence of God men eventually begin to value things of the world such as money, power, fame, etc. So, don't trouble yourself about valuing opposition...

I don't want to invite opposition.

Just seems odd to revile the things that help us grow

-

Spencer W. Kimball:

Pain stayed so long I said to him today,

"I will not have you with me any more."

I stamped my foot and said, "Be on your way,"

And paused there, startled at the look he wore.

"I, who have been your friend," he said to me,

"I, who have been your teacher--all you know

Of understanding love, of sympathy,

And patience, I have taught you. Shall I go?"

He spoke the truth, this strange unwelcome guest;

I watched him leave, and knew that he was wise.

He left a heart grown tender in my breast,

He left a far, clear vision in my eyes.

I dried my tears, and lifted up a song --

Even for one who'd tortured me so long.

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/TragedyorDestinySWK.htm

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

"placed." That's interesting.

Almost seems synonymous w/ pre-determined or foreordained?

I wouldn't go that far

"...God has placed it [truth], to act for itself..." (D&C 93:30)

Truth acts for itself and generates light (spirit), which is intelligence (93:29). That which truth organizes without spirit is element,which cannot act for itself. Not to stray too far from the OP, truth is a man (or a spirit -- 93:33).

[RevTestament]

38 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I don't want to invite opposition.

Just seems odd to revile the things that help us grow

-

Spencer W. Kimball:

Pain stayed so long I said to him today,

"I will not have you with me any more."

I stamped my foot and said, "Be on your way,"

And paused there, startled at the look he wore.

"I, who have been your friend," he said to me,

"I, who have been your teacher--all you know

Of understanding love, of sympathy,

And patience, I have taught you. Shall I go?"

He spoke the truth, this strange unwelcome guest;

I watched him leave, and knew that he was wise.

He left a heart grown tender in my breast,

He left a far, clear vision in my eyes.

I dried my tears, and lifted up a song --

Even for one who'd tortured me so long.

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/TragedyorDestinySWK.htm

I don't revile it at all. I think it is part of understanding the atonement - to know and overcome opposition.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Seems like the unity, comradery, and validation we felt wouldn't be possible w/o the actions of those who littered, dumped trash, etc. which makes it hard for me to discount their actions as entirely negative as they motivated many to do positive acts.

There are lots of options for service, imo, without the negative actions of idiots.  Think of cleanup efforts after floods, fires, and earthquakes.  Instead resources have to get wasted on easily avoided damage.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I don't want to invite opposition.

Just seems odd to revile the things that help us grow

-

Spencer W. Kimball:

Pain stayed so long I said to him today,

"I will not have you with me any more."

I stamped my foot and said, "Be on your way,"

And paused there, startled at the look he wore.

"I, who have been your friend," he said to me,

"I, who have been your teacher--all you know

Of understanding love, of sympathy,

And patience, I have taught you. Shall I go?"

He spoke the truth, this strange unwelcome guest;

I watched him leave, and knew that he was wise.

He left a heart grown tender in my breast,

He left a far, clear vision in my eyes.

I dried my tears, and lifted up a song --

Even for one who'd tortured me so long.

http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Talks/TragedyorDestinySWK.htm

......But I was still glad he was finally gone!

[Maidservant]

Not to mention, that what is suffering to one person is not to another.

Two favorite stories:

Two young men set the the assignment of shoveling manure out of a stable.  One really hated the job and suffered through it.  The other was going to town with a big grin on his face.  The first asked, "Why are you so happy about a manure shoveling job?"  The second said, "With this much manure, there has to be a pony in here somewhere!!!"

There was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer.  The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Not to mention, that what is suffering to one person is not to another.

Two favorite stories:

Two young men set the the assignment of shoveling manure out of a stable.  One really hated the job and suffered through it.  The other was going to town with a big grin on his face.  The first asked, "Why are you so happy about a manure shoveling job?"  The second said, "With this much manure, there has to be a pony in here somewhere!!!"

There was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer.  The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.

I am not stoic enough to live like that.  

[clarkgoble]

On 11/28/2018 at 9:44 AM, smac97 said:

I don't think that we can retroactively ratify wrongful acts by pointing to some positive result that may have arisen thereafter.

That is true, but in designing this world clearly God wanted a world with lots of suffering and human bodies with a lot of inclination to suffering. Even if we say that a lot of this just comes out of freedom, it seems clear that God could have produced a body with less inclination to violence and psychopathy and the like. The contrast between two closely related primate groups, bonobos and chimps, shows that even in an evolutionary system the inclinations can be quite different. So why are humans perhaps in many ways closer to chimps than bonobos? Obviously we can't really know, but it seems reasonable to assume that God designed this world for a reason and at minimum tolerates the range of behaviors our bodies incentivize.

Likewise while evolution as a force will always have life filling in niches, thus limiting what God can create without necessitating a lot of active interference, the geology of the planet contributes a lot to this. It's easy to imagine a planet with fewer natural catastrophes that cause suffering for humans. Thus again God must see some benefit into the the type of planet we live on and what that tends to incentivize evolutionarily.

While Mormon theology doesn't have a fully fleshed out explanation to the problem of evil, the usual response is a kind of functional view. That is first off we each consciously and deliberatively chose to come to this world knowing what this world was like and what we'd possibly suffer. That reduces what complaints about evil we can really make. However it doesn't answer the problem of why God offering this type of world. Part of it is usually seen as limits on God's power. That is the plan of salvation inherently is due to a limited God who can't simply transfigure beings into being like him with a snap of his fingers. He has to do hard work to bring to pass salvation and exaltation. But why is this level of evil in this world necessary to transform us?  That again is what's just not clear even though I think Mormon theology demands that some level of evil and suffering be present.

Edited November 29, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Maidservant]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not stoic enough to live like that.  

I hear you.  In my case, it's do or die.  If I don't do radical peace, radical acceptance, radical forgiveness, radical joy, radical gratitude et cetera, I'm consumed in flames of misery.  There's  no "medium" for me.

[Maidservant]

5 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

 But why is this level of evil in this world necessary to transform us? 

I have asked this of myself many times, especially once you get to the point of accepting that from the premortal life we chose to come, we chose to descend.  The altar that both binds and tortures, and yet yields great treasures of love and freedom.

A few bits that do not answer the whole question (in fact, give more) but that are expanding for me in that direction.

One is that we are God.  NO ONE MADE THIS BUT US.

Two is that I have often thought that this earth life practicum serves as an inoculation.  Once we are finished with enmity, we are finished once and for all and are fit to participate in the real life and society of which we are a part (not this place!).  But then I ask myself--if we already came from great love and freedom and purity, what is there to be inoculated against?  Was there something more in the history of this 'god society' of which no one wants to return, so we teach it to our posterity in a sacred, veiled way?  Only those who've been here know what it is and what it is like and what it means?  I often think this is what the 'no reveal' portions of the endowment are--they are about how one cannot reveal to a person (premortal) what earth life is, unless they have passed through themselves.  We came from love, light, freedom, etc . . . but we don't understand how that is created from even the greatest of depths and hazards unless we live it.  I love in D&C 76 where it describes the inheritors of the "celestial glory" as those who overcame.  Not those that were "really good, perfect, or obedient", but those that overcame.  Not overcome by, but overcame.  All things subject to them.  All things includes what happens to us as far as trauma.

Third, to follow Christ, particularly to follow Christ into the waters of baptism, means to enter earth life.

[Lucian Hodoboc]

When you're in pain, the meaning of life is the pain? What? I don't understand that line of thought. I could understand how the urgent liberation of pain would become a goal in such a situation, but I ail to see how the meaning of life would be the pain.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/28/2018 at 11:04 AM, smac97 said:

.............................Yep.  A big, messy, telestial world.........................

Perhaps the most insightful and profound discussion of pain, suffering, and malevolence is this one by Jordan Peterson:

 20 minutes.

Quote

2:02 “And this question about meaning is like that too: Is there meaning in life? That’s a stupid question.  I’m serious about that.  That’s not a question you ask yourself if you’re in pain.  Right?  Because when you’re in pain, you know that life has a meaning.  It’s the pain.  And you can’t argue yourself out of that meaning.  And so, when we’re asking ourselves whether life has meaning, that isn’t what we mean: What we mean is, In the face of life’s pain and suffering, does life have any positive meaning?  And that is not the same question.”
* * * * 
12:06 “to understand if there’s a root, a mode of being, which takes us away from undue suffering, but more than that takes us away from undue suffering multiplied by malevolence.  That’s the fundamental existential problem of life.  We all suffer.  That’s the meaning of life.  We all suffer.  The suffering is exacerbated by the malevolence in our hearts and in the maelvolence in the hearts of all of us.  And the paramount issue that faces us is what to do about that.  An answer is, I think, to live a life that manifests itself as meaningful.  Because it seems to me that the meaning isn’t a rational phenomenon.  It isn’t something that you create.  This is something where Nietzsche, I think, got it wrong: He believed that as a consequence of the death of God, we would have to create our own values.  We would have to become gods ourselves, so to speak.  But I don’t think that Nietzsche was right.  I don’t think we can create our own values.  I think that we have to discover them.  And I think that what we discover are eternal values.  And I think that the eternal values that are discoverable are precisely the values that lead us away from the pathway to Perdition that was characterized by places like Auschwitz.  And I also think that we all know this.”
* * * * 
17:48 “Meaning is what makes the suffering worthwhile.”

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Two is that I have often thought that this earth life practicum serves as an inoculation.  Once we are finished with enmity, we are finished once and for all and are fit to participate in the real life and society of which we are a part (not this place!).  But then I ask myself--if we already came from great love and freedom and purity, what is there to be inoculated against?  Was there something more in the history of this 'god society' of which no one wants to return, so we teach it to our posterity in a sacred, veiled way?  Only those who've been here know what it is and what it is like and what it means?  

Perhaps something like a very interactive Holocaust Musuem to ensure “never again”?  Is that what you mean?

[Maidservant]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Perhaps something like a very interactive Holocaust Musuem to ensure “never again”?  Is that what you mean?

Yes, it has crossed my mind and an understanding I toy with sometimes.  But I haven't concluded on it completely because it raises other questions; like how far down do we peel this onion, lol.

[Maidservant]

I just read Jonathan Livingston Seagull again today.  (I had when I was a teenager a long time ago.)  I felt it was apropos to this thread.

[Stargazer]

On ‎11‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 4:54 PM, The Nehor said:

If you did not clean you could have instead built something beautiful from scratch. The litterers cost you that.

Yep! That's called "opportunity cost".