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flameburns623

And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.

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She is a podcaster who does A Thoughtful Faith. She has been attending an LDS ward in New Zealand whole at the same time accepted baptism and confirmation in an Anglican church. 

Her Disciplinary Council is for apostasy, due to her having accepted membership and sacraments from another church. She is not on my radar much on Facebook so don't know much more about her. Perhaps others are more femiliar. 

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she posts on patheos, I never realized she was a member, but I never read much of her posts.

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14 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

She is a podcaster who does A Thoughtful Faith. She has been attending an LDS ward in New Zealand whole at the same time accepted baptism and confirmation in an Anglican church. 

Her Disciplinary Council is for apostasy, due to her having accepted membership and sacraments from another church. She is not on my radar much on Facebook so don't know much more about her. Perhaps others are more femiliar. 

I once knew a mystical LDS woman who not only was very active in her LDS ward and attended LDS temple several times weekly, but she also went to mass at the Cathedral of the Madeleine in Salt Lake City, and took communion there.  She was very observant of both sets of rites, even though she was not a baptized Catholic.  She kept a low profile on the RC actions, so didn't get into trouble, but she was unique.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I once knew a mystical LDS woman who not only was very active in her LDS ward and attended LDS temple several times weekly, but she also went to mass at the Cathedral of the Madeleine in Salt Lake City, and took communion there.  She was very observant of both sets of rites, even though she was not a baptized Catholic.  She kept a low profile on the RC actions, so didn't get into trouble, but she was unique.

there's a guy on our HC who attends the Catholic Church, his wife plays the organ. His records our in our ward but he never attends, I 've asked the Stake where does he go to church when he isn't doing his HC stuff, no answer. I'm like well, you fall on your own sword then.

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4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

there's a guy on our HC who attends the Catholic Church, his wife plays the organ. His records our in our ward but he never attends, I 've asked the Stake where does he go to church when he isn't doing his HC stuff, no answer. I'm like well, you fall on your own sword then.

It's pretty easy to seem totally inactive when you are on the HC. When I show up in my home ward I feel like I am playing hookie because I really should be in the ward I am called to help. ;)

I really have no reason to be in my home ward, and if I were more disciplined and magnifying my calling I would never be. 

No one in the stake monitors where HC members attend church.

The presumption is that you are doing your duty.

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It will be interesting to see if she draws this out with all the attention-seeking that others do or just acknowledge quietly the simple logic of it.

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17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It will be interesting to see if she draws this out with all the attention-seeking that others do or just acknowledge quietly the simple logic of it.

That sure would be nice.  These scorched-earth exits are getting a bit tiresome.

Thanks,

-Smac

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9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

She shouldn’t have done this. Catholic communion is closed. It would be like a non-Mormon going to the temple regularly but keeping quiet about the fact that they are not LDS. 

A point made yesterday in our parliament when a Christian-hating member of our government opined that non-Christians at Catholic schools must be protected against being forced to take Communion ... :blink:

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Just now, smac97 said:

That sure would be nice.  These scorched-earth exits are getting a bit tiresome.

I just had a quick squizz at her Facebook page. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not feeling hopeful ...

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I have listened to Gina off and on for years.  She has some pretty good guests.  In my opinion, she has always been combative, negative, condemning and sometimes just mean about the Church.  I have wondered how she could stay in the Church with those kind of attitudes.  I didn’t know about her accepting baptism in another church.  Her experiences have been profoundly positive in the Church, especially when she was growing up.  I want there to be a place for all kinds of people in the Church, but where is the line where it goes too far.  Gina crossed that line in my mind.  Bill Reel did not cross that line at first, then he got more and more negative.  Then he crossed the line.  Same with John Dehlin.  It seems like people in their situation are trying to push that line to see how far they can go.  Then they act surprised and angry.  Then ther is the negative publicity, which seems to be what they really want.    The liberal crowd argue that the Church enforcing some kind of boundary is not helpful and does more harm than good.  I think that we should all try to be tolerant of a wide number of beliefs and opinions, especially if they are personal and not publicized or taught in Church.  Publicizing and teaching in Church raise the bar for me in what I expect people to say.  In Church I expect building faith and fellowship.  When a person leads others away,  that is particularly egregious and needs to be enforced.  I blame John Dehlin and Kate Kelly for at least part of my older kids leaving the Church.  That is probably a whole other debate and I will decline into getting into that in further detail.  

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After hearing her speak at the MHA a couple of years back I'm not surprised.  Lots of dissatisfaction with the Church and opinions on how things ought to be run.

Edited by JLHPROF
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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

She shouldn’t have done this. Catholic communion is closed. It would be like a non-Mormon going to the temple regularly but keeping quiet about the fact that they are not LDS. 

Yes I was about to post that and here it is.  It is totally inappropriate and sacrilegious and almost blasphemous in the Catholic psyche - perhaps more on the order of people who make movies of temple rites. 

If she was actually sympathetic to Catholicism she would not have done that, I think.   It's kind of like an investigator who wants to join the church sneaking into the temple with a camera.  It seems like inconsistent behavior to do about the worst thing you can do in a faith you actually like.

It's just a weird contradictory thing to do.  "Hi- meet my new girlfriend!  Now I am going to throw paint all over her!  Isn't that a great idea??"

Uh, no.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

This was also disconcerting to me. LDS sacrament is different in that we allow the unbaptized to take it if they wish and it is not a big deal for us as they have no covenants to renew (usually this is done by unbaptized children though and not non-member adults). In Catholicism it is just disrespectful.

Even worse!

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

She shouldn’t have done this. Catholic communion is closed. It would be like a non-Mormon going to the temple regularly but keeping quiet about the fact that they are not LDS. 

Was this woman a baptised Catholic who converted to the LDS Church later?

Btw: there are Stage Four and Stage Five Roman Catholics, who have created spaces for themselves which Stage Three Catholics barely ever hear about: except when leading conservative Catholic mouthpieces complain of abuses. Such spaces are often unconcerned about the sort of restrictions that traditionally limit the sacraments: they take more of a view that Christ ESPECIALLY  calls sinners to his table. 

In Germany,  one of the most progressive of Catholic nations, Protestants are rarely questioned if they elect to receive communion.  Over the past year,  it has become quasi-official that the Protestant spouses of Catholics can receive communion. 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/german-bishop-pastoral-caretakers-do-not-have-the-right-to-allow-or-deny-ac

This is a technical violation of RCC Canon Law, but the German Conference of Catholic Bishops have waived that, with virtually no pushback from the Vatican. Catholicism in Germanic or French speaking nations,  generally,  have been rather experimental and free-wheeling since Vatican II. Neither Pope John Paul II nor Benedict XVI  could fully curb their excesses. 

In the United States,  especially in urban areas,  one will usually find at least one parish which is where the progressives who want to do Church are "herded". Here in Saint Louis,  that parish is virtually run by LGBTQ  members, activist nuns and religious,  etcetera. There is also the Catholic church adjacent to the major Catholic university here, which is very very tolerant despite being under the very nose of a fairly conservative Archbishop.

And, across the river in Belleville, the even more-conservative bishop in Belleville has been losing a longstanding battle with some of the most progressive diocesan priests in the Midwest.  

But: Catholic media here are geared toward Stage Three, regimented,  obedient-to-Tradition type Catholics,  and most Catholics here would feel as you do, MiserereNobis. 

Sorry for the derail. It does underscore that other faith traditions, even inherently rather conservative ones, have found ways to make space for those with questions or different ways of "doing" that faith. But: not without tension and a level of internal wrangling which might well tear the LDS Church apart.

I would note that I joined a traditionalist Anglican parish in 2002 and was confirmed there in 2004, while still a member of the LDS Church. I hadn't been in touch with my ward for years at that time, so no one questioned me nor was I presented a summons to a Disciplinary Council.  

So, it feels a bit as if the parameters of what is acceptable in Mormonism are narrowing. Or not: Gina Colvin apparently told her LD bishop that she would happily accept a Ward calling,  so long as it did not interfere with her Anglican Church ministry.  

Sort of "in-your-face", 'twould seem to me. 

Edited by flameburns623

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

She shouldn’t have done this. Catholic communion is closed. It would be like a non-Mormon going to the temple regularly but keeping quiet about the fact that they are not LDS. 

When I was on my mission, I was invited to take a Catholic communion by a Catholic investigator.  He said it was fine when we went to his church. 

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I do not know, but as it has been described here it doesn't matter. Catholic baptism is indelible, yes, which means once baptized, always baptized (to steal a protestant phrase, ha). But the issue isn't baptism -- it is respect for a religion whose rites you are attending. If you attend a religious ritual and blatantly break the rules of the ritual, you are disrespecting that religion. It is better to respect a religion, is it not?

I'm assuming you don't realize how patronizing this is, because if you did and said it anyways, you would be a patronizing condescending person. I hope you are not. Starting such a claim as this with "Btw" (not even spelled out) is so dismissive, as if the person who you are about to denigrate should have already known they are in such a lowly state.

Can't you see the bias here? Someone who believes what the religion has to say is "stage 3" while those who break with the religion's views are "stage 5"? Really, you are okay with numerically ranking people in religious belief? That is what stage 5 people like you do, numerically rank others? And yes, you did make it personal, when you said:

You probably don't know anything about my spiritual journey, and if you've read a few of my personal posts here then you really don't know much. Catholic media has nothing to do with my faith, nor does the idea of just being obedient to tradition. I didn't convert to Catholicism until I was in my early 30s, so following tradition had nothing to do with it. Prior to my conversion, I had spent years exploring psychedelic spirituality in the desert mountains outside my house. I had also spent time at Thai Buddhist monasteries, doing weeks-long retreats, both in California and New Mexico. I have hung out at ashrams and camped with pagans. And then, obviously, I found Catholicism, including Her beautiful monastic tradition. Please, don't try to tell me that my religious beliefs come out of mindless obedience and I'm somehow lower than others on your "quantitative" scale. I might venture that people who create such a scale and categorize people on it are probably lower on such a scale than those they judge.

The official canon law is that priests are not to question anyone who presents themselves for communion. It is up to the communicant to judge whether they are worthy of communion. That's rather tolerant, wouldn't you agree?

And yes, Germany is quite the progressive/heretical of Catholic nations. Vatican II allowed many abuses and the fact that Germany or France uses them does not excuse them. Recent Popes, as you point out, have tried to curb them. It is not the Pope's fault that those under him refuse to listen. But what would you personally want in this situation? Do you want the Pope to utterly quash the heresy, or do you want the Pope to let it be? It seems like you enjoy pointing out that Pope has been ineffective in stopping the situation and also that the situation has continued,.

You're not sorry. Classic example of paralipsis.

The Catholic Church is absolutely open to those of different ways of "doing" our faith. In fact, I'd say that's one of our strengths. There are so many religious orders, spiritual directors, ways of "doing" Catholicism. You can follow a Franciscan spirituality, or a Benedictine spirituality, or a Jesuit spirituality, or dozens more. There ARE many paths to God, fully within the umbrella of Catholicism. If one takes more than a cursory glance, one knows this.

But then, one might have to give up one's pride in a spiritual ranking system, and actually allow oneself to see that level 3 might actually be level 10, or maybe that both and all levels are irrelevant to the God who loves us.

Abbreviations are common on the internet.  The half-seconds which are saved probably add up to several minutes of lifetime saved for other things. 

I was raised Roman Catholic. In a VERY conservative parish which only reluctantly gave up the use of Latin even after transitioning to the "Novus Ordo"  Rite, (more commonlycalled the Ordinary Form since Pope Benedict). 

Considered becoming a priest.   

Have alternated between Catholic and LDS spirituality,  with long sabbaticals where I was either unbelieving altogether (my first few years in college); or else dabbling in various "alternative spiritualities", including Nichiren Shoshu and Zen Buddhism,  Wicca and Paganism,  even a taste or two of Scientology. 

For a long time, if I was doing Christianity,  I could only do it within the most conservative and authoritarian tributaries.  When I was Catholic, I was very, very old-style Catholic,  even attending the Latin "Extraordinary Form" Mass as much as possible. As an Anglican,  I belonged to the Continuing Church or traditionalist wing, those Anglicans who rejected female ordination,  gays,  etcetera. 

Somewhere around 2012/13, that started to unravel for me. 

Yeah, it is difficult,  once passing through a Faith Crisis, and emerging on the other side at least aspiring to Stage Five,  not to feel patronizing about Stage Three believers. (Judgementalism is particularly a Stage Three pecadillo; condescension is a temptation for those in Stage Five). For example,  you sound very silly ( AND  judgemental) to me when you bring up the term "heresy": the word ceases to mean much to me these days. 

Certainly,  those Roman Catholics who militate for the ordination of women, for same-sex marriage,  for full membership  and full access to sacraments for active LGBTQIA  persons,  for a less-fundamentalist understanding of Scripture and Tradition,  etcetera; do not believe themselves "heretic". They have found ways to reimagine Roman Catholic teachings and practice which they find meaningful and (for them) as fully Catholic as "ten Hail Marys and an Our Father"" to more conservative RCC persons.

If I were still a practicing Roman Catholic, I would want the Pope and his representatives to stand down: to behave by the collegiality that Vatican II exorted them to, to truly recognize themselves the servants of the People of God, to quit comporting themselves as lords of the Church, to broaden both doctrine and practice. . .basically I'd turn the RCC  into the Unitarian Universalist Church,  with statues, incense,  and holy water.

I didn't know, nor expect, between 2013 and 2016, that this was where my personal faith journey was heading as I exited the RCC to ultimately return, at least at present,  to the LDS Church.  It has been the LDS "pastoral apologetics" movement, the dissidents like Bill Reel, John Dehlin, and Gina Colvin, which have given me language and insight into my own spiritual impulses. (Along with Teryl and Fiona Givens, Patrick Mason,  Thomas Wirthlin McConkie, and several other more conventionally faithful LDS writers and thinkers,  btw). 

I don't expect that you understand what I am saying. Your traditional Roman Catholic filters are likely triggered by a lot of what I have said. It's a distraction from this thread which could cause the thread to be closed. Feel free to IM  me if you need to discuss things further. 

Sorry to others for the derail.  

Edited by flameburns623

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8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

She shouldn’t have done this. Catholic communion is closed. It would be like a non-Mormon going to the temple regularly but keeping quiet about the fact that they are not LDS. 

Of course you are correct, and I never took communion in a non-LDS Church, but this woman was so very mystical and strange that it seemed part of her nature to do something like that.  I was surprised and somewhat taken aback to see her do it, but that was only one of her unconventional behaviors.  If you had read her master's thesis, you would have seen that she lived in another world than the rest of us.  A world of mysticism and poetry.

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and just like that Bill Reel is heading to be forgotten, people will jump all over this now

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14 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

She is a podcaster who does A Thoughtful Faith. She has been attending an LDS ward in New Zealand whole at the same time accepted baptism and confirmation in an Anglican church. 

Her Disciplinary Council is for apostasy, due to her having accepted membership and sacraments from another church. She is not on my radar much on Facebook so don't know much more about her. Perhaps others are more femiliar. 

Oh...  this is so sad.  Thanks for letting us know.  I like Gina a lot.  

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Just now, hope_for_things said:

Oh...  this is so sad.  Thanks for letting us know.  I like Gina a lot.  

I liked this podcast:

https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/266a-fowlers-stages-of-faith-developing-a-healthy-individuative-reflective-faith-sara-hughes-zabawa/

First of hers which I had heard. 

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13 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

So apparently Gina has been facing the prospect of discipline for a little while for her involvement with the local Anglican church.  She would like to remain a member of the COJCOLDS church and continue to hold callings and be involved, but she was also recently baptized into that Anglican church.  Apparently she has a good relationship with her local COJCOLDS leaders and has been very open with them about her journey over the years.  

She went public with the discipline that she may be facing because of this Deseret News article that was posted on Sunday.  

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900043554/in-oxford-elder-holland-joins-former-archbishop-of-canterbury-in-call-to-serve-in-ways-that-connect-us-to-each-other.html

Titled "In Oxford, Elder Holland joins former archbishop of Canterbury in call to serve in ways that connect us to each other"  

It sounds like she's concerned about the PR that the church wants to connect and serve in partnership with other religions, but that they are disciplining her for essentially being involved and serving in another religion.  Sounds hypocritical to her, so she posted about it.  

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