Avatar4321 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I hope you’re wrong. Members of our ward speak of the Savior frequently and in loving scriptural detail. One suggestion - if you want to up the level of exegesis and hear more about Christ in church, then teach others how it is done rather than condescendingly judge and dismiss them. Same with mine. sunday school was nothing but discussion on how the Lord is our shepherd and how we should be like Him. In Elders quorum we had an in depth conversation about Elder Cooks conference talk and the changes next year. About how our home and family studies are to help deepen our conversion to Christ and prepare us for His second coming. this level of discussion on christ has been in every ward I remember living in. 3 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas. I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme. I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess. Now I wonder if the church dropped the ball on not studying His life even more and speaking or praising him like other faiths because why is it that so many exLDS go Atheist or agnostic? I don't think many nonLDS Christians totally quit believing in Jesus when they leave a certain organization. That is pretty significant wouldn't you think? But as you and Garden Girl say over and over, your wards do emphasize and talk about Jesus. So maybe I'm totally off the mark, except when I hear others like Gina state the same thing. Will you and your family be doing the home study to go along with Church next year? We are studying the New Testament and the come follow me manuals are awesome 4 Link to comment
Teancum Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Because we're all just teetering on the brink of the same precipice you've fallen down, even if we're too stubborn or proud or stupid to admit it ... Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to. It ha been very painful. As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't. I have no answer to that question. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Rain Posted December 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas. I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme. Have you ever learned something new and then you hear about it on the news, read about it in a magazine and then see a picture of it at the place where you work - all totally unrelated? Or maybe you asked your child to go get a jar of jam out of the storage and they couldn't find it despite you telling the shelf and position, but when you went to show him - there it was. Or sometimes there it wasn't. There is perception and reality. Most of us consider our perception as reality. It's possible you now perceive that Jesus isn't there that often so you have stopped seeing him there when he is obviously there. It is also possible that you didn't see him because he wasn't there that much. I think those critical of the church often don't see Christ, or service or any other thing because their perception often blocks the way, but those loyal to the church may not see when Christ, service or other things are not there because their perception blocks reality as well. So I think we need to ask, "Lord, is it I?" occasionally or ask if we are perceiving things realistically. To be humble enough to ask him to see reality. Quote I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess. Now I wonder if the church dropped the ball on not studying His life even more and speaking or praising him like other faiths because why is it that so many exLDS go Atheist or agnostic? If you are looking for one answer you will be unlikely to find it. The answer is as varied as the people. Some may not have had enough teaching of Christ. Some need to deny Christ's existence to justify living against the truth/faith. Some are blocked to reality. Some have had such a bad experience that it has changed their feelings on the Savior. Some never tried to have much of a testimony. I suspect that giving any specific reason about why people as a whole no longer believe in God after leaving the church usually tells more about the person's perception than reality. Quote I don't think many nonLDS Christians totally quit believing in Jesus when they leave a certain organization. That is pretty significant wouldn't you think? But as you and Garden Girl say over and over, your wards do emphasize and talk about Jesus. So maybe I'm totally off the mark, except when I hear others like Gina state the same thing. A LOT of non LDS Christians quit believing in Christ. I know from my non LDS based message board many more atheist former other Christians than from our church. Unless you are also participating in circles where there are not a lot of members of our church your perception of your LDS circles may be blocking the reality of the world in general. Edited December 9, 2018 by Rain 6 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Teancum said: As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't. I have no answer to that question. It's a very interesting question. If we knew each other in real life, I suspect we could productively discuss it in person. Based on past experience, I doubt that's even possible in an online forum. Quote Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to. It has been very painful. No, I wouldn't wish it on anyone either. I much prefer seeing people find peace and joy and enjoy things like revelation and visions, healings and other miracles. I could, of course, be deceived, but my PhD in history suggests (to me, at least!) that I'm not unfamiliar with honest inquiry or critical thinking. Which just seems to contribute to the overall question. All best! 3 Link to comment
Popular Post JLHPROF Posted December 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas. I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme. I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess. Now I wonder if the church dropped the ball on not studying His life even more and speaking or praising him like other faiths because why is it that so many exLDS go Atheist or agnostic? I think the bigger issue is that in addition to studying Christ's life we have an accountability to teach on the things Christ wants us to actually do. You see these other faiths devote so much time to praise and his life yet they mostly ignore his actual teachings and requirements. In the Church we focus on missionary work because Christ commanded that we feed his sheep. We focus on temple work because Christ told the apostles if they are not baptized, washed and anointed they have no place with him. We have the sacrament every single meeting to be certain we never neglect to remember him. It's easy to focus on praise if you don't think Christ expects or requires any other action beyond believing and praising. But Christ never asked for praise, he didn't even want to be called good. He just wanted to get his Father's will done. Not every Lord, Lord, but them that do. So I will take every sermon on how to live as Christ requires over any sermon filled with cries of Lord. Because I know which he would want. Because in Church we HAVE studied him. Edited December 10, 2018 by JLHPROF 5 Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: Wow. She is all over the place there. so the church is part of the body of Christ, but despite her earlier baptism she had to be be baptized into the Body of Christ. she doesn’t believe in apostles or prophets yet somehow she believes in the sealing power and this excommunication would split up her family with no fault to herself. if the apostles don’t have any authority, then the family sealings have no bearing on eternity. Excommunication does literally nothing if there is no real authority there. but if the authority is there why would rebelling against it be justified in any way? Her narrative is . . . odd. Full of invective and disparagement and anger regarding all the various ways in which the Church does just isn't good enough to meet her expectations/demands. What a strange way to approach participation in a group. It's like she's saying: "Yes, I will be a part of this group, but only so long as it meets every one of my personal and subjective and malleable expectations, and only if I am personally satisfied with each and every decision made within it. Otherwise, I'm outta here!" I don't see how any religious community could withstand the absurd and unreasonable expectations foisted on it through the subjective, navel-gazing, fault-finding, my-way-or-the-highway behaviors seen in people like Gina Colvin. I wish her well. I hope she finds solace in the Anglican Communion. I think the prospects are grim, though. Thanks, -Smac Edited December 10, 2018 by smac97 2 Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Teancum said: Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to. I appreciate the sentiment. Truly. I too have pursued a path that involves "honest inquiry and critical thinking." But more than that as well. 6 hours ago, Teancum said: It ha been very painful. As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't. "People don't" . . . reach the same conclusions that you have? Different presuppositions, perhaps. Different emphases. Different experiences. Different influences. Different decisions. I hope you don't subscribe to the "Only stupid / uninformed / intellectually and morally compromised people stay in the Church" school of thought. Thanks, -Smac 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: I appreciate the sentiment. Truly. I too have pursued a path that involves "honest inquiry and critical thinking." But more than that as well. "People don't" . . . reach the same conclusions that you have? Different presuppositions, perhaps. Different emphases. Different experiences. Different influences. Different decisions. I hope you don't subscribe to the "Only stupid / uninformed / intellectually and morally compromised people stay in the Church" school of thought. Thanks, -Smac Perhaps I have it wrong, but I got the impression that he doesn't understand how people "who are clearly smart and intelligent" get different answers/conclusions than he does which makes me believe he does NOT believe only stupid or uninformed people choose differently than he does, but quite the opposite. 3 Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: It's a very interesting question. If we knew each other in real life, I suspect we could productively discuss it in person. Based on past experience, I doubt that's even possible in an online forum. No, I wouldn't wish it on anyone either. I much prefer seeing people find peace and joy and enjoy things like revelation and visions, healings and other miracles. I could, of course, be deceived, but my PhD in history suggests (to me, at least!) that I'm not unfamiliar with honest inquiry or critical thinking. Which just seems to contribute to the overall question. All best! Today I was reading from Richard L. Anderson's Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses. Last weekend I perused John Gee's An Introduction to the Book of Abraham. I have spent the last several months using Brant Gardner's Second Witness (Volume 1) in tandem with my study of The Book of Mormon. As I write this I look across the room to a bookcase that holds Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations 1820-1844 and Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures. I need to finish reading the former and re-read the latter. Yesterday I spent some time in the kitchen making dinner for my family, during which I listened to Daniel Peterson's 2017 FAIR presentation, What Difference Does It Make? And yet in the last month I have also read quite a bit of stuff written by Bill Reel, Gina Colvin, and Sam Young. I also spent some time perusing mormon*****.*** (oi, what a dank and unpleasant and profane place that is). I have also read from MRM, UTLM, and Dan Vogel. Two recent items of study have been 1) criticisms of The Book of Abraham and 2) Deutero-Isaiah in The Book of Mormon. Interesting stuff. My doctorate is merely a JD, surely the redheaded stepchild of the academic world. But it and my experiences as an attorney have been very helpful. I too like to think that I am familiar with honest inquiry and critical thinking. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas. I find virtually all Sacrament Meetings to be Christ-centered. Today's talks were about the Sacrament and Sabbath observance. These topics have to do with Jesus Christ, and nothing else. Today the Gospel Doctrine lesson centered on the stories of Daniel and Esther in the Old Testament. These stories, and the lessons and precepts to be derived therefrom, are profoundly Christ-centered. 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme. Hmm. I've always viewed these topics as being topically and thematically intertwined with Jesus Christ. Without Him, the temple and missionary work would have no relevance or significance. 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess. I view Joseph Smith's work in the same vein as I do the authors of the New Testament. And the Old Testament. In the end, these people are but conduits through which revelations about Jesus Christ flow to us. Thanks, -Smac 1 Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 22 minutes ago, Rain said: Perhaps I have it wrong, but I got the impression that he doesn't understand how people "who are clearly smart and intelligent" get different answers/conclusions than he does which makes me believe he does NOT believe only stupid or uninformed people choose differently than he does, but quite the opposite. Ah. Perhaps that is so. Thank you for the clarification/correction. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
Calm Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Rain said: Perhaps I have it wrong, but I got the impression that he doesn't understand how people "who are clearly smart and intelligent" get different answers/conclusions than he does which makes me believe he does NOT believe only stupid or uninformed people choose differently than he does, but quite the opposite. He was missing a second comma after "people". I think that would have made his comment clearer. Link to comment
6EQUJ5 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: My doctorate is merely a JD, surely the redheaded stepchild of the academic world. But it and my experiences as an attorney have been very helpful. I too like to think that I am familiar with honest inquiry and critical thinking. Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates. Link to comment
Storm Rider Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Teancum said: Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to. It ha been very painful. As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't. I have no answer to that question. 4 I appreciate your honesty and willingness to share. The ability to question oneself is often delayed or ignored in favor of other self-serving emotions. I don't have any answers for you other than I have learned that I am very, very human. I doubt the arm of flesh and I am willing to accept that mysteries and the unknown will exist for us here. For me the church, the gospel of Exaltation work because of what I compare to the teachings of other churches and faiths. Nothing fits as well as the Restored gospel. Having said that, I also know that many things don't work well in the organization for many people. I know that we can learn from other churches and faiths. I love the worship and reverence found within Islam; I deeply appreciate the wealth of spiritual teachings found within Catholicism; I like the comradery that I find in many other Christian churches. I do not fear the truth or that truth can be painful and hard. Just keeping kneeling before God and let him guide your steps and your thoughts. Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 29 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates. Sophists ("a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments") don't really do well in the U.S. legal system, which is structured to be adversarial. I usually have an opposing attorney who scrutinizes my arguments for flaws and fallacies. So no, I don't think I'm a sophist. But I don't have pretensions about being Socrates, either. Thanks, -Smac 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates. Disagreement of subject, verb and pronoun. Try: “Every sophist imagines himself/herself Socrates.” Or, “All sophists imagine themselves Socrates.” Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 9 hours ago, smac97 said: Sophists ("a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments") don't really do well in the U.S. legal system, which is structured to be adversarial. I usually have an opposing attorney who scrutinizes my arguments for flaws and fallacies. So no, I don't think I'm a sophist. But I don't have pretensions about being Socrates, either. Thanks, -Smac To paraphrase Billy Joel, I like you just the way you are. Link to comment
6EQUJ5 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, smac97 said: So no, I don't think I'm a sophist. Well, I only have your posts here to go on. And you are a skilled sophist. A part of me admires that. Edited December 10, 2018 by 6EQUJ5 Link to comment
6EQUJ5 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Disagreement of subject, verb and pronoun. Try: “Every sophist imagines himself/herself Socrates.” Or, “All sophists imagine themselves Socrates.” Do you get invited to many parties because you are a hoot. Link to comment
smac97 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Well, I only have your posts here to go on. And you are a skilled sophist. A part of me admires that. I invite you to point out whatever "clever but fallacious arguments" you think I post. I would welcome such critiques. To paraphrase Hugh Nibley: “We need more anti-Mormon{s}. They keep us on our toes.” Otherwise, you're just resorting to name-calling here. Thanks, -Smac Edited December 10, 2018 by smac97 1 Link to comment
6EQUJ5 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 As to the topic of the OP: I hope Sister Colvin finds a community that lives up to her (high, progressive) standards. She has seemed unhappy with the Church for some time now. To be honest, I've always wondered why she hasn't just resigned. Seems to be far less hassle. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Well, I only have your posts here to go on. And you are a skilled sophist. A part of me admires that. There is scarcely anything admirable about sophistry, but the point is moot anyway, because you have misjudged Smac. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Do you get invited to many parties because you are a hoot. I do OK. Do you often let people know you admire sophistry, or was your last post to Smac an unusually unguarded moment of candor? Edited December 10, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
The Nehor Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 10 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates. I do not. I find Socrates insufferable. I think I prefer Sophists. Can you imagine actually trying to hold a conversation with the guy while he insists on his ignorance on any topic while asking leading questions designed to force you to agree with him? Just say what you think you pretentious git! Or maybe I was just in a bad mood last time I read Plato....... Link to comment
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