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And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.


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10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I hope you’re wrong.

Members of our ward speak of the Savior frequently and in loving scriptural detail. One suggestion - if you want to up the level of exegesis and hear more about Christ in church, then teach others how it is done rather than condescendingly judge and dismiss them. 

Same with mine.

sunday school was nothing but discussion on how the Lord is our shepherd and how we should be like Him.

In Elders quorum we had an in depth conversation about Elder Cooks conference talk and the changes next year. About how our home and family studies are to help deepen our conversion to Christ and prepare us for His second coming.

this level of discussion on christ has been in every ward I remember living in.

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas. I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme. I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess. Now I wonder if the church dropped the ball on not studying His life even more and speaking or praising him like other faiths because why is it that so many exLDS go Atheist or agnostic? I don't think many nonLDS Christians totally quit believing in Jesus when they leave a certain organization. That is pretty significant wouldn't you think? But as you and Garden Girl say over and over, your wards do emphasize and talk about Jesus. So maybe I'm totally off the mark, except when I hear others like Gina state the same thing.

Will you and your family be doing the home study to go along with Church next year? We are studying the New Testament and the come follow me manuals are awesome

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19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Because we're all just teetering on the brink of the same precipice you've fallen down, even if we're too stubborn or proud or stupid to admit it ... :rolleyes:

Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to.  It ha been very painful. As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't.

I have no answer to that question.

 

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't.

I have no answer to that question.

It's a very interesting question. If we knew each other in real life, I suspect we could productively discuss it in person. Based on past experience, I doubt that's even possible in an online forum.

Quote

Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to. It has been very painful.

No, I wouldn't wish it on anyone either. I much prefer seeing people find peace and joy and enjoy things like revelation and visions, healings and other miracles.

I could, of course, be deceived, but my PhD in history suggests (to me, at least!) that I'm not unfamiliar with honest inquiry or critical thinking. Which just seems to contribute to the overall question.

All best!

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7 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Wow. She is all over the place there.

so the church is part of the body of Christ, but despite her earlier baptism she had to be be baptized into the Body of Christ.

she doesn’t believe in apostles or prophets yet somehow she believes in the sealing power and this excommunication would split up her family with no fault to herself.

if the apostles don’t have any authority, then the family sealings  have no bearing on eternity. Excommunication does literally nothing if there is no real authority there.

but if the authority is there why would rebelling against it be justified in any way?

Her narrative is . . . odd.  Full of invective and disparagement and anger regarding all the various ways in which the Church does just isn't good enough to meet her expectations/demands.  

What a strange way to approach participation in a group.  It's like she's saying: "Yes, I will be a part of this group, but only so long as it meets every one of my personal and subjective and malleable expectations, and only if I am personally satisfied with each and every decision made within it.  Otherwise, I'm outta here!"

I don't see how any religious community could withstand the absurd and unreasonable expectations foisted on it through the subjective, navel-gazing, fault-finding, my-way-or-the-highway behaviors seen in people like Gina Colvin.

I wish her well.  I hope she finds solace in the Anglican Communion.  I think the prospects are grim, though.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited by smac97
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6 hours ago, Teancum said:

Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to. 

I appreciate the sentiment.  Truly.

I too have pursued a path that involves "honest inquiry and critical thinking."  But more than that as well.  

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

It ha been very painful. As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't.

"People don't" . . . reach the same conclusions that you have?

Different presuppositions, perhaps.  Different emphases.  Different experiences.  Different influences.  Different decisions.  

I hope you don't subscribe to the "Only stupid / uninformed / intellectually and morally compromised people stay in the Church" school of thought.

Thanks,

-Smac

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2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I appreciate the sentiment.  Truly.

I too have pursued a path that involves "honest inquiry and critical thinking."  But more than that as well.  

"People don't" . . . reach the same conclusions that you have?

Different presuppositions, perhaps.  Different emphases.  Different experiences.  Different influences.  Different decisions.  

I hope you don't subscribe to the "Only stupid / uninformed / intellectually and morally compromised people stay in the Church" school of thought.

Thanks,

-Smac

Perhaps I have it wrong, but I got the impression that he doesn't understand how people "who are clearly smart and intelligent" get different answers/conclusions than he does which makes me believe he does NOT believe only stupid or uninformed people choose differently than he does, but quite the opposite.

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3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's a very interesting question. If we knew each other in real life, I suspect we could productively discuss it in person. Based on past experience, I doubt that's even possible in an online forum.

No, I wouldn't wish it on anyone either. I much prefer seeing people find peace and joy and enjoy things like revelation and visions, healings and other miracles.

I could, of course, be deceived, but my PhD in history suggests (to me, at least!) that I'm not unfamiliar with honest inquiry or critical thinking. Which just seems to contribute to the overall question.

All best!

Today I was reading from Richard L. Anderson's Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses

Last weekend I perused John Gee's An Introduction to the Book of Abraham.

I have spent the last several months using Brant Gardner's Second Witness (Volume 1) in tandem with my study of The Book of Mormon. 

As I write this I look across the room to a bookcase that holds Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations 1820-1844 and Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures.  I need to finish reading the former and re-read the latter.

Yesterday I spent some time in the kitchen making dinner for my family, during which I listened to Daniel Peterson's 2017 FAIR presentation, What Difference Does It Make?

And yet in the last month I have also read quite a bit of stuff written by Bill Reel, Gina Colvin, and Sam Young.  I also spent some time perusing mormon*****.*** (oi, what a dank and unpleasant and profane place that is).  I have also read from MRM, UTLM, and Dan Vogel.  

Two recent items of study have been 1) criticisms of The Book of Abraham and 2) Deutero-Isaiah in The Book of Mormon.  Interesting stuff.

My doctorate is merely a JD, surely the redheaded stepchild of the academic world.  But it and my experiences as an attorney have been very helpful.  I too like to think that I am familiar with honest inquiry and critical thinking.

Thanks,

-Smac

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas.

I find virtually all Sacrament Meetings to be Christ-centered.  Today's talks were about the Sacrament and Sabbath observance.  These topics have to do with Jesus Christ, and nothing else.

Today the Gospel Doctrine lesson centered on the stories of Daniel and Esther in the Old Testament.  These stories, and the lessons and precepts to be derived therefrom, are profoundly Christ-centered.

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme.

Hmm.  I've always viewed these topics as being topically and thematically intertwined with Jesus Christ.  Without Him, the temple and missionary work would have no relevance or significance.  

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess.

I view Joseph Smith's work in the same vein as I do the authors of the New Testament.  And the Old Testament.  In the end, these people are but conduits through which revelations about Jesus Christ flow to us.

Thanks,

-Smac

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22 minutes ago, Rain said:

Perhaps I have it wrong, but I got the impression that he doesn't understand how people "who are clearly smart and intelligent" get different answers/conclusions than he does which makes me believe he does NOT believe only stupid or uninformed people choose differently than he does, but quite the opposite.

Ah.  Perhaps that is so.  Thank you for the clarification/correction.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, Rain said:

Perhaps I have it wrong, but I got the impression that he doesn't understand how people "who are clearly smart and intelligent" get different answers/conclusions than he does which makes me believe he does NOT believe only stupid or uninformed people choose differently than he does, but quite the opposite.

He was missing a second comma after "people".  I think that would have made his comment clearer.

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

My doctorate is merely a JD, surely the redheaded stepchild of the academic world.  But it and my experiences as an attorney have been very helpful.  I too like to think that I am familiar with honest inquiry and critical thinking.

Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates.

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8 hours ago, Teancum said:

Actually I don't wish on anyone the path that what I believe to be honest inquiry and critical thinking has led me to.  It ha been very painful. As I sat in Church today listening to so many things that I just cannot make work for me now I pondered how I got here and why, as well as why others, who are clearly smart and intelligent people don't.

I have no answer to that question.

4

I appreciate your honesty and willingness to share. The ability to question oneself is often delayed or ignored in favor of other self-serving emotions. I don't have any answers for you other than I have learned that I am very, very human. I doubt the arm of flesh and I am willing to accept that mysteries and the unknown will exist for us here. For me the church, the gospel of Exaltation work because of what I compare to the teachings of other churches and faiths. Nothing fits as well as the Restored gospel. Having said that, I also know that many things don't work well in the organization for many people. I know that we can learn from other churches and faiths. I love the worship and reverence found within Islam; I deeply appreciate the wealth of spiritual teachings found within Catholicism; I like the comradery that I find in many other Christian churches.  I do not fear the truth or that truth can be painful and hard. Just keeping kneeling before God and let him guide your steps and your thoughts. 

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29 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates.

Sophists ("a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments") don't really do well in the U.S. legal system, which is structured to be adversarial.  I usually have an opposing attorney who scrutinizes my arguments for flaws and fallacies.

So no, I don't think I'm a sophist.  But I don't have pretensions about being Socrates, either.

Thanks,

-Smac

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9 hours ago, smac97 said:

Sophists ("a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments") don't really do well in the U.S. legal system, which is structured to be adversarial.  I usually have an opposing attorney who scrutinizes my arguments for flaws and fallacies.

So no, I don't think I'm a sophist.  But I don't have pretensions about being Socrates, either.

Thanks,

-Smac

To paraphrase Billy Joel, I like you just the way you are. 

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4 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Well, I only have your posts here to go on. And you are a skilled sophist.  A part of me admires that.

I invite you to point out whatever "clever but fallacious arguments" you think I post.  I would welcome such critiques.  To paraphrase Hugh Nibley: “We need more anti-Mormon{s}. They keep us on our toes.”

Otherwise, you're just resorting to name-calling here.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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As to the topic of the OP:

I hope Sister Colvin finds a community that lives up to her (high, progressive) standards. She has seemed unhappy with the Church for some time now.  To be honest, I've always wondered why she hasn't just resigned.  Seems to be far less hassle.

 

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10 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Every sophist imagine themselves Socrates.

I do not. I find Socrates insufferable. I think I prefer Sophists. Can you imagine actually trying to hold a conversation with the guy while he insists on his ignorance on any topic while asking leading questions designed to force you to agree with him? Just say what you think you pretentious git!

Or maybe I was just in a bad mood last time I read Plato.......

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