And now, Gina Colvin faces a Disciplinary Council.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

This...To Scott...I prayed hard and my greatest desire at times was to get that voice...a change..any personal revelation that would redeem the faith of my childhood.  I wanted it and literally cried for that reconversion...any sign..even small that would help me stay.

I would point out to you -- and HJW -- that I was not specifying any particular person or persons. The two of  you seem to be jumping to conclusions.

[HappyJackWagon]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I would point out to you -- and HJW -- that I was not specifying any particular person or persons. The two of  you seem to be jumping to conclusions.

I know you weren't talking about a particular person. You were generalizing. And that is what I was objecting to. Your generalization shows that you lack a general understanding about this.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I know you weren't talking about a particular person. You were generalizing. And that is what I was objecting to. Your generalization shows that you lack a general understanding about this.

 

I understand better than you think. 

Edited to add: It is not overgeneralizing nor displaying a lack of understanding to observe in principle conditions that apply in many instances though admittedly not all. The parables of Jesus do this, (such as the parable of the sower). So do other forms of scriptural imagery, such as Lehi’s and Nephi’s vision of the tree of life and the great and spacious building. 

Finally, by appearing to rationalize aggressive apostasy as being justifiable you yourself are generalizing at least to the extent you accuse me of doing so. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[alter idem]

On 12/1/2018 at 1:24 PM, Jeanne said:

Why don't we leave Gina alone on her journey...just let her be.  She is not hurting anyone of you.  If you are seeking just desserts for her it will well come and she probably isn't surprised.  But it is real to her..a person we do not really know..let it be.  You are in God's way for what is truth, right and justicei if that is even necessary.   Men is suits and ties don't always understand.

You know, I think most of us would be happy to leave Gina 'alone in her journey', but she made this journey public and difficult to ignore, so if anyone is guilty of 'hurting' her, it's Gina.  Many many people make these kinds of journeys out of the church without having to have an audience, but apparently she felt she needed one. 

This goes back to my frustrations with these latest church critics who are perceived as 'victims' of a tyrannical church.  You are perpetuating that by now suggesting that discussing her is 'hurting' her.

Why are we discussing her?  Because she's made this all public and therefore wants it discussed.  Sam Young, Bill Reel, Gina Colvin--they are responsible for the publicity and desire the attention, the spotlight on their lives.  We're just giving them what they want.

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, Raingirl said:

And how was that going to happen when you deliberately associated with people whose goal is to drive people away from the church?

But I did not....!  I was in a small government town ...my influence came from church websites...and people who were still members.  The postmo community and my daughter's concern led me to other sources but I didn't even contact Dehlin or anyone until I had gone through church channels and study.  I had resigned before any CES letter...I was devastated.

[smac97]

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Storm Rider]

42 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I didn't think it was unpleasant so much as ill-informed, trite (because I am "one woman" and some "man" is going to do this to me), and self-centered.

Gads Colvin, pull your head out and breathe a little every day in order to recognize that this world is not about YOU and what you want.  Also, get a clue that your actions and choices have consequences. This whole diatribe makes me think of a spoiled little three year old whining that the world is not their's and that no one sees that they are supposed to get whatever they want. 

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Oi!

I think she makes great points.  But I understand why you can't see them, nor acknowledge that she makes some valid point in spite of your disagreement, and that if you were to open that door a crack, that you could acknowledge she may have some valid point, it may be the beginning of the end for you.

Thus your comment.

And hey I am ok with that.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I didn't think it was unpleasant so much as ill-informed, trite (because I am "one woman" and some "man" is going to do this to me), and self-centered.

Gads Colvin, pull your head out and breathe a little every day in order to recognize that this world is not about YOU and what you want.  Also, get a clue that your actions and choices have consequences. This whole diatribe makes me think of a spoiled little three year old whining that the world is not their's and that no one sees that they are supposed to get whatever they want. 

I think she knows it is not all about her...as she speaks of family and ties...it is just the opposite IMO....it is all about the church.....the excommunication is all about what they want...at any cost.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

She has some interesting thoughts.  I don't agree with most of them, but they are interesting.  

It kind of seems like she's passing the buck a lot (she seems to be saying "it's a man's fault that I'm getting excommunicated and something completely outside of my control" as if her choices and her actions had nothing to do it with it).  

I also think that her focus on getting excommunicated as a woman by a man, and especially her handwringing over the end of her temple sealings to family, are a bit contrived.  I just don't believe, given the awful things that she says about the church, the leaders, and the members, that she actually believes that any part of her eternal life or relationships are being affected in the least by her excommunication.  I think she's using the idea of her eternal family and bonds being harmed to win some easy points, because the 'oh, I'm being severed from my family by a man!' card is some easy low hanging fruit and she knows she can garner sympathy and outrage if she uses it.  

And her closing sentences don't sound like they come from someone who is at peace in anything but from someone full of "righteous indignation" over perceived injustice.  She just sounds mad.  

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that.  It's a pretty human response to feeling unfairly judged (though there is a bit of a hypocritical slant to the idea that she can judge the church and it's leaders but they are committing spiritual violence if they judge her), and maybe I would react similarly. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

... if you were to open that door a crack, that you could acknowledge she may have some valid point, it may be the beginning of the end for you.

Because we're all just teetering on the brink of the same precipice you've fallen down, even if we're too stubborn or proud or stupid to admit it ... 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I also think that her focus on getting excommunicated as a woman by a man, and especially her handwringing over the end of her temple sealings to family, are a bit contrived.  I just don't believe, given the awful things that she says about the church, the leaders, and the members, that she actually believes that any part of her eternal life or relationships are being affected in the least by her excommunication.

Yep, if what she says happened in various temple sealing rooms is truly valid in any way, then she needs to stick with the Church that had the power and authority to make those things happen. It's that simple. It's like blogging about how the Whopper is the most delicious fast food burger ever and then whingeing because McDonald's doesn't serve it  

I'm reminded of my flatmate who apostatised whilst I was studying in America. I'd helped another ward member come back to the Church that year, and for spring break, we planned a road trip to St Louis for his endowment. Apostate flatmate was on his way to visit his brother, and St Louis was the halfway point, so he hitched a ride with the two of us. For the first leg of the trip, he wallowed in his misery from the back seat: 'Of all the things I miss, I miss the temple the most ...' 'I wish I could be in the temple with you guys tomorrow ...' 'Man, I love the temple ...' No matter what we talked about, he managed to turn the conversation back to how much he supposedly longed to be in the temple.

Because I think we're all disinclined to offend the disaffected, we just put up with it, but about three hours into this whinge-fest, I couldn't take it anymore. 'If I genuinely missed the temple as much as you claim to', I said, 'I'd move heaven and earth to be back inside. No sacrifice, no change would be too great. You're still a member; you have that option. If you're not willing to make that choice, please just shut up already'.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Quote

Eventually I had to find another place to worship because I couldn’t bear the weekly diet of church that made only vague references to Jesus in favor of endless and repetitious affirmations that the church is true and that President so and so is a Prophet of God and scandalously poor exegesis.

Maybe moving to a different ward would have been better.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe moving a different ward would have been better.

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that this would be Ms Colvin’s description of my ward and your ward too ... whether we might agree or not. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe moving a different ward would have been better.

Good luck with that.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Good luck with that.

Come to my ward. It is nothing like Ms Colvin describes. I remember inviting you before. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that this would be Ms Colvin’s description of my ward and your ward too ... whether we might agree or not. 

I hope you’re wrong.

Members of our ward speak of the Savior frequently and in loving scriptural detail. One suggestion - if you want to up the level of exegesis and hear more about Christ in church, then teach others how it is done rather than condescendingly judge and dismiss them. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Members of our ward speak of the Savior frequently and in loving scriptural detail.

Same! That was my point. 

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Blech!

[Rain]

 

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I hope you’re wrong.

Members of our ward speak of the Savior frequently and in loving scriptural detail. One suggestion - if you want to up the level of exegesis and hear more about Christ in church, then teach others how it is done rather than condescendingly judge and dismiss them. 

You are right that one should teach others how it is done rather than to judge, but I've found that usually one needs to have the support of leaders for this to be effective. I don't mean that the leader tells you or the ward that something is a good idea. I mean that the leader shows by example that support. 

Over and over I have seen, in many different examples,  that if I change the way I do things or show an example of those things I may have a couple of people change, but to make any lasting change the leaders need to do something. 

So I will continue to teach what is right,  but I think it is ok to be aware of and discuss that my example alone will probably not be enough and show that there can be differences in my ward and stake beyond my control. 

 

 

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Come to my ward. It is nothing like Ms Colvin describes. I remember inviting you before. 

I'd love that. Truly would. My husband and I are attending Sacrament today, and I believe it will be more Jesus centered because of Christmas. I'm sorry I've said that I don't see Jesus a whole lot throughout my membership, I know he's there in a roundabout way, but temple covenants and missionary work seem to reign supreme. I guess the other faiths only have Jesus and Joseph Smith added all these other things and they are reiterated over and over with Jesus being a given I guess. Now I wonder if the church dropped the ball on not studying His life even more and speaking or praising him like other faiths because why is it that so many exLDS go Atheist or agnostic? I don't think many nonLDS Christians totally quit believing in Jesus when they leave a certain organization. That is pretty significant wouldn't you think? But as you and Garden Girl say over and over, your wards do emphasize and talk about Jesus. So maybe I'm totally off the mark, except when I hear others like Gina state the same thing.

[Storm Rider]

18 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I think she knows it is not all about her...as she speaks of family and ties...it is just the opposite IMO....it is all about the church.....the excommunication is all about what they want...at any cost.

Pretty obvious that we conclude diametrically opposed positions after reading what she wrote. Just curious, where did you see that she took any degree of responsibility for her actions?  She joined another church....her choice, but a choice she concludes she should have no consequences.  

[Jeanne]

48 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Pretty obvious that we conclude diametrically opposed positions after reading what she wrote. Just curious, where did you see that she took any degree of responsibility for her actions?  She joined another church....her choice, but a choice she concludes she should have no consequences.  

Her choice...her covenants with God...what to do with free agency???  If she serves the church and values anything of it...it is her choice.  Leave it to God.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Her choice...her covenants with God...what to do with free agency???  If she serves the church and values anything of it...it is her choice.  Leave it to God.

Free agency doesn't work that way though.  Agency isn't the right to make choices and choose the consequences of those choices.  We have agency to choose but then the consequences follow.  They are not a part of agency.  

We also believe (and the church teaches) that membership in the church is not a right.  Covenants are two way promises that are both set by God, not by us.  We believe God has declared that there are certain things you can't do and remain a member.  Because we believe that God has set those parameters, we believe we are leaving it to God.

Edited December 9, 2018 by bluebell

[Avatar4321]

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

Gina Colvin has posted some thoughts about her upcoming council.  

Oi.  What an unpleasant read.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Wow. She is all over the place there.

so the church is part of the body of Christ, but despite her earlier baptism she had to be be baptized into the Body of Christ.

she doesn’t believe in apostles or prophets yet somehow she believes in the sealing power and this excommunication would split up her family with no fault to herself.

if the apostles don’t have any authority, then the family sealings  have no bearing on eternity. Excommunication does literally nothing if there is no real authority there.

but if the authority is there why would rebelling against it be justified in any way?