Are Gadianton Robbers non-Lehites?

[Bernard Gui]

Mormon 1

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8 And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, who consisted of the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites; and this war was between the Nephites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites.
9 Now the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites were called Lamanites, and the two parties were Nephites and Lamanites....

18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land

Mormon 2 

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27....But behold, we did go forth against the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, until we had again taken possession of the lands of our inheritance.
28 And the three hundred and forty and ninth year had passed away. And in the three hundred and fiftieth year we made a treaty with the Lamanites and the robbers of Gadianton, in which we did get the lands of our inheritance divided.

Mormon 8, after the annihilation of the Nephites

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8 And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war.
9 And now, behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none save it be the Lamanites and robbers that do exist upon the face of the land.

In their previous manifestations, the Gadiantons were Nephite traitors and defectors, but here they appear to be a separate group of non-Lehites who have adopted the ethos and methods of Gadianton. This (plus the endless supply of Lamanite replacements in these last wars) appears to me to indicate there was contact with other people in the area.

Comments?

[cdowis]

Someone wrote an article on the difference between a thief and a robber, with the implication that a robber is an "other", someone outside of the tribe.

[The Nehor]

Nephite and Lamanites were political and cultural identifiers and not solely ancestral.

[cinepro]

On 11/18/2018 at 11:45 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Mormon 1

Mormon 2 

Mormon 8, after the annihilation of the Nephites

In their previous manifestations, the Gadiantons were Nephite traitors and defectors, but here they appear to be a separate group of non-Lehites who have adopted the ethos and methods of Gadianton. This (plus the endless supply of Lamanite replacements in these last wars) appears to me to indicate there was contact with other people in the area.

Comments?

To be clear, these chapters are roughly dated to 900 years after the Lehites made landfall.  That is a very, very long time.  

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

To be clear, these chapters are roughly dated to 900 years after the Lehites made landfall.  That is a very, very long time.  

That is less then one lifetime....

 

 

 

 

 

..if you are Methusaleh of course.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Nephite and Lamanites were political and cultural identifiers and not solely ancestral.

Yes. The Lehites were reunited at and after the coming of Christ. The division in the Great War was religious and political, not tribal.

In Mormon, there seems to be a third party...the Gadianton robbers.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

To be clear, these chapters are roughly dated to 900 years after the Lehites made landfall.  That is a very, very long time.  

Not sure I understand your comment. 

[clarkgoble]

On 11/18/2018 at 12:45 PM, Bernard Gui said:

In their previous manifestations, the Gadiantons were Nephite traitors and defectors, but here they appear to be a separate group of non-Lehites who have adopted the ethos and methods of Gadianton. This (plus the endless supply of Lamanite replacements in these last wars) appears to me to indicate there was contact with other people in the area.

As others noted, after 900 years I'm not sure the term Lehites means much if one accepts indigenous peoples. They're political terms. Further it seems that the post-advent use of the terms is novel unrelated to the earlier use. Probably it'd be akin to people calling themselves Neo-Marxists to distinguish themselves from the other groups and ideologies in Europe. There's a connection to the earlier Nephites and Lamanites but probably inspired by ideas or mythology/folk lore about the earlier divides. So we might better call them neo-Lamanites and neo-Nephites to distinguish from the earlier groups.

I do think you're right about the Gadianton robbers. Some apologists like Brant Gardner attempt to use the knowledge we have of mesoAmerica at the time to make guesses about what they're referring to. It's speculative and I don't know enough history of the region to judge how believable it is. Again though I suspect the terms are old scriptural terms applied to totally new groups and ideology. Much like Pharisee or Babylon get contemporary meanings applied to unrelated movements or groups as compared to the Biblical narrative. Whether that's the Nephites doing that or something more unique by Mormon as he attempts to fit history into patterns isn't clear. My guess is that he's distorting things somewhat but there's no good way to know how for sure.

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To be clear, these chapters are roughly dated to 900 years after the Lehites made landfall.  That is a very, very long time.

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not sure I understand your comment. 

Assuming even mild mixing everyone would be a Lehite even people somewhat far away. Just like you're probably related to a Roman emperor.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

As others noted, after 900 years I'm not sure the term Lehites means much if one accepts indigenous peoples. They're political terms. Further it seems that the post-advent use of the terms is novel unrelated to the earlier use. Probably it'd be akin to people calling themselves Neo-Marxists to distinguish themselves from the other groups and ideologies in Europe. There's a connection to the earlier Nephites and Lamanites but probably inspired by ideas or mythology/folk lore about the earlier divides. So we might better call them neo-Lamanites and neo-Nephites to distinguish from the earlier groups.

I do think you're right about the Gadianton robbers. Some apologists like Brant Gardner attempt to use the knowledge we have of mesoAmerica at the time to make guesses about what they're referring to. It's speculative and I don't know enough history of the region to judge how believable it is. Again though I suspect the terms are old scriptural terms applied to totally new groups and ideology. Much like Pharisee or Babylon get contemporary meanings applied to unrelated movements or groups as compared to the Biblical narrative. Whether that's the Nephites doing that or something more unique by Mormon as he attempts to fit history into patterns isn't clear. My guess is that he's distorting things somewhat but there's no good way to know how for sure.

Assuming even mild mixing everyone would be a Lehite even people somewhat far away. Just like you're probably related to a Roman emperor.

Post visit of Christ, they became one people. No manner of '-ites among them. Jesus called the survivors descendants of Jacob. The subsequent division was along political and religious lines. IMO, if there was mixing with the native population, it was mostly among the Lamanites. 

Yet Mormon and Moroni go out of their way to declare they are pure descendants of Lehi, so someone must have been keeping track and some lineages must have survived the 900 years. Up to the very end Mormon and Moroni call the Lehites remnants of the house of Israel and make sweeping prophecies about them and their restoration in the last days. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Kevin Christensen]

Gardner on identifying the Gaddianton movement in Mesoamerica:

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2002/the-gadianton-robbers-in-mormons-theological-history-their-structural-role-and-plausible-identification

Welch on Theft and Robbery in the Book of Mormon (use the pdf link on the page):

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2839&index=106

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

 

[churchistrue]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Post visit of Christ, they became one people. No manner of '-ites among them. Jesus called the survivors descendants of Jacob. The subsequent division was along political and religious lines. IMO, if there was mixing with the native population, it was mostly among the Lamanites. 

Yet Mormon and Moroni go out of their way to declare they are pure descendants of Lehi, so someone must have been keeping track and someone must lineages must have survived the 900 years. Even to the very end Mormon and Moroni call the Lehites remnants of the house of Israel and makes sweeping prophecies about them and their restoration 

I agree with your comments here about pure descendants of Lehi, but then I'm not a fan of LGT-Mixing Populations Theory. If there was a such thing as Nephite, Lamanites, and non-Lehites in that time period, it would blow away the LGT Mixing Populations Theory. Which explains why we need non-Lehites in the first place. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, churchistrue said:

I agree with your comments here about pure descendants of Lehi, but then I'm not a fan of LGT-Mixing Populations Theory. If there was a such thing as Nephite, Lamanites, and non-Lehites in that time period, it would blow away the LGT Mixing Populations Theory. Which explains why we need non-Lehites in the first place. 

By “that time period” do you mean the days of Mormon and Moroni? Could you explain more of what you mean by needing non-Lehites?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Gardner on identifying the Gaddianton movement in Mesoamerica:

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2002/the-gadianton-robbers-in-mormons-theological-history-their-structural-role-and-plausible-identification

Welch on Theft and Robbery in the Book of Mormon (use the pdf link on the page):

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2839&index=106

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Thank you. From Gardner...

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While Mormon never describes the Gadiantons as a military caste, he does specifically note that they were “among the Lamanites,” implying that they were not the Lamanites. He also notes that at this time there is an increase in “sorceries, and witchcrafts, and magics.”....

....Mormon’s particular experience with these Central Mexican invaders would have come near the height of their power when they were literally “spread over all the face of the land.” These Gadiantons, who are not Lamanites, but who are “among” the Lamanites, are actively interested in commerce and gain. While little is known of the specifics of tribute from the Maya area into the city-state of Teotihuac·n, we may readily assume that it existed. Thus we have a foreign presence, likely part of a military caste and bringing new religious ideas, who are “robbing” the land of goods to send to their foreign city–for their own gain, and not for the gain of those in the Lamanite or Nephite area. Assuming a Mesoamerican context, there is no better candidate for the Gadianton robbers who are contemporary with Mormon. A military association from Teotihuac·n that brought a new militaristic philosophy tied to a new emphasis on “sorceries, withcrafts, and magics” is a remarkably apt description of Mormon’s contemporary Gadiantons as well as the Teotihuacanos. The known history of that time period completely supports the nature of the description that Mormon gives for the Gadianton robbers with which he is personally familiar.

Gardner even suggests the earlier manifestations of the Gadiantons may have been non-Lehites, but not necessarily so.

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When we are introduced to the Gadiantons who gain control over the Nephite government in Helaman, we see them as a similarly separate entity carrying with them these traits of greed and murder:....We have a parallel description of a group of people who are among the Nephites, but are not Nephites. That same group is among the Lamanites, but they are not Lamanites. They are intent on seeking gain, and therefore they murder, rob and plunder. They are Gadiantons. These are the traits of the Central Mexicans of Mormon’s time, and Mormon clearly links the Gadiantons of his own time to this earlier time period, both by name and attributes. Of course the characteristics described, that of murder for political gain and robbings and plunderings, could easily fit with the developing cultural pressures among the Maya at this time period. There is no particular need to see this group as foreign, except in the construction of Mormon’s meta-theme. For Mormon, there is a characteristic of secret combinations that ties together all of the thousands of years of history, and that is a connection to the Jaredites.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui