NDEs and no singularly true faith

[Benjamin Seeker]

Hey, I’ve always found near death experiences fascinating. I’m aware of many Mormons who have taken these experiences to be literal representations of the spirit world or at least some kind of transitory state. 

I’m curious, for those who believe these are literal experiences, how do you deal with the common aspect where the individual is told by a spirit, and angel, or God that no single religion is the exclusively true church. Instead, the truth of each is appropriate for different people in different contexts.

[carbon dioxide]

24 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Hey, I’ve always found near death experiences fascinating. I’m aware of many Mormons who have taken these experiences to be literal representations of the spirit world or at least some kind of transitory state. 

I’m curious, for those who believe these are literal experiences, how do you deal with the common aspect where the individual is told by a spirit, and angel, or God that no single religion is the exclusively true church. Instead, the truth of each is appropriate for different people in different contexts.

First, in the vast majority of NDE that I have read, most of the details are far more consistent with LDS doctrine than views of other faiths.  Yes there are differences but bulk of the material is closer to us than other groups. 

Second, I think the reason is the same for why spirits of the dead are not allowed to show themselves generally to us and tell us which church or faith is true.  That would deny faith and agency in the vast majority of cases.  We also believe that all churches have truth.  We just have the most truth.  Obviously not all churches have the exact same amount of level of truth as not all churches teach the exact same thing.   Since they are all different, the levels of degree of truth they have would be different.

side note :  I do remember a rather famous case of an NDE back in the 80s. I can't remember the name but she was on even Oprah way back then.  She wrote an NDE experience in a book but there was a longer version that I read from her in that was not included in the book.  In that version she was told which church had the most truth and it was the LDS Church.  She did not include that version for obvious reasons.  If I remember correctly, she was raised in the Church but I am not sure if she was active at the time she had it.  I am having to remember back 30 years so most of the facts have been lost from my memory.  This was pre internet days.  I remember reading that longer account on two or three sheets of paper and I can't remember where I got if from. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[SouthernMo]

9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

First, in the vast majority of NDE that I have experienced, most of the details are far more consistent with LDS doctrine than views of other faiths.

How many times have you come close to death?  You’ve had a number of NDEs?

[carbon dioxide]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

How many times have you come close to death?  You’ve had a number of NDEs?

That was a typo, I will change that.  Thanks.  It should be read.   HAHA

Edited November 18, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[JLHPROF]

Because they are "near" death.  If everyone that died and came back all said "hey, turns out the Mormons are right" that would remove the need for faith, seeking, knocking, and putting forth the effort God requires.

"the individual is told by a spirit, and angel, or God that no single religion is the exclusively true church. Instead, the truth of each is appropriate for different people in different contexts."

I'm not convinced of the validity of most NDEs anyway.  I think perspective colors what people see too often rather than showing things as they really are.  I think much is still veiled if the visit is temporary.

And there is a huge difference between one true religion and one true church.  There is absolutely one true religion.  Whether any one Church possesses 100% of it is debatable, but relative truth is nonsense.

[Benjamin Seeker]

31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because they are "near" death.  If everyone that died and came back all said "hey, turns out the Mormons are right" that would remove the need for faith, seeking, knocking, and putting forth the effort God requires.

I think that’s the a pretty typical response. Of course that argument is based on doctrines from Christianity that claims exclusivity in the first place, and it’s also an argument from silence since NDEs themselves don’t offer or infer that information/doctrine.

Quote

but relative truth is nonsense.

For me, relative truth in terms of faith is a beautiful concept that allows every individual to strive toward the divine no matter their context.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I think that’s the a pretty typical response. Of course that argument is based on doctrines from Christianity that claims exclusivity in the first place, and it’s also an argument from silence since NDEs themselves don’t offer or infer that information/doctrine.

For me, relative truth in terms of faith is a beautiful concept that allows every individual to strive toward the divine no matter their context.

Relative truth always makes me think of the blind men describing the elephant.

The elephant is an elephant.  Nothing more or less.  An absolute truth.  The fact that people's relative perspectives allow them to describe different parts and see things differently in no way alters the absolute.  

You can approach the elephant from many directions and perspectives, focus on many different aspects and elements.  You can gain insight from these relative approaches.

But it's still an elephant.  And God is still God.

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

First, in the vast majority of NDE that I have read, most of the details are far more consistent with LDS doctrine than views of other faiths.  Yes there are differences but bulk of the material is closer to us than other groups. 

Second, I think the reason is the same for why spirits of the dead are not allowed to show themselves generally to us and tell us which church or faith is true.  That would deny faith and agency in the vast majority of cases.  We also believe that all churches have truth.  We just have the most truth.  Obviously not all churches have the exact same amount of level of truth as not all churches teach the exact same thing.   Since they are all different, the levels of degree of truth they have would be different.

side note :  I do remember a rather famous case of an NDE back in the 80s. I can't remember the name but she was on even Oprah way back then.  She wrote an NDE experience in a book but there was a longer version that I read from her in that was not included in the book.  In that version she was told which church had the most truth and it was the LDS Church.  She did not include that version for obvious reasons.  If I remember correctly, she was raised in the Church but I am not sure if she was active at the time she had it.  I am having to remember back 30 years so most of the facts have been lost from my memory.  This was pre internet days.  I remember reading that longer account on two or three sheets of paper and I can't remember where I got if from. 

Was this the one? I read her book. Just found her website....https://embracedbythelight.com/

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Tacenda

[Benjamin Seeker]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Relative truth always makes me think of the blind men describing the elephant.

The elephant is an elephant.  Nothing more or less.  An absolute truth.  The fact that people's relative perspectives allow them to describe different parts and see things differently in no way alters the absolute.  

You can approach the elephant from many directions and perspectives, focus on many different aspects and elements.  You can gain insight from these relative approaches.

But it's still an elephant.  And God is still God.

 

Sure. For me, all religions are the blind men.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

How many times have you come close to death?  You’ve had a number of NDEs?

Just 1.

[strappinglad]

If one looks at the NDEs of non Christians , there are still interesting patterns. Some even claim to have met Jesus. Others say they met whomever their spiritual leader was. Atheists have , contrary to their expectations of nothingness, met what they had to concede was a being of great light, power, and love.

Edited November 18, 2018 by strappinglad

[SouthernMo]

45 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Just 1.

You have? Please share if you feel comfortable. 

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

That was a typo, I will change that.  Thanks.  It should be read.   HAHA

Pfew!  With multiple NDEs, one would be simultaneously very lucky and unlucky!

[strappinglad]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

With multiple NDEs, one would be simultaneously very lucky and unlucky!

Kind of like the guy who holds the world record for being struck by lightning . Seven times I think.

[Judd]

8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Kind of like the guy who holds the world record for being struck by lightning . Seven times I think.

Close. 

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Judd

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Sure. For me, all religions are the blind men.

No, the one true religion is the one that has the blindness removed and gets to see even part.  The rest are interpreting based on feel.

[Lucian Hodoboc]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

  We also believe that all churches have truth.  We just have the most truth.  Obviously not all churches have the exact same amount of level of truth as not all churches teach the exact same thing.   Since they are all different, the levels of degree of truth they have would be different.

Most Abrahamic religions believe this, as far as I'm aware. There are Jews, Christians and Muslims who believe that there are some truths scattered here and there in the other religions, but their religion contains the whole truth. I was just watching a YouTube video a few days ago where someone (I'm pretty sure it was a Christian preacher or something along those lines) said pretty much the same thing. 😐

[Derl Sanderson]

I'm wondering if you've read Kevin Christensen's very informative essay on this topic.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Hey, I’ve always found near death experiences fascinating. I’m aware of many Mormons who have taken these experiences to be literal representations of the spirit world or at least some kind of transitory state. 

I’m curious, for those who believe these are literal experiences, how do you deal with the common aspect where the individual is told by a spirit, and angel, or God that no single religion is the exclusively true church. Instead, the truth of each is appropriate for different people in different contexts.

Sorry, I'm do't believe all these are literal experiences, but I will reply anyway. I think people come back and report what they discover to be their true belief (in some cases); recall to various degrees of accuracy (in other cases).

[Maidservant]

The Book of Mormon teaches that there is the way of life and liberty; and the way of death and captivity.  That that is the essence of our choice making on this earth.

I haven't had an NDE nor known anyone (that has shared) close to me with a report.

[Benjamin Seeker]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Sorry, I'm do't believe all these are literal experiences, but I will reply anyway. I think people come back and report what they discover to be their true belief (in some cases); recall to various degrees of accuracy (in other cases).

I think that much of what is experienced seems to be not literal while some aspects seem like they could be literal.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Benjamin Seeker

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I think that much of what is experienced seems to be not literal while some aspects seem like they could be literal.

Agreed; in either case I think what they report is more a deep-retrieval of their true beliefs than any intelligence presented to them by another entity that they can accurately recall.

I think visions and dreams are another category of experience and could be a form of deep-retrieval in some cases and revelation in others.

I'm also thinking that a person having a NDE would be going into a spirit realm where he first meets other, like-minded spirits who will confirm his beliefs that there is no one true religion. Had he continued the death process beyond the point of no return, he would be visited by beings with greater light to share. In the long run, the Church of the Firstborn is not a religion, but I don't think that would be communicated in proper context to someone who hasn't received the ordinances yet.

[AdultConvert]

I heard one lecturer at a medical conference who explained the seemingly common description of seeing bright light.  His opinion was that the electrical activity in the brain explains the  phenomenon.  A person being resuscitated usually hasn't been without heart beat or breath long enough to stop synaptic brain activity.  If electrical brain activity is still functioning, impressions and sensations are formed in memory.  The interpretation of what is stored in memory occurs in consciousness, influenced by the subconscious.  The interpretation is always influenced by knowledge/beliefs/prior memories/emotions, conscious and subconscious. 

I do not believe in visitations, heavenly messages or visions in NDE.  If a person has prior religious/spiritual memories, the interpretation will usually focus on that. 

People with any length of deep coma after resuscitation rarely report memories of NDE upon awakening.  Patients resuscitated on surgical operating table do not have NDE memories.  The drugs/gasses have them in a state that no sensations or impressions are stored in accessible memory to be interpreted. 

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Hey, I’ve always found near death experiences fascinating. I’m aware of many Mormons who have taken these experiences to be literal representations of the spirit world or at least some kind of transitory state. 

I’m curious, for those who believe these are literal experiences, how do you deal with the common aspect where the individual is told by a spirit, and angel, or God that no single religion is the exclusively true church. Instead, the truth of each is appropriate for different people in different contexts.

The gospel is true no matter who teaches it. Christ is our Savior who was resurrected, and forgives the repentant sinner. The differences mostly deal with reconciling scripture. Some really do not have the authority to teach the gospel, but still manage to blurt out basic truths, because they listen to the prophets they know. 

I do believe most of these experiences you are describing are literal experiences. I believe spirits are eternal, so what you are hearing is their description of the spirit world. Ultimately, "the Church" is not an earthly body, but an eternal kingdom of our Savior. That is the True Church. However, I have to disagree to the extent you or they are implying that no Church has more truth than another. That is just not true. However, a church might be the best place for a certain person because of practical reasons - maybe there is no ward in their area.  Maybe they are supposed to be at a specific church because of other people there. We just can't judge all the intricate possibilities. 

[strappinglad]

A friend of mine , an MD , told me of his experience early in his career where he had to revive a man whose heart had stopped. He had to use the paddles several times and finally got the fellow back to regular heart beats. The next morning he went in to see the guy and was met with serious cursing. The man said, " It was you, you !@#$$% " My friend asked what the problem was. The guy said that he was in great pain and then he was free of his body and in no pain floating above when the doctor rushed in and used the electric shock paddles and BAM he was back in the pain wracked body, then he was free again and painless and floating up and BAM he was back in pain. He was unconscious the whole time but from his floating vantage point he could 'see' the doctor who administered the shocks. He recognized him as soon as my friend entered the room.

   There are several documented NDEs where the person was under full monitoring and had flat EKGs and EEG ,at least one for 20 minutes. The person was able to recount the entire resuscitation process and even conversations between the doctors. All this with eyes bandaged shut and ears blocked. Oxygen starved brains don't explain the clarity of vision reported.