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David Bokovoy on Mormon Stories

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3 hours ago, Exiled said:

Perhaps it will change for the former president if people start believing his views.

Why would anyone believe his views over their own knowledge and experience?

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Also, being vocal about one's disagreement with the church at church can be problematic depending on how vocal one becomes.

I think it's more an issue of stridency and advocacy rather than how vocal one is. I've had people speak up in Sunday school class and say they didn't believe what I was trying to teach. No one was fussed since it was a statement of personal belief and not an attempt to destroy the Church or another's faith.

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How do you know what the former president believes?

I've served in our bishopric three times. I've interviewed him.

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Does he express his disbelief in the middle of Sunday school or at the pulpit? Or is it expressed privately in the foyer?

He's not invited to speak from the pulpit for obvious reasons. If he makes a comment in Sunday school or elders quorum that expresses disbelief, he might preface it by reminding us that he's a non-believer. I'm not privy to his private conversations in the foyer.

Again, the all-important distinction is that this man is obviously not trying to destroy the Church from the inside. No one would suspect him of that. It's such a clear line in my opinion.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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Just now, sunstoned said:

Many people are put of by Bill's tone.  One thing about Bill Reel is that he backs up any accusations that he make with facts.  

I think you're right and Bill does read, I believe as much as he says he does. Unlike me, I quit reading as much as I did, and now just read discussion boards with links mostly. But definitely his tone, I believe the church has people looking at things Bill says on FB or his podcasts. Bill's tone is what did it, like you said, and certain remarks I'm sure. Sometimes it is so constant, but Bill just wants truth. But if it's not a faithful aproach, such as Fairmormon puts out, then it becomes a problem.

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6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Bill just wants truth.

As opposed to the rest of us, who just want to be deceived, no doubt ...

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29 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As opposed to the rest of us, who just want to be deceived, no doubt ...

I wish you would quote this in context. 

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1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I wish you would quote this in context. 

 

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think you're right and Bill does read, I believe as much as he says he does. Unlike me, I quit reading as much as I did, and now just read discussion boards with links mostly. But definitely his tone, I believe the church has people looking at things Bill says on FB or his podcasts. Bill's tone is what did it, like you said, and certain remarks I'm sure. Sometimes it is so constant, but Bill just wants truth. But if it's not a faithful aproach, such as Fairmormon puts out, then it becomes a problem [bold added].

As opposed to the rest of us, who just want to be deceived, no doubt ...

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8 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Many people are put off by Bill's tone.  One thing about Bill Reel is that he backs up any accusations that he make with facts.  

Not really.

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8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think you're right and Bill does read, I believe as much as he says he does. Unlike me, I quit reading as much as I did, and now just read discussion boards with links mostly. But definitely his tone, I believe the church has people looking at things Bill says on FB or his podcasts. Bill's tone is what did it, like you said, and certain remarks I'm sure. Sometimes it is so constant, but Bill just wants truth. But if it's not a faithful aproach, such as Fairmormon puts out, then it becomes a problem.

My experience with him has been quite different.  See here.

Frankly, I was not impressed with Bill Reel's familiarity with the subjects on which he speaks.  His tone and posture and whatnot were, obviously, risible and profane.  Intentionally provocative and offensive.

I hope he has a change of heart.

Thanks,

-Smac

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11 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

David Bokovoy has stopped attending but he has not resigned as I recall. 

I don't have the impression he intends to become an activist about his views. No podcasts, no blogs, etcetera. He may have granted this interview as a way of preparing for an upcoming release of the second volume in what appeared to be a planned series on the Old Testament.  

But: I am speculating on this last.  Purely opining. 

I know him to be very thoughtful of the consequences of his actions on the course he intends to pursue in the future. What ever that direction is, it is well planned. I have had a few interactions with him which show that clearly.

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41 minutes ago, smac97 said:

My experience with him has been quite different.  See here.

Frankly, I was not impressed with Bill Reel's familiarity with the subjects on which he speaks.  His tone and posture and whatnot were, obviously, risible and profane.  Intentionally provocative and offensive.

I hope he has a change of heart.

Thanks,

-Smac

Agreed in all respects.  I was invited to do a podcast a few years ago, and withdrew when it became clear the intent was to turn it into a debate ambush.

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44 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I sort of have a problem with long-form podcasts (such as Dehlin's and Reel's and Consig's), and also coply-and-paste "Big Lists" (such as Reel's and Runnells's).  While I appreciate the nuggets of useful information that can arise, it sure takes a huge amount of effort to extract them.  Listening to hundreds/thousands of hours of podcasts is not my idea of a good time.  I'd much rather have written statements that are thought-out, organized, methodical, referenced/annotated, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

Also I  am a pretty quick reader- sometimes too quick- but I learned that as a post grad when the material was dense dense philosophy stuff, and lots of it,  I became good at finding the "nuggets" and pretty much retain that ability when reading.  But podcasts?  Hours of prattle waiting for something I don't know to show up?  No ability to skim to the "good stuff"?   Going over all the old stuff again and again that have been on every list every critic has ever prattled about?

I lose interest and then miss the nuggets while reading something else.

No thanks!!  ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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I have to see stuff to remember it, hearing just doesn't take.

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13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Also I  am a pretty quick reader- sometimes too quick- but I learned that as a post grad when the material was dense dense philosophy stuff, and lots of it,  I became good at finding the "nuggets" and pretty much retain that ability when reading.  But podcasts?  Hours of prattle waiting for something I don't know to show up?  No ability to skim to the "good stuff"?   Going over all the old stuff again and again that have been on every list every critic has ever prattled about?

I lose interest and then miss the nuggets while reading something else.

No thanks!!  ;)

I can't help but wonder if podcasts provide a veneer of erudition, when in fact they are just long, meandering chit-chats.

John Dehlin's podcasts are occasionally interesting, but only because he has sufficient notoriety to attract interviewees that may merit attention.  Mr. Dehlin's interviewing style is, for me, way to partisan and meandering and off-the-cuff.  Not very thoughtful.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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Just now, Calm said:

I have to see stuff to remember it, hearing just doesn't take.

Yea- I have a good memory for the logic of arguments, like a flow chart,  and following a thread of comments in a debate- stuff I read years ago - "x leads to y which implies z which could indicate b" but ask me where my keys are or where I put the  charger for the phone and we have another issue entirely.  ;)  Finding and matching socks in the laundry bin is a major setback in my life. (jk)

 

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2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I can't help but wonder if podcasts provide a veneer of erudition, when in fact their just long, meandering chit-chats.

John Dehlin's podcasts are occasionally interesting, but only because he has sufficient notoriety to attract interviewees that may merit attention.  Mr. Dehlin's interviewing style is, for me, way to partisan and meandering and off-the-cuff.  Not very thoughtful.

Thanks,

-Smac

Quite honestly  I think I started listening to one and quit somewhere in the initial small talk greeting, which took a good 5 minutes of my life, never to be  replaced. ;)

 

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29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I can't help but wonder if podcasts provide a veneer of erudition, when in fact they are just long, meandering chit-chats.

John Dehlin's podcasts are occasionally interesting, but only because he has sufficient notoriety to attract interviewees that may merit attention.  Mr. Dehlin's interviewing style is, for me, way to partisan and meandering and off-the-cuff.  Not very thoughtful.

Thanks,

-Smac

One does not develop and expound a thesis in a conversation, or develop a new paradigm.  ;)

And  if one has been at this for a while one has probably heard all the old ones and one will  hear a new one if it comes  along anyway.  You know someone here will post it and we will have this exact conversation then again anyway.  ;)

"Insatiably, 'da capo'"- Nietzsche

http://nietzsche.holtof.com/reader/friedrich-nietzsche/beyond-good-and-evil/aphorism-56-quote_90f9a8685.html

 

 

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I listened to the Bokovoy interview over the weekend on a long drive home from visiting out of state family.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.  He's got a fascinating story going from barely graduating high school and needing a special MTC tutor to learn Portuguese to becoming a PhD grad from Brandeis and speaking multiple languages (including ancient Babylonian that has been an "extinct" language for 5,000 years).

This first set of podcast episodes (https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/david-bokovoy/) covers his life story (conversion, mission, education, church, and CES experiences).

I'm more looking forward to the next set of podcasts (not yet published) that is supposed to cover some of the highlight of his Hebrew Bible studies.  Should be excellent.

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50 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I can't help but wonder if podcasts provide a veneer of erudition, when in fact they are just long, meandering chit-chats.

John Dehlin's podcasts are occasionally interesting, but only because he has sufficient notoriety to attract interviewees that may merit attention.  Mr. Dehlin's interviewing style is, for me, way to partisan and meandering and off-the-cuff.  Not very thoughtful.

Thanks,

-Smac

Podcasts are not likely to be the most efficient means of gathering information.  Nor are they intended to be.  But they can be quite educational and entertaining.  The Bokovoy interview was both for me.

We're members of a church that loves oral teaching methods... every single Sunday for several hours.  Podcasts aren't really all that different.

While I prefer reading books, podcasts are an amazing option when doing things that make reading impossible (exercising and driving).

I'll also add that criticisms of Dehlin's interviewing style and his weaknesses as a podcast host often had merit in the past.  But, I think he has improved quite a bit over the last couple years.

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1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Podcasts are not likely to be the most efficient means of gathering information. 

Or distributing it.

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Nor are they intended to be.  But they can be quite educational and entertaining.  The Bokovoy interview was both for me.

Alas, I'm not particularly interested in being entertained.  Educated, yes.  Entertained, no.

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We're members of a church that loves oral teaching methods... every single Sunday for several hours.  Podcasts aren't really all that different.

I'm okay with oral teaching methods.  Sunday, for me, is more about taking the Sacrament, worshipping God, and communing with and edifying (and being edified by) my fellow travelers.  There is some instruction in that, but such instruction is from the Scriptures, from people in authority, and is coming from people who seek to lift up and strengthen our faith in and understanding of the Restored Gospel.

In the main, podcasts from people like Dehlin and Reel don't do any of that.  They are, instead, often unpleasant and meandering diatribes that are intended to criticize, ridicule, profane, and tear down things I hold sacred.  So while I listen on occasion, it's more often because I'm willing to endure the unpleasantness if it means finding a few bits of useful information, or in better understanding perspectives other than my own.  But it's nothing like going to Church.  Nothing.

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I'll also add that criticisms of Dehlin's interviewing style and his weaknesses as a podcast host often had merit in the past.  But, I think he has improved quite a bit over the last couple years.

Still meandering and too long.  Still way too partisan.  Still not very informed or thoughtful in his questions.  

In a way, though, you are correct.  Previously he was, I think, faking non-partisanship.  That's long gone now.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Or distributing it.

Alas, I'm not particularly interested in being entertained.  Educated, yes.  Entertained, no.

I'm okay with oral teaching methods.  Sunday, for me, is more about taking the Sacrament, worshipping God, and communing with and edifying (and being edified by) my fellow travelers.  There is some instruction in that, but such instruction is from the Scriptures, from people in authority, and is coming from people who seek to life up and strengthen our faith in and understanding of the Restored Gospel.

In the main, podcasts from people like Dehlin and Reel don't do any of that.  They are, instead, often unpleasant and meandering diatribes that are intended to criticize, ridicule, profane, and tear down things I hold sacred.  So while I listen on occasion, it's more often because I'm willing to endure the unpleasantness if it means finding a few bits of useful information, or in better understanding perspectives other than my own.  But it's nothing like going to Church.  Nothing.

Still meandering and too long.  Still way too partisan.  Still not very informed or thoughtful in his questions.  

In a way, though, you are correct.  Previously he was, I think, faking non-partisanship.  That's long gone now.  

Thanks,

-Smac

While this Bokovoy interview won't be for everyone -- I believe that those who don't listen have missed out on a fascinating and informative story from a man with a unique perspective and education.

And for those who don't like Dehlin, he doesn't do much talking in this one (similar to the Dusty Johns interview).

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24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Still meandering and too long.  Still way too partisan.  Still not very informed or thoughtful in his questions.  

When was the last time you listened to one?  Your usage of the word "still" gives the impression you just did.  If not, then you honestly don't know what he "still" does.

Have you listened to this specific podcast (with Bokovoy)?

(I have not listened to it and rarely listen to podcasts.....but what rockpond states makes me want to listen to this one!) 

Edited by ALarson

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4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

When was the last time you listened to one?  Your usage of the word "still" gives the impression you just did.  If not, then you honestly don't know what he "still" does.

Have you listened to this specific podcast (with Bokovoy)?

(I have not listened to it and rarely listen to podcasts.....but what rockpond states makes me want to listen to this one!) 

Good point... when @smac97 says "still", I wonder which MS podcasts he has listened to recently.  Dehlin's questions are way more informed and thoughtful these days than they were in his earlier podcasts.  I tend to think that both his educational pursuits over the last few years and that this is now a full-time gig for him have improved the quality of his interviewing.

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3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I know him to be very thoughtful of the consequences of his actions on the course he intends to pursue in the future. What ever that direction is, it is well planned. I have had a few interactions with him which show that clearly.

I expect his comments are genuine and sincere. But if he intends to move forward on the Old Testament series, his publisher may have encouraged him to do a little bit to generate some advance interest and publicity for the next book. 

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14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Good point... when @smac97 says "still", I wonder which MS podcasts he has listened to recently.  Dehlin's questions are way more informed and thoughtful these days than they were in his earlier podcasts.  I tend to think that both his educational pursuits over the last few years and that this is now a full-time gig for him have improved the quality of his interviewing.

I will really try to listen to this one.  Thanks for your input regarding the interview.

I honestly feel that no one here should be making derogatory comments about it when they have not even listened to the podcast.  Seems a bit odd to me and I hope anyone who wants to taken seriously about their opinion will take the time to actually listen and if they choose not to, that they'll refrain from posting the negative comments.  I'll do the same regarding my opinion (not comment until I've listened to the interview).

Edited by ALarson

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29 minutes ago, ALarson said:

When was the last time you listened to one?  Your usage of the word "still" gives the impression you just did. 

About two weeks ago.

29 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Have you listened to this specific podcast (with Bokovoy)?

No.

Thanks,

-Smac

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