Disturbing New Statistics about Seminary

[MustardSeed]

Nehor- Of course I’m projecting.  I believe we all are.  We are human.  I meant it not as an accusation but as a genuine question. 

And to clarify, I think the folks who present only their righteous sides here and in life have genuinely good things to say.  I simply don’t believe anyone is perfect and I no longer try to pretend that I am .  If there’s room for me here under those circumstances then it will work well enough for me . 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Oh my gosh.  When our oldest son was entering high school, it was a huge struggle to get him to go to Seminary from day one.  I wasn't being very helpful, and when I pointed out to my wife that I have no problem making him go to Church but that Seminary is "optional", you would have thought I had suggested pulling him out of school and sending him to clown college.

Your comment just gave me a flashback to that night on the couch...

Ironically, our second child was very motivated to go to seminary, but then her Senior year they called the one teacher in the stake that my wife would not allow our daughter to be taught by, so we asked that she be allowed to do home study.  They wouldn't allow it, so she didn't graduate

We'll see if our third child is the one to actually make it.

 

FWIW, among all the rumors of changes at the last Conference, I was hoping for reducing the number of Seminary days to something like Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday or something like that.  There's no reason it has to be five days a week.

In our school district, high schools use “A and B scheduling,” which means that the class periods, including those during which seminary is held, alternate on the days they are held. So apparently, it’s not Churchwide that it be held five days a week. 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In our school district, high schools use “A and B scheduling,” which means that the class periods, including those during which seminary is held, alternate on the days they are held. So apparently, it’s not Churchwide that it be held five days a week. 

We are 4x. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Everything about life is optional, yes. 

Just pointing out that if you feel that strongly about wishing it were canceled, it is within your (or your family’s) control not to be burdened with it. 

[Danzo]

30 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Because seminary tends to improve the spiritual well-being of the individual?

Most of the worthwhile things I have done in life have been difficult to do, and sometimes seemingly futile when underway.  In hindsight, however, I am glad I did them. 

I am glad that, as a teen, I was involved in scouting, and in band, and marching band, and orchestra, and debate, even though all of these activities took a lot of time and included wasted time. 

I am glad that I later served in the military, even though much of my time spent in the military was spent doing mundane things. 

I am glad I then served a mission, even though the bulk of my time was spent walking from door to door. 

I am glad I am married and am the father of six children, even though it means I have virtually no time to call my own, and even though there are a lot of pressures and obligations that go with it.

Yesterday I spent the few hours of "free time" I had on my roof, applying some patches on apparent leaks.  An hour or so ago my wife called and said she is sick, so dinner is my responsibility.  And I need to go shopping, too.  And pick up my daughter at her job.  And I have several hours of work to do.  And some Church stuff, too.

Many of the greatest things in life have elements of mundanity, repetition, stress, and so on.  They also have moments of joy, and illumination, and gratitude.  

Was seminary a waste of time for me?  On balance, I don't think so.  I can't specifically detect the benefits, but I think they happened, and that they outnumbered the drawbacks to attending.

Thanks,

-Smac

I agree with you that seminary has value, what I was questioning was the value of the "graduation".

I would encourage people to attend seminary even if they have no way or intention to  graduate (say they start mid term, or just joined the church or even wanted to investigate the church).

It's the attendance and the subsequent knowledge that has value, not the fact of having graduated or not.

If, on some technicality, my children weren't able to 'graduate' from seminary, I would still encourage them to attend as much as possible for the learning and experience.

I think that sometimes the emphasis on getting 'credit' or 'graduating' or getting a 'good grade' can cause people to not want to go as often because if they don't get the brownie points for going, what the point?

When it comes to seminary we should, as much as possible avoid aspiring to the honors of men and focus more on using it as an opportunity for fellowship, worship and learning. 

 

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Nehor- Of course I’m projecting.  I believe we all are.  We are human.  I meant it not as an accusation but as a genuine question. 

And to clarify, I think the folks who present only their righteous sides here and in life have genuinely good things to say.  I simply don’t believe anyone is perfect and I no longer try to pretend that I am .  If there’s room for me here under those circumstances then it will work well enough for me . 

There is room for you. It is hard when you’ve tried to do everything right and it blows up on you. I thought we were going to be “the perfect Mormon family.” We served and did our FHE and read scriptures and my kids were doing great! And then suddenly we were not. And instead of helping, church leaders seemed to make it worse. I felt betrayed and we are still recovering. It’s hard. I found a deeper testimony of the Savior and a realistic testimony of church and its inhererent flaws. 

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just pointing out that if you feel that strongly about wishing it were canceled, it is within your (or your family’s) control not to be burdened with it. 

 Of course! 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

There is room for you. It is hard when you’ve tried to do everything right and it blows up on you. I thought we were going to be “the perfect Mormon family.” We served and did our FHE and read scriptures and my kids were doing great! And then suddenly we were not. And instead of helping, church leaders seemed to make it worse. I felt betrayed and we are still recovering. It’s hard. I found a deeper testimony of the Savior and a realistic testimony of church and its inhererent flaws. 

Are you me? 

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

And pretending to be perfect is not a purely bad thing. It depends on how it is done. I Covenanted to take upon myself the name of Christ, an act of unspeakable arrogance, but God commanded me to do it.

I think pretending to be perfect is almost always a bad thing.  It is deceptive and it creates unhealthy and unrealistic ideas in the minds of impressionable people and youth who look up to you, often leading to shame issues.  I don't think that taking upon us the name of Christ implies perfection or the need to fake it, nor do I find it to be an arrogant act, but in fact is humbling.   

Quote

I am not like Christ. I am not willing or even able to sacrifice all to the Father. That being said I can try to figure out what that means and pretend I do fit that profile so that my submission allows the grace of Christ to bring me closer to that ideal. There is, of course, the negative sense in which people imagine they are farther in that journey then they really are but I think that condition is overdiagnosed.

I agree with your comment on grace but I don't think any pretending is required.  Our submission is to admit our weaknesses, only through that honest inventory of the self will Christ's grace bring us closer to the ideal.  Pretending doesn't help anybody in my opinion. We see it a lot on social media, but it is more hurtful then helpful for most.   

Edited November 13, 2018 by pogi

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

I think pretending to be perfect is almost always a bad thing.  It is deceptive and it creates unhealthy and unrealistic ideas in the minds of impressionable people and youth who look up to you, often leading to shame issues.  I don't think that taking upon us the name of Christ implies perfection or the need to fake it, nor do I find it to be an arrogant act, but in fact is humbling.   

I agree with your comment on grace but I don't think any pretending is required.  Our submission is to admit our weaknesses, only through that honest inventory of the self will Christ's grace bring us closer to the ideal.  Pretending doesn't help anybody in my opinion. We see it a lot on social media, but it is more hurtful then helpful for most.   

There are two kinds of pretending. One is deceptive like you said. The other is like a teenager or a child pretending to be an adult through mimickry. It is awkward at times but it is not deceptive.

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Are you me? 

I’ve felt that way all day reading your posts. We are not alone. 

[JAHS]

Those early morning seminaries are hard on the instructor who has to try to teach those kids when half the class is asleep in their chairs.  I wonder how much they really remember?
 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Those early morning seminaries are hard on the instructor who has to try to teach those kids when half the class is asleep in their chairs.  I wonder how much they really remember?
 

I have often subbed seminary.  I draw from all my bag of tricks to engage as well as try to invite the spirit to speak to someone if not everyone.  I love teaching it, the kids love to see me coming but could I could not in any way teach full time. It is bruuuuutal.  

[Garden Girl]

Reading this thread brought back a lot of memories... some really good... some challenging... some even humorous... like for instance, this one year I rode from my home in Rialto, CA with our teacher who came from Colton and would pick up the Rialto kids... we had to attend seminary in our ward, which was in Fontana... then we kids would car pool to high school in San Bernardino.  (Now the Church has grown so much... Rialto is now a stake... there are 3 temples, Redlands, Newport, Los Angeles). 

Anyway, our teacher had this old car that was loud, would backfire, gears would grind, etc.  I could hear him coming for blocks... and our neighbors hated it as he would come careening down our block... sputtering and backfiring all the way... every morning at 5:30 a.m.! 

GG  

[let’s roll]

13 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I car pool picked up a traumatized group of girls one morning from seminary after Katrina. Teacher told them specifically that the hurricane was the fault of the gays. 

I told them she was a fool.  

 

I’m contemplating starting another thread to ask folks who’ve had experiences similar to this whether they pass the information along to CES and/or Stake leaders.  

Am I the only one who, if told the above, would tell both CES and Stake Leaders, If this is true, I plan to inform the parents of all the students in the class because I believe they have the right to know, and my child won’t be attending this Seminary class while that teacher is teaching.

[let’s roll]

Btw, I taught early morning seminary for four years about 20 years ago.  Went in with low expectations because my experience with early morning and home study seminary was, to be charitable, mixed.

I loved it.  Many of my students still keep in touch all these years later.  

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I’m contemplating sta,rting another thread to ask folks who’ve had experiences similar to this whether they pass the information along to CES and/or Stake leaders.  

Am I the only one who, if told the above, would tell both CES and Stake Leaders, If this is true, I plan to inform the parents of all the students in the class because I believe they have the right to know, and my child won’t be attending this Seminary class while that teacher is teaching.

My daughter had a teacher for her Old Testament year that hewed to a very orthodox view on many things and taught young-earth creationism, curse of Cain (black skin), insensitive and rude comments about homosexuals, (offending several students who had gay family members),  disparaging comments to students who dared speak up, etc.

We complained to CES and the stake leaders.  Nothing was done.

Conversely, my son had a fantastic teacher his freshman year.  He was a young guy with a lot of energy and motivation who really put his heart into teaching.  He had great lessons and really tried to relate to the kids.  Some in CES thought he tried a little too hard, and he was released after two years (Bob Crockett probably knows who I'm talking about).  From what I can tell, CES leadership can be pretty dang out of touch when it comes to what works with youth these days.

[let’s roll]

15 minutes ago, cinepro said:

My daughter had a teacher for her Old Testament year that hewed to a very orthodox view on many things and taught young-earth creationism, curse of Cain (black skin), insensitive and rude comments about homosexuals, (offending several students who had gay family members),  disparaging comments to students who dared speak up, etc.

We complained to CES and the stake leaders.  Nothing was done.

Conversely, my son had a fantastic teacher his freshman year.  He was a young guy with a lot of energy and motivation who really put his heart into teaching.  He had great lessons and really tried to relate to the kids.  Some in CES thought he tried a little too hard, and he was released after two years (Bob Crockett probably knows who I'm talking about).  From what I can tell, CES leadership can be pretty dang out of touch when it comes to what works with youth these days.

Understood.  It’s not my prerogative to change instructors, but it is my prerogative as to doing the other things I described.

My CES supervisor was the Director of the Institute at Mt. SAC.  We were asked to teach in a white shirt and tie, I typically taught in a sweat suit, and would go on a run after class.  Each of the 4 years I taught, he’d drop in to the class two or three times a year.  I’m pretty sure I had my sweats on every time, and every time he told me with a smile that if that was my strategy for getting released, it wasn’t going to work.

I love that man.

If you know Bob, you’re probably up in the Santa Clarita area.  I attended law school with his sister.  

 

[mfbukowski]

On 11/12/2018 at 10:29 PM, Thinking said:

This thread is like one of those internet articles that creates a headline designed to get enough traffic to earn advertising dollars. Then when I click on it and notice the link to The Onion, I realize that The Nehor is just playing with us (although I can't determine his objective since there are no advertising dollars available on MDDB). He must be like that teenage boy who wads up wet paper towels and throws them against the bathroom ceiling just to watch them stick.

Ah too much cold caffeine tonight hey?

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You do realize tha seminary is optional, right?

AND there are "home school" options for those who cannot physically attend.  I guess that is hard to conceive of in Utah where there is a chapel on every block.

The church DOES do seminary in locations where the nearest chapel is 50 miles away and actual attendance is not an option.  Even in our stake we do this because we have several school districts with different starting times, school schedules etc.  Our stake is only about 10 miles by 5 miles but the traffic is horrendous.  

[Calm]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

My daughter had a teacher for her Old Testament year that hewed to a very orthodox view on many things and taught young-earth creationism, curse of Cain (black skin), insensitive and rude comments about homosexuals, (offending several students who had gay family members),  disparaging comments to students who dared speak up, etc.

We complained to CES and the stake leaders.  Nothing was done.

Conversely, my son had a fantastic teacher his freshman year.  He was a young guy with a lot of energy and motivation who really put his heart into teaching.  He had great lessons and really tried to relate to the kids.  Some in CES thought he tried a little too hard, and he was released after two years (Bob Crockett probably knows who I'm talking about).  From what I can tell, CES leadership can be pretty dang out of touch when it comes to what works with youth these days.

I have a young relative who quit after a year or two in CES even though she had been so excited and committed to to the job, because of the limitations placed on her (and she is not the least bit radical).

[Calm]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

AND there are "home school" options for those who cannot physically attend.  I guess that is hard to conceive of in Utah where there is a chapel on every block.

The church DOES do seminary in locations where the nearest chapel is 50 miles away and actual attendance is not an option.  Even in our stake we do this because we have several school districts with different starting times, school schedules etc.  Our stake is only about 10 miles by 5 miles but the traffic is horrendous.  

Home school has to be approved though to get credit.  And it sounds like this may be more difficult in some areas than others.  We wanted to just do independent study with my daughter, but they arranged for a teacher to come by once a week.  Amounted to him and me talking and her curled up in a chair withdrawing more and more because she felt forced into it  we gave up after a year.  Really nice guy, but it would have been better to allow either her dad or me to work with her if they wanted adult supervision.

BYU was never an option for her, so our decision was based solely on whether it was helping her at that moment.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Calm

[strappinglad]

I attended release time seminary for 4 years. I learned( before correlation) about most everything that the CES letter fusses over. MMM, Joseph's wives etc. Very little about church history was a surprise. In my opinion, vaccinations need to be early and often.

  It seems to me that the new changes in the 2 hour block etc. are  a way to urge us all into more " home study " , I hope we will take the challenge but at the same time I am fearful of the results in a decade. I have seen the results of academic home schooling when it was done correctly and when it was done very poorly.

[gopher]

On 11/13/2018 at 2:09 PM, bsjkki said:

Yeah but at the Stake seminary kick-off  lectures they remind (threats) that if you want to serve a foreign mission or go to a church school seminary graduation is basically required.

 

There may be some truth in that at least according to a member of the ward who has a son that left for Brazil last week.  She says Brazil requires missionaries to have extensive training beyond just the few weeks in the MTC before they can work in the country.  The church claims the four years of seminary fulfills that requirement.  Anyone heard anything similar?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

There may be some truth in that at least according to a member of the ward who has a son that left for Brazil last week.  She says Brazil requires missionaries to have extensive training beyond just the few weeks in the MTC before they can work in the country.  The church claims the four years of seminary fulfills that requirement.  Anyone heard anything similar?

That would make sense.  

For some reason when we went to Canada...or was it when he went with his dad to Russia  they put my son on a minister's permit rather than a student's.  He was 8 or 10 at the time depending on which country it was, I will have to see if someone else remembers.  Anyway, for some countries, it would appear a minister's permit requires a warm body.  I was shocked when I found out that was the designation  as Iwould have though it would have more requirements.