Marriage covenants

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, changed said:

A vow of loyalty goes against a vow of polygamy.  

I don't know what this means, either.

Quote

Loyalty - as from the other normal Christian vows - 

Do you promise to love, honor, cherish and protect her, forsaking all others and holding only to her forevermore?

Polygamy is not presently practiced in the Church.  It is, instead, an excommunicable offense.

I don't understand your point here.

Surely you are not claiming that the Church condones or excuses or winks at infidelity.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 11, 2018 by smac97

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, changed said:

??

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

So - the second wife is not someone to "cleave" to?  

no one else = not cleaving to anyone else = only one person that you cleave to... it is pretty clear...

 No, scripture say to cleave only to a wife.  The prohibition is against those who are not wives.  Not a limit on number of wives.  The original law of chastity matched this perfectly.

[Jane_Doe]

48 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I am in a mixed-faith marriage (my husband is LDS, I have left the church).  Yes, it is a serious point for me - it concerns my marriage (or lack thereof).  It feels as if there were no real vows made in the temple - it feels like the vows were to a church, not to a person... no "you may now kiss the bride", no "love cherish and honor one another and no one else", just a vow to the church, a vow of polygamy.  

I went in - not knowing what what was going to be said, not knowing what I would be required to "promise"...

Real covenants, real vows - done with full free agency - include knowing what you are signing, knowing what you are promising.  

What makes a contract valid?  If there are hidden agendas... I did not know what would be said, I did not know all the details of the "new and everlasting covenant", I was lied to.  Deceit.  Duress.  

 

I'm a little confused here... your husband has covenant with GOD to only have sexual relations with his wife (which is you).  I'm sure if you ask him, he'll even remind you of that and (re)promise you today, and give you yet another kiss.  He's also promised and made a legal commitment.  He's 100% yours.

And yet.... you doubt him and are not happy?  You want him to promise to more than you + civil authority + God Himself?  

Edited November 11, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[JAHS]

26 minutes ago, changed said:

 

The Mormon version of the "law of chastity" is not really a law of chastity - 132 is polygamy - being sealed to more than one person, that is not chastity.

 

It is if you are married/sealed to them.

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, changed said:

 

The Mormon version of the "law of chastity" is not really a law of chastity - 132 is polygamy - being sealed to more than one person, that is not chastity.

 

Why?  

[LoudmouthMormon]

I don't get Changed's point here.  Here - use me as a case study.

I have a troubled marriage by any reasonable definition.  Wife and I have spent years in counseling, trying hard since 2011, but things seem to be only getting worse.  There is no intimacy of any sort - spiritual, emotional, or physical.  The only thing we seem to see eye to eye on, is that things are horrible, and it's affecting the kids.  Everything else is an argument that goes south fast.   It's been this way for years, and every year it seems to find a way to get worse.  Both of us are entertaining the notion that it might be healthier for the kids if we were apart, but neither of us seem to be certain of that yet, so we try, and we fight, and we fail, and we hurt.

Even though this has been happening for years, I wouldn't dream of cheating on her.  It's not in the program.  I promised I wouldn't do anything like that when I knelt across from her at the altar in the temple.  My temple covenants are a cornerstone of my fidelity, my loyalty, my lack of any unchaste behavior with another human in any form.  The stuff I hear in talks at my church are only attempts to buttress and strengthen my marriage.  Full of warnings against straying.  Full of urging to try harder and hope and pray and stay.

Changed, are you sure you're talking about the same church I am?

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

The Mormon version of the "law of chastity" is not really a law of chastity - 132 is polygamy - being sealed to more than one person, that is not chastity.

 

The Law of Chastity wording has been changed and was different back when polygamy was being practiced by church members (the wording in the temple).

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, changed said:

It is common sense, and yet, there is no vow of loyalty in the LDs covenants.  ... There is room for polygammy.  (I see JS and BY as being an adulterous husbands).  

Even today, LDS marraige is not a marriage that involves loyalty...

Thinking about this, the LDS version of a marriage "covenant" is not a covenant at all - no vow of loyalty = no vow at all in my opinion.  

infidelity, affairs, cheating, adultery - that is not a marriage.  

There are two kinds of marriage conducted by Mormon clergy:  (1) regular, for time, and (2) the other for ever.  Any LDS clergyman authorized by his state can conduct the first, but only authorized temple sealers may conduct the second.

In either case, the usual biblical commandments are always fully applicable.  That is the context.  If you see the two wives of Abraham, and the four wives of Jacob as adulterous affairs, then of course that is not a biblical definition, but one hobnailed together by critics in a spirit of hatred.  When God gave multiple wives to King David through prophetic order (2 Sam 12:7), one has to ask whether polygamy is ordered and regulated by God (Ex 21:10).  That applies also to levirate marriage (Deut 21:15-17, 25:5-10; http://www.blainerobison.com/hebroots/levirate.htm ).  See also http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/polygamists/  (list of biblical polygamists)

Martin Luther wrote: "I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter."  [Luther, De Wette II, 459, ibid., pp. 329–330.]

Just because you are angry at Mormons is no excuse to bear false witness about them. 

ETA: Sorry I got the number of wives wrong on the first go round.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, changed said:

 

It is common sense, and yet, there is no vow of loyalty in the LDs covenants.  ... There is room for polygammy.  (I see JS and BY as being an adulterous husbands).  

Even today, LDS marraige is not a marriage that involves loyalty...

Thinking about this, the LDS version of a marriage "covenant" is not a covenant at all - no vow of loyalty = no vow at all in my opinion.  

infidelity, affairs, cheating, adultery - that is not a marriage.  

You’re not just trolling here, are you?

[Tacenda]

Just now, ksfisher said:

You’re not just trolling here, are you?

Trolling? Changed has been here long enough to know she's not a drive by. Maybe you think I troll though and I'm here constantly for years.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

It is common sense, and yet, there is no vow of loyalty in the LDs covenants.  ... There is room for polygammy.  (I see JS and BY as being an adulterous husbands).  

Even today, LDS marraige is not a marriage that involves loyalty...

Thinking about this, the LDS version of a marriage "covenant" is not a covenant at all - no vow of loyalty = no vow at all in my opinion.  

infidelity, affairs, cheating, adultery - that is not a marriage.  

Anyone sealed in the temple has already made covenants about fidelity to God.

The church also punishes those who commit adultery and are often excommunicated for it. The idea that the LDS are permissible About unfaithful spouses is pretty ridiculous.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, changed said:

The typical marriage covenant goes something like:

Would you please face each other and join hands.
(Groom) ___________________do you take _________________to be your wife?
Do you promise to love, honor, cherish and protect her, forsaking all others
and holding only to her forevermore?
(“I do”)
(Bride) ________________do you take_________________ to be your Husband?
Do you promise to love, honor, cherish and protect him, forsaking all others
and holding only to him forevermore?

http://www.vowsoftheheart.com/ceramonies/traditional-christian-wedding-ceremony/

I am curious about the "forsaking all others" and vows of loyalty - is there anything in the LDS marriage vow against adultery?  anything about loyalty?  

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The "new and everlasting covenant" is a covenant of polygamy - Abraham is even mentioned in the marriage covenants....(law of Sarah)  the LDS marriage covenant is not one of loyalty and fidelity, it is one involving polygamy   

1886 Revelation

Given to President John Taylor September 27, 1886

My son John, you have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant how far it is binding upon my people.

Thus saith the Lord: All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority, and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant, for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.

Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandments, and yet have I borne with them these many years; and this because of their weakness—because of the perilous times, and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not, and as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph: All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham. I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof; even so, Amen

 They forgot For Better or For Worse and in sickness and in health.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

 They forgot For Better or For Worse and in sickness and in health.

For richer for poorer.

In this day fewer and fewer want to commit to anything that isn't always perfectly happy.  Not happy, get a divorce.  Too easy.

[Glenn101]

5 hours ago, changed said:

It is common sense, and yet, there is no vow of loyalty in the LDs covenants.  ... There is room for polygammy.  (I see JS and BY as being an adulterous husbands).

Truly there is "room for polygamy" when God commands it, and at no other time.Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants does allow for polygamy, when God commands it. However the New and Everlasting Covenant can be and is entered into by a man and woman who are sealed together for time and eternity by one that has been given that authority.   As for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and all others who were in polygamous relationships) our opinions about those marriages have to yield to the Lord's opinion on the matter. Thus it is imperative for us to know the Lord's will on the matter before rendering any type of judgement else we are in danger of rendering an unrighteous judgement.

4 hours ago, changed said:

??

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

So - the second wife is not someone to "cleave" to?  

no one else = not cleaving to anyone else = only one person that you cleave to... it is pretty clear...

Of course you do know that this was given long before section 132. But civil marriages require no vow of loyalty or exclusivity. A justice of the peace need and often does only ask the prospective bride and groom in the presence of witnesses if they agree to be married to each then declares them ,by the authority given to the justice, married as long as they both shall live. No decrees of loyalty or exclusivity are required. A religious ceremony may include such admonitions from the person performing the ceremony, but they are not legally required. Adultery laws are on the books in many maybe most states, but adultery is rarely prosecuted. The civil vows one makes are only as good as the person making them.

In the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, marriage vows, whether civil or temple covenant, are viewed as sacred. There may be no formal wording, but the expectations of fidelity and faithfulness are implicit and explicit in the doctrines and tenants of the church.

Glenn

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

For richer for poorer.

In this day fewer and fewer want to commit to anything that isn't always perfectly happy.  Not happy, get a divorce.  Too easy.

Wait, so my commitment to the fullness of joy in exaltation is just taking the easy way out?  

[Calm]

5 hours ago, changed said:

Yes - President Nelson is currently sealed to more than one wife - polygamy has not gone away.

Do you believe that widows and widowers should not be allowed to remarry in the LDS faith as they are in others because of our belief in eternal marriage rather than "until death do us part"?

This would seem to be the fundamental issue you have with the way marriages are currently treated in the Church.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

I have known one man active in the Church who used the idea of polygamy in the next life to justify having a sexual relationship with another woman, he told her she would be his plural wife in the next life.  He was immediately excommunicated when the affair was discovered.

The only 'disloyalty' allowed is the possibility of polygamy in the next life at this point in Church history.  Doctrinally speaking we are talking about perfect people who exist in eternity.  I don't think we can conceive of the quality of love and loyalty that can exist in that type of perfected society.

If any married man sits around and starts speculating about having multiple wives and desiring that for the purpose of having women other than the woman currently at his side, I would agree they are being disloyal just as a husband married under a vow of forsaking all others would be disloyal if he sat around thinking what life would be like if he had married _____ instead of his current wife.

I do not believe the case where a man or woman remarries and is sealed to their second spouse without vacating the first sealing (this is now allowed at times for living women as well as all dead women being sealed to all their husbands) is the same, but I can understand why some might feel that way because of our view of eternal marriage rather than death severing any need to continue to be loyal to one's spouse.

I have told my husband if I were to die, I definitely want him to remarry.  He is someone who needs companionship, I do not want to condemn him to years of unhappiness and loneliness out of misplaced loyalty to me.  I know the quality of his love at this point and time is more than enough for me and when he is perfected, that love will only be more magnificent and will in no way be diminished inmy view because he might have someone else by his side as well as me.  And my love for her will be perfect as well so why would I be jealous or feel less than because she loves him like I do?  

I believe perfected beings will be able to exist in multiple fully loving relationships with spouses just as parents, siblings, and friends in mortality can be fully loyal and loving to more than one person in that type of relationship at a time. I see so many individuals married and living with more than one spouse in their mortal lifetimes because a spouse has died and they have remarried in and outside the Church and they have expressed wonderful qualities of love in each relationship that I believe God will bless all their relationships and allow them to continue in the eternities.

 However, if I am wrong, if polygamy in the eternities does not result in as equally perfect, loving eternal marriages, then God will ensure that everyone will have the opportunity for a monogamous one.  I trust God on this.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Calm

[CV75]

10 hours ago, changed said:

I am curious about the "forsaking all others" and vows of loyalty - is there anything in the LDS marriage vow against adultery?  anything about loyalty?  

Yes, this covenant is made as part of the endowment well before the sealing ordinance.

[changed]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you believe that widows and widowers should not be allowed to remarry in the LDS faith as they are in others because of our belief in eternal marriage rather than "until death do us part"?

This would seem to be the fundamental issue you have with the way marriages are currently treated in the Church.

 

Do you believe it is fair that men marry more than one wife, while women are not allowed to eternally marry more than one husband?

 

[changed]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I have told my husband if I were to die, I definitely want him to remarry.  

 

Women live longer than men on average... did your husband tell you the same thing?  Encourage you to get sealed in the temple - for all eternity - to another spouse after he dies?  

[changed]

12 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm a little confused here... your husband has covenant with GOD to only have sexual relations with his wife (which is you).  I'm sure if you ask him, he'll even remind you of that and (re)promise you today, and give you yet another kiss.  He's also promised and made a legal commitment.  He's 100% yours.

And yet.... you doubt him and are not happy?  You want him to promise to more than you + civil authority + God Himself?  

 

He is not 100% mine - I have had to deal with adultery...  and also had to deal with abuse from another high priest... 

not too impressed with "priests" in the Mormon church... 

[changed]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Trolling? Changed has been here long enough to know she's not a drive by. Maybe you think I troll though and I'm here constantly for years.

Thanks Tacenda... yes, anyone who is curious can go back and read my first thousand or so posts - back when I was a temple-going TBM... all my temple-going, scripture reading, calling/volunteer work / doing all the right things, and this was repaid with ??? what blessings again???   abused children?? unfaithful "high priest" husband???   I guess no one really understands polygamy - understands what those marriage covenants really are -  until they have personally experienced "sharing" their spouse...  betrayal when you are supposed to be blessed?  I am supposed to want to be eternally trapped in some polygamous marriage??? Nothing but betrayal going on over here.

[Calm]

If the doctrine of eternal marriage contributed to infidelity (as opposed to being used as an excuse much like "my spouse doesn't love me" might be used) I would expect to see the rates of adultery and therefore divorce to be higher for Saints than the general population.  Divorce isn't and as far as I can tell adultery isn't either, though it is not unknown or  even uncommon unfortunately.

Marriages that started out as adulterous relationships have to jump through major hoops to be sealed from what I have read and heard (think they have to be married ten years before even applying) and a spouse would need to be divorced prior to even thinking of that happening, so there would be no expectation of someone being forced into a polygamous marriage with a  second wife from an adulterous relationship since since the marriage covenant of the first marriage was broken by the divorce officially and probably by the adultery spiritually though that last is up to God to judge if the  couple desires to stay together.

Plus a loving God would never force anyone to do anything, so I am not seeing the logic of being eternally trapped.  Even if someone decides to stay married in mortality for the children or other reasons, if they do not desire to be married eternally to their sealed spouse, why would God think of forcing them?  I know a few women who did not wish to be eternally married to their spouses at the time they told me, none of them expected to be forced to do so. They believed God was watching out for them and would ensure they were happy in the next life and that they would receive all the blessings they wanted.

I know there are some sick men out there who think if a sealing isn't canceled, they somehow have power over their exwives, that their exwives belong to them (my exbrother-in-law was one of them according to my sister),but that kind of attitude towards others (people as property to be controlled)  has them heading for the telestial even if the Church isn't aware of their behaviour and they look 'good' on paper, so to speak.  There are probably some women who think that way about ex husbands as well, that as long as they don't ask for their sealing to be canceled, their exhusbands will be forced to be married to them in the eternities.  How can heaven be heaven if individuals don't care what their spouses want, how can they be one with each other and one with God?  That would be hell and therefore exaltation isn't awaiting anyone who thinks that way.

Using emotional blackmail such as telling one's spouse they have to forgive one because one has repented and the sin will be on the unforgiving spouse instead is not true repentance, Imo.  One can also forgive, but not desire to reinstate the eternal marriage covenant that the other has broken, imo, just as one is not forced to marry someone just because they say they want to marry.  I know of no doctrine that requires this.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Calm

[changed]

Divorce rates...

https://www.thoughtco.com/divorce-rates-for-atheists-248494

 

21% of atheists have been divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have been divorced
24% of Mormons have been divorced
25% of mainstream Protestants have been divorced
29% of Baptists have been divorced
24% of nondenominational, independent Protestants have been divorced

Looks like atheists have the lowest divorce rates....

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, changed said:

Do you believe it is fair that men marry more than one wife, while women are not allowed to eternally marry more than one husband?

Some Mormon women complain about that very thing, even though it currently involves widows and widowers.