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Youtube Apologetics -- Faith vs Works


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This is one of my classics.  Note where I say,
"You are adding words to the Bible.  I quote the Bible, you quote yourself."

 

>> the bible says it is but works is the way to salvation.
You are adding words to the Bible.

I quote the Bible, you quote yourself.

I will let the Bible answer your question

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized (a work) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Jas.2 [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What does Peter say about Paul;s writings ==>> 2 Peter 3 [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The mouth will not save us ==>> Luke 6 [46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and DO not the things which I say? Matt 7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Bible says i, I believe it.

Edited by cdowis
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On 11/10/2018 at 11:41 AM, cdowis said:

This is one of my classics.  Note where I say,
"You are adding words to the Bible.  I quote the Bible, you quote yourself."

 

>> the bible says it is but works is the way to salvation.
You are adding words to the Bible.

I quote the Bible, you quote yourself.

I will let the Bible answer your question

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized (a work) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Jas.2 [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What does Peter say about Paul;s writings ==>> 2 Peter 3 [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The mouth will not save us ==>> Luke 6 [46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and DO not the things which I say? Matt 7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Bible says i, I believe it.

"Gimme that old time religion," 

 

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By their works ye shall know them...

How many people form the Mormon church have won the Nobel Peace Prize?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates

Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther → amazing people who have done amazing "works".  

Who are the healthiest people in the world, who live the longest?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy  Shinto → best health practices....

Who has the best work ethic, the highest incomes? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/  - looks like the Jewish and Hindu religions have something figured out based on their works... by their fruits...

 

 

 

Edited by changed
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1 hour ago, changed said:

By their works ye shall know them...

How many people form the Mormon church have won the Nobel Peace Prize?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates

Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther → amazing people who have done amazing "works".  

Who are the healthiest people in the world, who live the longest?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy  Shinto → best health practices....

Who has the best work ethic, the highest incomes? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/  - looks like the Jewish and Hindu religions have something figured out based on their works... by their fruits...

Excellent points all.  We should all strive to do the best we can with what we've got.  See LDS Article of Faith #13.

An honest man would carefully list here also any positive qualities which LDS people exhibit.  Did you search for any of those?

LDS scientist Paul Boyer - received a Nobel Prize for describing the mechanism of ATP synthesis.

William DeVries -- implanted the first artificial heart (the polyurethane Jarvik-7) in fellow Mormon Barney Clark

Philo Farnsworth - inventor of television.
Marvin Harris - inventor of the transistor radio.
Alan Ashton - co-inventor of modern word processing software WordPerfect (Provo, Utah).
Nolan Bushnell - Father of Video Games; inventor of "Pong".
Harvey Fletcher - inventor of the hearing aid, stereophonic sound, the audiometer, and more than 20 other inventions.
William Clayton & Appleton Harmon  - inventors of the odometer.
Jonathan Browning - revolutionary gunsmith; inventor of the repeating rifle.
John Moses Browning - greatest gunsmith in history; inventor of the automatic shotgun and many infantry small arms and machine guns.
Lester Wire - inventor of the electric traffic light.
Alvino Rey - inventor of the electric guitar.
Robert B. Ingebretsen (and Thomas Stockham)  - fathers of digital sound recording (CDs, DVDs).

Latter-day Saint religion & culture

The late Kenneth Rexroth said that Joseph Smith is the epitome and embodiment of the American Renaissance, i.e., Joseph took the apex of the renaissance in America as described by Emerson scholars and developed on it, beginning in the 1830s.  Rexroth did a major study of Communalism: From Its Origins to the Twentieth Century (N.Y.: Seabury, 1974).  He saw Mormonism as a partially communitarian religion which had produced its own culture – a very significant culture.  Mormonism, according to Rexroth, had made practical the communal movements of the 1840s, i.e., a low-pressure, small-scale utopian socialist movement which actually worked!! 

The 1844 non-Mormon visitor to Nauvoo, Josiah Quincy, later said:

Quote

 It is by no means improbable that some future text-book, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful influence upon the destinies of his countrymen?  And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet.  And the reply, absurd as it doubtless seems to most men now living, may be an obvious commonplace to their descendants.  History deals in surprises and paradoxes quite as startling as this.  The man who established a religion in this age of free debate, who was and is to day accepted by hundreds of thousands as a direct emissary from the Most High – such a rare human being is not to be disposed of by pelting his memory with unsavory epithets.  Fanatic, impostor, charlatan he may have been; but these hard names furnish no solution to the problem he presents to us.  Fanatics and impostors are living and dying every day, and their memory is buried with them; but the wonderful influence which this founder of a religion exerted and still exerts throws him into relief before us, not as a rogue to be criminated, but as a phenomenon to be explained.  Quincy, Figures of the Past (1882/1883/1926), 376; B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church, II:349-350.  Only forty-three days after Quincy’s May 1844 visit to Nauvoo, Joseph was dead.

The Pew Research Center has found that

Quote

    a significant majority — 77 percent — of those who identify themselves as members of the LDS Church “believe wholeheartedly in all the teachings of the church.” That number is higher among respondents who have attended college (81 percent), and even higher (85 percent) among those who are college graduates.
    
    Some Latter-day Saints, however — 22 percent in the survey — find that “some teachings of the LDS Church are hard for me to believe.” That number declines as individual educational level increases. Only 14 percent of LDS college graduates in the survey expressed such doubts.  “Mormons in America: Certain in their Beliefs, Uncertain of their Place in Society,” The Pew Forum on Religion in Public Life (Jan 12, 2012), online at http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/ Religious_Affiliation/Christian/Mormon/Mormons%20in%20America.pdf , as reported by Joseph Walker, “Mormons navigate faith and doubt in the digital age,”  Deseret News, July 28, 2013, online at http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865583665/Simple-faith-in-a-digital-age.html .

Very much like the Jewish, Asian, and Greek communities in the United States, the Mormon community has put a very high premium on higher education and professional achievement.  So much so that not only is there a very high per capita level of higher education among ethnic Mormons, but higher education is not considered a threat within ordinary Mormon Church functions nor in hallowed temple halls.  Moreover, sociologists have commented on the surprisingly positive comfort level of Mormon intellectuals in their Church.  Among LDS, higher levels of education are strongly correlated with higher church attendance, and higher levels of devotion.

Quote

. . . successful newcomers to America like Cuban exiles and Asian Indians are not the only ones to share such [successful] traits. Jewish and Mormon households have long earned three to four times the median income. In all such groups, this triple cultural package instils drive, the capacity to endure, to take a hit and to start all over again. They are also often outsiders.  “Sweet smell of success,” The Economist, April 12, 2014, online at http://www.economist.com/news/business-books-quarterly/21600652-do-you-have-what-it-takes-sweet-smell-success

The New York Times published a graph that outlines the amount of giving of major religions in America.  Mormon Church’s members give nearly twice as much as the denomination in the number two spot. Here’s the breakdown of the average percentage of giving per member of each denomination:

Mormon: 5.6%
Assemblies of God: 2.9%
Nondenominational Evangelical: 2.6%
Baptist: 2%
Lutheran: 1.5%
Jewish: 1.4%
Eastern Orthodox: 1.3%
Methodist: 1.2 %
Episcopalian: 1.2%
Presbyterian: 1.2%
Catholic: .7%
Muslim: .6%
Buddhist: .6%

New York Times, Jan 29, 2012, online at http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/01/29/sunday-review/29giving-gfx.html?ref=sunday-review .

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On 11/10/2018 at 10:41 AM, cdowis said:

This is one of my classics.  Note where I say,
"You are adding words to the Bible.  I quote the Bible, you quote yourself."

 

>> the bible says it is but works is the way to salvation.
You are adding words to the Bible.

I quote the Bible, you quote yourself.

I will let the Bible answer your question

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized (a work) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Jas.2 [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What does Peter say about Paul;s writings ==>> 2 Peter 3 [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The mouth will not save us ==>> Luke 6 [46] And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and DO not the things which I say? Matt 7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The Bible says i, I believe it.

Baptism is not a work.

Baptism is the perfect example of faith and grace.

Here is my view of baptism and how it is necessary, baptism is not a work of righteousness on our part. It is our debt by faith which puts us into the grace of Jesus. It is the response of a good conscience, but without the grace of God it is useless. So Baptism is the perfect vehicle to teach true faith in Jesus Christ. First, I don't baptize myself; someone else does. Just like I don't save myself; Jesus does. Jesus does for us what we can't do for ourselves.

 

Second, true faith is complete trust. As I am being lowered into the water I am relying wholeheartedly on the guy doing the deed. If I reach out and try and catch myself then I don't have true faith.

 

Third, Jesus said we must be born again, water spirit blood

 

Greatest teaching of applied grace

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On 11/10/2018 at 10:41 AM, cdowis said:

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized (a work) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Sounds like both faith and works are important.  

1 hour ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Here is my view of baptism and how it is necessary, baptism is not a work of righteousness on our part. It is our debt by faith which puts us into the grace of Jesus. It is the response of a good conscience, but without the grace of God it is useless. So Baptism is the perfect vehicle to teach true faith in Jesus Christ. First, I don't baptize myself; someone else does. Just like I don't save myself; Jesus does. Jesus does for us what we can't do for ourselves.

Sounds like semantics to me.  Members of the Church are regularly criticized for preaching the importance of both faith and works.  The scriptures are literally full of this doctrine.  Yet the critics prefer to ignore any mention of works.

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Jas.2 [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

How can the "justified by faith alone" crowd ignore James 2:21-26, which clearly states that faith is justified by works, and gives examples of Abraham and Rahab.  The Bible is packed full of stories about people who acted (works,) believing God expected certain works out of them.  I gladly do good works all the time, not because the works save me, but God expects it.  A change of behavior, after all, turning from dead works is what Repentance means.  And that change of behavior is what brings about much of our joy.  Anyone, in my opinion, who does not stand up for good works in conjunction with faith in God is putting their opinion above God's Word. 

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
            22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
            23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
            24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
            25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
            26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Edited by Meerkat
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On 11/10/2018 at 10:41 AM, cdowis said:

2 Peter 3 [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

This is why Paul's writings must be viewed in context of all other scriptures.  

22 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Romans 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The Gospel is not entirely contained in this one verse.  

Ephesians 2:8 and 9 is a common anti-works reference:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe and proclaim this too.  Yet we are roundly criticized for salvation by works.  

The importance of good works must be acknowledged and emphasized.  What was the Apostle Paul's purpose telling us we should walk in good works in the very next verse (Ephesians 2:10?) Why is this verse routinely ignored by the grace alone people when discussing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?:

"10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul did not find the mention of good works objectionable.  Neither do members of the Church.  If we are to follow Jesus Christ, especially when we know we have experienced His Grace, "we should walk in [good works.]

A person can submit many scriptures about salvation and the Grace of God.  But ignoring the multitude of scriptures that encourage good works does no service to Christianity.  

The Apostle Paul, in Galations 6:7 clearly states the vital importance of good works when he said:

"7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

That is why members of the Church encourage good works.  Jesus said in John 14:15 "¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments."  Keeping His commandments = work.  

Much as I love the Apostle Paul, the teachings of Jesus Christ give more direct and clear guidance regarding how we should live.

Edited by Meerkat
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  My personal order is True Grace, by way of True Faith = True Salvation. True Grace [ charis ] which is a covenant word action and has approx 50 definitional word definitional meanings in the ancient world of the O.T and N.T [of which the most important scriptural meaning is - favor ] which is accepted, accessed, activated,  grabbed hold of, obtained, received, held on to, by True Faith [pistis ] which is a covenant word action and has approx 25 definitional meanings in the ancient world of the O.T and N.T of which the top 12 are - allegiance, commitment, confidence, conviction, dedication, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust. True Grace empowered Love Belief/Faith/ Covenant of Obedience by way of and in the New Covenant and by way of True obedience to God The Father The Monarch Of The Universe in the name of Christ Jesus The Vice Monarch, Lord Of Life, Lord. Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master of The Universe, by way of The Holy Ghost/Spirit the Awesome Testator/ Sanctifier of The Universe.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

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On November 12, 2018 at 5:49 AM, Doctrine 612 said:

Baptism is not a work.

Baptism is the perfect example of faith and grace.

Here is my view of baptism and how it is necessary, baptism is not a work of righteousness on our part. It is our debt by faith which puts us into the grace of Jesus. It is the response of a good conscience, but without the grace of God it is useless. So Baptism is the perfect vehicle to teach true faith in Jesus Christ. First, I don't baptize myself; someone else does. Just like I don't save myself; Jesus does. Jesus does for us what we can't do for ourselves.

 

Second, true faith is complete trust. As I am being lowered into the water I am relying wholeheartedly on the guy doing the deed. If I reach out and try and catch myself then I don't have true faith.

 

Third, Jesus said we must be born again, water spirit blood

 

Greatest teaching of applied grace

    http://www.BeBaptized.org 

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2 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

It comes to order.

faith , grace, salvation, works.

some like to say faith grace works salvation.

 

what order do you put it in?

My opinion is that order doesn't make any difference, as long as it results in us doing God's will because we love Him, and we love His commandments.

The order that Jesus described in John 7:16-17 was works, faith, salvation: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.  If any man will do his will (works,) he shall know of the doctrine, (faith,) whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Jesus presented another option in John 14:11-12 annd 15:  "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, (faith,) the works that I do (works,) shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

I don't think the order matters, because it can happen differently, depending on the person.  For me, the order was works, faith, salvation.  For my wife it was faith, salvation, works.  Yet here we both are, praising the Lord for His love, grace and mercy for us unworthy sinners.  Our burdens have been lifted by His blood shed for us.  We know His Atonement was real because our sorrow has been replaced with joy.  Therefore, we know the Resurrection is real.  We shall live forever in glorified, perfected bodies.

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6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

My opinion is that order doesn't make any difference, as long as it results in us doing God's will because we love Him, and we love His commandments.

The order that Jesus described in John 7:16-17 was works, faith, salvation: "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.  If any man will do his will (works,) he shall know of the doctrine, (faith,) whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

Jesus presented another option in John 14:11-12 annd 15:  "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, (faith,) the works that I do (works,) shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

I don't think the order matters, because it can happen differently, depending on the person.  For me, the order was works, faith, salvation.  For my wife it was faith, salvation, works.  Yet here we both are, praising the Lord for His love, grace and mercy for us unworthy sinners.  Our burdens have been lifted by His blood shed for us.  We know His Atonement was real because our sorrow has been replaced with joy.  Therefore, we know the Resurrection is real.  We shall live forever in glorified, perfected bodies.

I used to think the same way, until I realized it did matter.

it matters why we do the works.

Do I do them to get something, or because I Am grateful.

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On 11/11/2018 at 10:22 PM, changed said:

By their works ye shall know them...

How many people form the Mormon church have won the Nobel Peace Prize?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates

Not sure the Nobel Peace Prize is the gold standard for determining the worth of individuals or their contributions to the world.

Not sure of that at all.

On 11/11/2018 at 10:22 PM, changed said:

Mother Theresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther → amazing people who have done amazing "works".  

Yes.  But they also have their faults.  Mother Theresa's legacy is decidedly mixed (see, e.g., here, here and here).  Same with Ghandi (here, here, here and here) and Luther (here, here, here and here).

In other words, they were human.  They had their flaws as well as their virtues.  Like the rest of us.  And yes, "the rest of us" should include the Latter-day Saints.

On 11/11/2018 at 10:22 PM, changed said:

Who are the healthiest people in the world, who live the longest?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy  Shinto → best health practices....

Hmm.  That list appears to be heavily stratified, with wealthy nations at the top, and poorer nations at the bottom.

On 11/11/2018 at 10:22 PM, changed said:

Who has the best work ethic, the highest incomes? http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/  - looks like the Jewish and Hindu religions have something figured out based on their works... by their fruits...

Not sure that money is an accurate indicator of personal worth and merit.

Not sure of that at all.

Thanks,

-Smac

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9 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

It comes to order.

faith , grace, salvation, works.

some like to say faith grace works salvation.

 

what order do you put it in?

To me, it seems that faith and works are things we do, while grace and salvation are things the Lord does.

Thanks,

-Smac

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5 hours ago, smac97 said:

To me, it seems that faith and works are things we do, while grace and salvation are things the Lord does.

Thanks,

-Smac

Faith is a gift,

repentance is a gift

baptism is a gift 

And we know that the Holy Ghost is a gift.

Salvation is a gift 

gift equals grace.

after you receive your gift do you put it in a box or do you use it?

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5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Faith is a gift,

But faith is also something we do.  It starts out as a "seed" (a "gift"), but we still need to nourish it, give it room to grow, etc.

5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

repentance is a gift

I think the opportunity to repent is a gift.  The act of repentance, though, is something we choose to do.

5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

baptism is a gift 

Yes.  It's an ordinance we choose to accept.

5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

And we know that the Holy Ghost is a gift.

Again, something we choose to accept.  

5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Salvation is a gift 

Yes.

5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

gift equals grace.

Not sure what you mean here.

From the EOM:

Quote

One of the most controversial issues in Christian theology is whether salvation is the free gift of unmerited grace or is earned through good works. Paul's statement that "a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28) is frequently cited to support the former view, while James's statement that "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) is often quoted in favor of the latter view. The LDS doctrine that salvation requires both grace and works is a revealed yet commonsense reconciliation of these contradictory positions.

C. S. Lewis wrote that this dispute "does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary" (p. 129). And in one way or another almost all Christian denominations ultimately accept the need for both grace and works, but the differences in meaning and emphasis among the various doctrinal traditions remain substantial.

The whole thing is worth a read.

5 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

after you receive your gift do you put it in a box or do you use it?

Hopefully I use it.  To exercise faith.  To repent.  To love and serve others.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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15 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

I used to think the same way, until I realized it did matter.

it matters why we do the works.

Do I do them to get something, or because I Am grateful.

I can see the order of things matters to you.  I'm not convinced it matters to God what process brings us to Him, based on your comments.  I'm probably a little paranoid, but the structure of your statement seemed to imply a question about my motives for good works.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear when I said "For me, the order was works, faith, salvation.  For my wife it was faith, salvation, works.  Yet here we both are, praising the Lord for His love, grace and mercy for us unworthy sinners." I intended to communicate we are not worthy of any reward, but are grateful.  That would be common with most members of the Church of Jesus Christ, I believe.  

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13 hours ago, Rivers said:

Are we trying to earn heaven or become heavenly?  

I like your perspective.  There is nothing condescending or judgmental in the question. Honestly, I am probably trying to earn heaven by trying to become heavenly.   There is effort.  By consciously trying to do the will of God (working at it,) I sin less.   As I learn it's not enough to not kill, I can't even think about it, or be angry with my brother.  With practice, godly behavior becomes easier and easier.  There is no shame in adding faith to our effort, or work to our faith if the goal is to become heavenly.  That's what I call win/win.  If I am pointed toward heaven and doing what I can, the Grace of Christ carries me there from whichever milepost to which I have progressed (with God's help.)  Do I consider my works as filthy rags compared to the Savior's perfection? Of course.  Through Christ, I can improve and become perfected and worthy to live in God's kingdom.  That's how I see it.

Edited by Meerkat
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