Wrapped together as a scroll?

[Bernard Gui]

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Mormon 9:1 And now, I speak also concerning those who do not believe in Christ.
2 Behold, will ye believe in the day of your visitation--behold, when the Lord shall come, yea, even that great day when the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, yea, in that great day when ye shall be brought to stand before the Lamb of God--then will ye say that there is no God?

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 3 Nephi 26:3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory--yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

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Mormon 5:23 Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll?

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1 Q. What is the sea of glass spoken of by John, 4th chapter, and 6th verse of the Revelation?A. It is the earth, in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Three times Mormon says, “the earth will be rolled together as a scroll.” Apparently this is a prophecy the Savior gave to the Nephites before he left them. It refers to events at the end times just before the resurrection and final judgment. I believe Mormon is the only prophet to describe this event...the earth being rolled together by command of the Father..

What do you think “rolled together as a scroll” means? Do you think it is literal or metaphorical?

 

 

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Three times Mormon says, “the earth will be rolled together as a scroll.” Apparently this is a prophecy the Savior gave to the Nephites before he left them. It refers to events at the end times just before the resurrection and final judgment. I believe Mormon is the only prophet to describe this event...the earth being rolled together by command of the Father..

What do you think “rolled together as a scroll” means? Do you think it is literal or metaphorical?

 

 

Here's an older thread on here discussing it and giving some thoughts, insights and other references regarding this:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43905-the-earth-shall-be-rolled-together-as-a-scroll/

 

[bluebell]

This is a complete guess, but if we are talking metaphorical, it could be a metaphor for how events of the earth are 'finished', like how you roll a scroll up when you are done with it.

[smac97]

Discussed previously here.

See also D&C 77:

Here is an exegesis of Mormon 5:23.

And here's another (which I like and find helpful).

And here is an excerpt from Celestial Symbols: Symbolism in Doctrine, Religious Traditions and Temple.

Here is a brief exegesis of 3 Nephi 26:3 (part of the Book of Mormon Critical Text Project).

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

You can’t wrap up a globe like a scroll. The flat earthers were right all along.

[Bernard Gui]

 

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You can’t wrap up a globe like a scroll. The flat earthers were right all along.

Perhaps we should take heed. Metaphorical for you?

Edited November 6, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Discussed previously here.

See also D&C 77:

Here is an exegesis of Mormon 5:23.

And here's another (which I like and find helpful).

And here is an excerpt from Celestial Symbols: Symbolism in Doctrine, Religious Traditions and Temple.

Here is a brief exegesis of 3 Nephi 26:3 (part of the Book of Mormon Critical Text Project).

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks. Metaphorical, then?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

This is a complete guess, but if we are talking metaphorical, it could be a metaphor for how events of the earth are 'finished', like how you roll a scroll up when you are done with it.

Put you down for metaphorical?

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, ALarson said:

Here's an older thread on here discussing it and giving some thoughts, insights and other references regarding this:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43905-the-earth-shall-be-rolled-together-as-a-scroll/

 

Thanks. I wonder if the Nephites thought my the earth was flat. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Put you down for metaphorical?

I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other but I’d probably pick metaphorical if I had to. I just don’t see a good argument for literally rolling a sphere shaped object into a scroll.  

I can’t picture rolling a basketball into a scroll for example. It doesn’t seem like it’s possible without breaking it. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. I wonder if the Nephite thought my the earth was flat. 

They seemed to be pretty astronomically advanced for their time.  

Helaman 12 suggests that they conceived of a global earth -

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for surely it is the earth that moveth and not the sun.

Flat earther's see the earth as stationary with the sun either circling the earth or whirling around above us in ways that we mistake for sunsets and orbits.

[pogi]

I vote metaphorical.  I'm not really into the idea of a doughy earth being flattened by a giant celestial rolling pin and being rolled up to bake like a cinnamon roll. I think it lends a poetic image to the end of the scroll/book of life.  When a scroll is finished, it is all rolled up.  It is like saying, at the end of life, the earth will be closed like a finished book.  The end.

[Maidservant]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What do you think “rolled together as a scroll” means? Do you think it is literal or metaphorical?

Maybe both.  I was going to ditto the "rolling up a scroll" when done reading it, or some Jewish literary or symbolic device.

However, I do think that the earth mechanically, "physically" is misleading--i.e. it's not really solid, it's just a really good program/image.

I also like this verse for a hint at it's nature:  D & C 101: 23 "And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together."

[Bernard Gui]

47 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Maybe both.  I was going to ditto the "rolling up a scroll" when done reading it, or some Jewish literary or symbolic device.

However, I do think that the earth mechanically, "physically" is misleading--i.e. it's not really solid, it's just a really good program/image.

I also like this verse for a hint at it's nature:  D & C 101: 23 "And prepare for the revelation which is to come, when the veil of the covering of my temple, in my tabernacle, which hideth the earth, shall be taken off, and all flesh shall see me together."

Thanks. Interesting observations. Lifting the veil that covers the earth is an intriguing concept.

In light of the sea of glass revelation, do you think  the melting of the elements literal or metaphorical?

Edited November 7, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I vote metaphorical.  I'm not really into the idea of a doughy earth being flattened by a giant celestial rolling pin and being rolled up to bake like a cinnamon roll. I think it lends a poetic image to the end of the scroll/book of life.  When a scroll is finished, it is all rolled up.  It is like saying, at the end of life, the earth will be closed like a finished book.  The end.

Metaphorical for you. 

Melted elements could be rolled up like dough.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

They seemed to be pretty astronomically advanced for their time.  

Helaman 12 suggests that they conceived of a global earth -

Flat earther's see the earth as stationary with the sun either circling the earth or whirling around above us in ways that we mistake for sunsets and orbits.

I was thinking of that scripture, too. I’m curious why that was thrown in. The only BoM reference to “four corners” is an Isaiah which is also the only OT reference to them. 

Did OT Jews believe the earth was flat?. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other but I’d probably pick metaphorical if I had to. I just don’t see a good argument for literally rolling a sphere shaped object into a scroll.  

I can’t picture rolling a basketball into a scroll for example. It doesn’t seem like it’s possible without breaking it. 

Even if the elements have been melted?

[Calm]

A liquid can't be rolled up last I checked.  

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Even if the elements have been melted?

It seems like it would be even harder to roll up something that is melted. 

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks. Interesting observations. Lifting the veil that covers the earth is an intriguing concept.

In light of the sea of glass revelation, do you think  the melting of the elements literal or metaphorical?

Hmmm, that particular one I haven't pre-thought about.  Without knowing exactly what that process is, I'm open to some sort of actual process that it points to.  Sounds painful though!

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Three times Mormon says, “the earth will be rolled together as a scroll.” Apparently this is a prophecy the Savior gave to the Nephites before he left them. It refers to events at the end times just before the resurrection and final judgment. I believe Mormon is the only prophet to describe this event...the earth being rolled together by command of the Father..

What do you think “rolled together as a scroll” means? Do you think it is literal or metaphorical?

Def metaphorical. It even says "as a scroll," which is a sign of scriptural metaphorics. I think Bluebell got closest to my thinking. The scroll is like the word. When the word is rolled up, it is the finishing of the word.  The word has come to its end, and its words concerning the earth are done - or perhaps the words concerning a particular generation are finished and rolled up.

Mormon 9:2 together with D&C teaches precisely what I have said that those resurrected from hell, will have one more chance to accept Christ when they stand before Him, but that they having refused to accept him in life nor the spirit world cannot receive the celestial kingdom. Grace does not extend that far, but only to their salvation in a lower kingdom. Grace saves but it doesn't reward.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was thinking of that scripture, too. I’m curious why that was thrown in. The only BoM reference to “four corners” is an Isaiah which is also the only OT reference to them. 

Did OT Jews believe the earth was flat?. 

It is generally believed the Jewish people accepted the round earth in about the 4th century BCE from the Greeks. The origin in the Greek world is not well established. The Greeks ascribed their discovery of the spherical earth to Pythagoras but that is uncertain. In any case that is too late for the Nephites to have gotten the knowledge from him (though it is possible the Greeks were off and it was discovered earlier).

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is generally believed the Jewish people accepted the round earth in about the 4th century BCE from the Greeks. The origin in the Greek world is not well established. The Greeks ascribed their discovery of the spherical earth to Pythagoras but that is uncertain. In any case that is too late for the Nephites to have gotten the knowledge from him (though it is possible the Greeks were off and it was discovered earlier).

Where do you think the Nephites got the knowledge that the earth revolves around the sun?

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

A liquid can't be rolled up last I checked.  

Ever do a taffy pull?

[Calm]

I don't think taffy qualifies as a liquid, but been too long since chemistryto remember what category it is in.

But it may be an amorphous solid.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-fiction-glass-liquid/

http://www2.cnrs.fr/en/1231.html

Edited November 7, 2018 by Calm