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"Believe, Behave, Belong" -- What is the proper sequence?


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3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:
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I agree.  But you also have said: "I think excommunication is not of god."  That's the part I do not understand.

I don’t believe that because something is written in scripture that it is pure revelation from god. There can be errors in scripture, I think.

Yes, that's possible.  But the scriptures pertaining to excommunication are extensive.  Kinda hard to chalk all of them up as errors.

Thanks,

-Smac

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31 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes, that's possible.  But the scriptures pertaining to excommunication are extensive.  Kinda hard to chalk all of them up as errors.

Thanks,

-Smac

See - this is the problem with my position. Rationality is not on my side. I’m sticking with what I want to believe, and perhaps not with what I should believe given the prophetic messages.

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On 11/2/2018 at 8:48 AM, smac97 said:

 the Church might want to try the "Belong --> Belief --> Behave"

I would like to see more of this, and I do think we are getting better at it over time--both institutionally and personally.  One of my favorite personal experiences was sitting at a table where everyone loved each other and were friends--we were sharing supper.  We had been through some stuff together.  There were atheists, God-believers; men, women; fat, skinny; married, single, gay; so on and so forth.  But we all were welcomed at the table.  I'm not sure what "the table" would represent in terms of what the Church is and does; of what Christ is and does--except perhaps the work of Christ, entire.  I'm still thinking through it.

On the other hand--someone has to set up the table and invite someone.  If you don't have at least some people who covenant to follow Christ--not necessarily in just this Church or even by the name of Christ, but at least by his way of living--if you don't have some people who covenant to be pure (i.e. no longer harming themselves and others) and who have the desire and capacity to make room/community for all the others who are struggling and/or simply being who they are--if there aren't at least some yeast to leaven, some salt to savor.   So maybe not everyone has to have covenant and Priesthood and Christ-ness . . . but some do.  To bear up everyone else.

I would say that the Church is the school for those who wish to bear others up  . . . regardless of who the others are.  Not everyone has to go to that school.  But some do!

 

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, Behave (start on the commitments that are most difficult [the easiest, because then we have to move on to the heavies such as radical forgiveness and consecration, ha ha ha], such as regular Church attendance, Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, Law of Tithing)

 

 

On 11/2/2018 at 2:35 PM, SouthernMo said:

Would you treat your children this way?

If they severely misbehave, would you kick them out of your family for a while (until they repent, and wait a necessary year)?

Excommunication is NOT getting kicked out of the family.  You cannot get kicked out of being a Son of God.  You still are.  Can't be undone.  Apples and oranges.  Whatever condition you are in right now, God/your Heavenly Father is immediately before you.  He never left.  He is foreward, rearward, and side to side.  You can open your eyes to it.  He is right now leading you to your best outcome, and will never stop doing that.  It may or may not include the Church; or will include the Church as soon as that is the best outcome.  What about the Church is valuable to you, that might cause you to prepare as you are able, for full participation?  But even if that never happens, or if it is never valuable to you, you are still not kicked out of the Family and never could be.  This is only about your level of being/becoming (and happiness).

On 11/2/2018 at 3:59 PM, SouthernMo said:

You say (and back with some scripture) that excommunication is needed at some times.

I ask you - would you excommunicate your children from your family of they misbehave in a way that would get them excommunicated from the church.  What is that standard of misbehavior?  You decide. The important thing is to keep it constant between the two.

Excommunication is spiritual capital punishment. It supposedly “unseals” one from his/her family.  In practice, it also carries a stigma that creates separation and awkwardness.  It pulls god’s children apart on earth more than it brings us together.

I know what you’re saying about how your ways aren’t god’s ways. There is truth in that at times. But, I won’t worship a god who loves me less than my earthly parents do. If my earthly parents will always accept me, and my Heavenly Father won’t, then I’m not going to give him my love or respect.

I think excommunication is not of god. It’s a man-made tool designed to use fear and exclusion to prod the behavior wanted.

I’m really curious about your answer. If you think Excommunication is a good thing at times, are there circumstances in which you would excommunicate your kids from your family?  Your wife?  Grandkids?

I personally would never stop thinking and acting of being a mother to one of my children, and do what I could for them--as much as they might let me, in the case of adult children, which I know from experience is very little I am permitted, and even in the case of myself when I never wanted any advice or help from my parents, never; however, I can imagine all kinds of scenarios where I would remove a child from the house proper, particularly if the safety of the other children (particularly youngers) were in question or danger; I think a case may be made that this is exactly what is happening in excommunication, is the safety of others in the community.  As well, I recently told my adult daughter (21) that she needed to get herself prepared and leave the house; her only crime was failure to launch, ha ha.  That may or may not be equivalent to excommunication, I don't know, but I do know that in both cases (my insistence for my daughter; and excommunication), the objective of the parent in each case is the continued progression of their child.

I think people in general deeply misunderstand forgiveness--what it is, what it does.  I personally understand that your Heavenly Father has already forgiven you--before you were ever born.  This isn't about him--this is about you--about your preparation, your becoming, your blessings and the laws (seeds) upon which they are predicated.  He is bringing YOU to a state of forgiveness--where you are free from all the burdens of body and spirit that aren't really you and that we are each now under (for learning purposes).

Edited by Maidservant
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On 11/2/2018 at 9:54 AM, rockpond said:

I think any of the three could come first in an individual's spiritual journey. 

I agree.  "Behave" alone will take us a long way toward where we want to go.  Behaving came first for me.  Then Christ.  Then belonging.  But I believe the behavior is the most important thing, whether soon or late.    The Savior suffered to bring about a change of behavior (repentance) in us.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I hope Smac doesn't mind my putting this here. I put Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses in  "search" and this came up. But wondered what people think about Leah Remini doing a segment on "Mormonism" on her show on A&E. She recently did a segment on Jehovah's Witnesses, and many shows on Scientology that she is a former member of. Just saw a post with her mentioning that because of a lot of outside requests she is looking into Mormonism. “Now we’re being reached out to by people who are asking us to look into the Mormons.” https://nypost.com/2018/11/28/leah-remini-church-of-scientologys-retaliation-has-been-insanity/?utm_source=reddit.com

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hope Smac doesn't mind my putting this here. I put Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses in  "search" and this came up. But wondered what people think about Leah Remini doing a segment on "Mormonism" on her show on A&E. She recently did a segment on Jehovah's Witnesses, and many shows on Scientology that she is a former member of. Just saw a post with her mentioning that because of a lot of outside requests she is looking into Mormonism. “Now we’re being reached out to by people who are asking us to look into the Mormons.” https://nypost.com/2018/11/28/leah-remini-church-of-scientologys-retaliation-has-been-insanity/?utm_source=reddit.com

I'm not familiar with the program but the article makes it sound as if her ultimate goal is to have the Church of Scientology lose its tax exempt status because it isn't helping and serving the public.  I see this as problematic as I think anyone could go after just about any tax exempt organization making the same argument from one perspective or another.  I don't really know how to address the high level concerns people have with certain organizations receiving tax exempt status.  I donate to a number of tax exempt organizations, including the Church, and wouldn't want their exempt status to change.  But, what I do think is that any organization with a tax exempt status ought to be required to publish their financial statements each year.

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