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halconero

Statement of Support for the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh

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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

On any occasion when some deraanged killer goes off, I would hope there would be one or more yahoos present. I hate the idea of being a sitting duck or having any of my loved ones in that position. 

Unless the yahoo shoots you or your loved ones. A short course to have a concealed carry permit does not realistically prepare most people for actual combat.

There are ways to do so that have been shown to have some merit. They involve looking at everyday life casually as “what would I do if” situations. Something like this:

post_office_showdown.png

Even then people freeze up or, worse, panic when things get bad. Police and military personnel get some training to overcome that but it does not always work. A panicked wannabe Rambo with a gun is worse then having no one at all.

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14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We just had a training in our stake on dealing with an active shooter in a chapel. Tons of fun.

As someone who converted from Orthodox Judaism, I can tell you that there were always people who carried at shul (synagogue). Always. And during the High Holidays (and other large gatherings, especially those open to the public) there would be visible, armed police presence outside the shul. It was necessary. I remember one Yom Kippur in particular attending services in a very large shul, thinking how incredibly easy it would be to kill an awful lot of Jews very easily. Now, if you are talking about Reform or “progressive” Judaism, they would have toed the line of political correctness and prohibited any and all weapons. 

I also used to work at a Jewish day school. We got regular visits from local police and the FBI on the latest specific threats to various locations within the  Jewish community. Including our school. A place full of children. 

The attack this weekend left me broken-hearted. And - I guess oddly - feeling guilty for having converted. 

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5 hours ago, Gray said:

I hope not. Some yahoo with a gun is more likely to accidentally shoot someone than save the day.

Please stay on topic rather than commandeer the thread for your own personal agendas and sacred cows.

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3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Please stay on topic rather than commandeer the thread for your own personal agendas and sacred cows.

Odd that you did not single out the person who started the derail.......

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15 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

As someone who converted from Orthodox Judaism, I can tell you that there were always people who carried at shul (synagogue). Always. And during the High Holidays (and other large gatherings, especially those open to the public) there would be visible, armed police presence outside the shul. It was necessary. I remember one Yom Kippur in particular attending services in a very large shul, thinking how incredibly easy it would be to kill an awful lot of Jews very easily. Now, if you are talking about Reform or “progressive” Judaism, they would have toed the line of political correctness and prohibited any and all weapons. 

I also used to work at a Jewish day school. We got regular visits from local police and the FBI on the latest specific threats to various locations within the  Jewish community. Including our school. A place full of children. 

The attack this weekend left me broken-hearted. And - I guess oddly - feeling guilty for having converted. 

It is amazing how often the Jewish people are targeted for violence. I don't think Reform Judaism temples are often targets for such things - have I just not been paying attention? It was what stood out to me on this attack. 

I can also understand that you would feel a distance from the Jewish people when under attack. However, I hope that you are able to still feel that you are clearly a member of the House of Israel and stand with them. 

I don't see attacks on places of worship slowing down; to the contrary, I foresee these types of attacks to both increase in their number and in their number of different denominations being attacked. 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

No one is required to react to testimonies except the one conducting.  People can ignore the comments by opening hymnbook s and reading the songs, for example.

In order to skip/ignore your comment as off topic, had to read it first.

Someone should stand up and cluck like chicken when deliberate abuses occur; it would throw off the congregation and the speaker.

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3 minutes ago, provoman said:

Someone should stand up and cluck like chicken when deliberate abuses occur; it would throw off the congregation and the speaker.

Brilliant.  :)

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Just now, Storm Rider said:

It is amazing how often the Jewish people are targeted for violence. I don't think Reform Judaism temples are often targets for such things - have I just not been paying attention? It was what stood out to me on this attack. 

I can also understand that you would feel a distance from the Jewish people when under attack. However, I hope that you are able to still feel that you are clearly a member of the House of Israel and stand with them. 

I don't see attacks on places of worship slowing down; to the contrary, I foresee these types of attacks to both increase in their number and in their number of different denominations being attacked. 

I don't see attachs on religious services decreasing either. In 1994 Cave of The Patriarchs Massacre - Jewish man killed Palestinians who gathered to pray. Suicide bombings in mosques is not unheard of either. There was the Church shooting in Texas. The Church shooting in SC. 

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15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What if one of the Three Nephites showed up uninvited on a Fast Sunday?  Would the constabulary be called to expel him?

We used to joke that, if Jesus showed up on BYU campus in beard, robe, and sandals, that he would immediately be arrested and placed under observation at the State Mental Hospital at the end of Center St in Provo.  He would get a very sympathetic ear for his delusion that he is Jesus.  They've met and humored guys like that before.

The big question is, given the opportunity on BYU campus now, would he indulge in the devil's syrup known as Mountain Dew?

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56 minutes ago, pogi said:

The big question is, given the opportunity on BYU campus now, would he indulge in the devil's syrup known as Mountain Dew?

It is said that when he returns there will be wine so it is going to blow the mind of some Saints.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is said that when he returns there will be wine so it is going to blow the mind of some Saints.

Yes, and that can happen for example at weekly kiddush ("sanctification") of the Sabbath with wine or grape juice -- for Jews of all ages.  

 

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18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

........................................

Edited to add: And when Jesus comes again, it will be in glory, and there will be no question who He is. 

Joseph Smith's favorite song was "A Poor 'wayfaring Man of Grief" (#29 ), the last verse of which is

Quote

"Then in a moment to my view

The stranger started from disguise.
The tokens in his hands I knew;
The Savior stood before mine eyes.
He spake, and my poor name he named,
"Of me thou hast not been ashamed.
These deeds shall thy memorial be;
Fear not, thou didst them unto me."

In fact there will be some question as to who he is when he comes in glory, and there will be some consternation at first, according to the D&C and to the Prophet Zechariah:

D&C 45:48-52,

Quote

And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount [Mount of Olives, Zech 14:4], and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.

And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.

And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.

And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? (Zech 13:6)

Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.

 

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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5 hours ago, Raingirl said:

As someone who converted from Orthodox Judaism, I can tell you that there were always people who carried at shul (synagogue). Always. And during the High Holidays (and other large gatherings, especially those open to the public) there would be visible, armed police presence outside the shul. It was necessary. I remember one Yom Kippur in particular attending services in a very large shul, thinking how incredibly easy it would be to kill an awful lot of Jews very easily. Now, if you are talking about Reform or “progressive” Judaism, they would have toed the line of political correctness and prohibited any and all weapons. 

I also used to work at a Jewish day school. We got regular visits from local police and the FBI on the latest specific threats to various locations within the  Jewish community. Including our school. A place full of children. 

The attack this weekend left me broken-hearted. And - I guess oddly - feeling guilty for having converted. 

I would love to hear more from you about this. It's certainly consistent with what I have heard.

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Joseph Smith's favorite song was "A Poor 'wayfaring Man of Grief" (#29 ), the last verse of which is

In fact there will be some question as to who he is when he comes in glory, and there will be some consternation at first, according to the D&C and to the Prophet Zechariah:

D&C 45:48-52,

 

Actually, in most LDS interpretations of the Second Coming the appearance at the Mount of Olives is not the Coming in Glory throughout the whole world.

There are usually four appearances and this is usually the order they are put in:

1) Comes to the Temple, probably the Jackson County one and possibly others.

2) Adam-ondi-ahman where the leaders of every dispensation make their reports and return the delegated keys of the priesthood to Christ, red tape before Savior can take up temporal authority.

3) Saving the Jews by appearing in Jerusalem (verses from Zechariah).

4) Final appearance in glory where the whole world will see His coming and see Him in some way that has not been explained. This is the one you probably cannot miss. Maybe if you are a really heavy sleeper.......

 

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27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Actually, in most LDS interpretations of the Second Coming the appearance at the Mount of Olives is not the Coming in Glory throughout the whole world.

There are usually four appearances and this is usually the order they are put in:

1) Comes to the Temple, probably the Jackson County one and possibly others.

2) Adam-ondi-ahman where the leaders of every dispensation make their reports and return the delegated keys of the priesthood to Christ, red tape before Savior can take up temporal authority.

3) Saving the Jews by appearing in Jerusalem (verses from Zechariah).

4) Final appearance in glory where the whole world will see His coming and see Him in some way that has not been explained. This is the one you probably cannot miss. Maybe if you are a really heavy sleeper.......

What about the Rapture?  Where all the righteous get caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah?

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3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What about the Rapture?  Where all the righteous get caught up to heaven like Enoch and Elijah?

Part of 4. The righteous are caught up into the air and meet with the Church of the Firstborn and hug and weep and all that. Then the Millenium is established under Christ's governing power and many of his ministers will probably be resurrected and/or translated beings.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Part of 4. The righteous are caught up into the air and meet with the Church of the Firstborn and hug and weep and all that. Then the Millenium is established under Christ's governing power and many of his ministers will probably be resurrected and/or translated beings.

Good.  I didn't want to miss that part of it.  Glad that you're a bona fide pre-millennialist.

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5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Good.  I didn't want to miss that part of it.  Glad that you're a bona fide pre-millennialist.

Can you be LDS without believing that? It is baked into the Articles of Faith.

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19 hours ago, Raingirl said:

As someone who converted from Orthodox Judaism,
...
The attack this weekend left me broken-hearted. And - I guess oddly - feeling guilty for having converted. 

 

I can understand the feeling.  The week I moved out of Utah, there was that freaky downtown SLC tornado that killed two.  I remember thinking if I had frequented that area, I'd be feeling like a traitor for not being there to help.

But correct me if I'm wrong here - Judaism is both a set of religious beliefs and a "racial identity", right?  Meaning, you don't stop being Jewish just because you convert to restored Christianity, correct?

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26 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I can understand the feeling.  The week I moved out of Utah, there was that freaky downtown SLC tornado that killed two.  I remember thinking if I had frequented that area, I'd be feeling like a traitor for not being there to help.

But correct me if I'm wrong here - Judaism is both a set of religious beliefs and a "racial identity", right?  Meaning, you don't stop being Jewish just because you convert to restored Christianity, correct?

Judaism is not a race. Jews come in all races. You can convert to a religion, but you cannot convert to a race.  Ethnic or cultural identity would probably be a more apt description. 

Halacha (Jewish law) is clear on who is a Jew. But when it comes to the question of whether or not a Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew, Halacha is less clear and you will get differing opinions depending on which rabbi you consult. 

Rather than take up so much time on this thread with my (inarticulate) explanations, I can steer you towards resources on the internet. At koltorah.org, there is a tree-part discussion on the relevant Halacha. Chabad.org is also a good resource. 

Mall that said, for me going to Sacrament meeting next week as opposed to contributing to a strength-in-numbers showing by helping to fill the synagogues next Saturday just feels......lacking?  It’s just one of those feelings you cannot articulate without having experienced it.

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14 hours ago, USU78 said:

I would love to hear more from you about this. It's certainly consistent with what I have heard.

I’d be happy to share what I can. It might be more appropriate to send a PM?

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39 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Judaism is not a race. Jews come in all races. You can convert to a religion, but you cannot convert to a race.  Ethnic or cultural identity would probably be a more apt description. 

Halacha (Jewish law) is clear on who is a Jew. But when it comes to the question of whether or not a Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew, Halacha is less clear and you will get differing opinions depending on which rabbi you consult. 

Rather than take up so much time on this thread with my (inarticulate) explanations, I can steer you towards resources on the internet. At koltorah.org, there is a tree-part discussion on the relevant Halacha. Chabad.org is also a good resource. 

Mall that said, for me going to Sacrament meeting next week as opposed to contributing to a strength-in-numbers showing by helping to fill the synagogues next Saturday just feels......lacking?  It’s just one of those feelings you cannot articulate without having experienced it.

As someone who comes from a family of Jewish (and Latino, think Essig burritos) converts, this has been my vibe and feeling too.

Edited by halconero
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If a violent intruder was unlucky enough to come on High Council Sunday, he might just be bored stiff before he was able to act . :acute:

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On 10/30/2018 at 1:19 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

What's your Facebook friend's name?

 

Tim Berends

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10 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Judaism is not a race. Jews come in all races. You can convert to a religion, but you cannot convert to a race.  Ethnic or cultural identity would probably be a more apt description. 

Halacha (Jewish law) is clear on who is a Jew. But when it comes to the question of whether or not a Jew who converts to Christianity is still a Jew, Halacha is less clear and you will get differing opinions depending on which rabbi you consult. 

Rather than take up so much time on this thread with my (inarticulate) explanations, I can steer you towards resources on the internet. At koltorah.org, there is a tree-part discussion on the relevant Halacha. Chabad.org is also a good resource. 

Mall that said, for me going to Sacrament meeting next week as opposed to contributing to a strength-in-numbers showing by helping to fill the synagogues next Saturday just feels......lacking?  It’s just one of those feelings you cannot articulate without having experienced it.

To convert to Judaism is seen within Judaism as becoming Jewish, ethnically,  not just adopting a belief system.

Jews believe that a certain number of the Jewish souls who were present at Mount Sinai were born into non-Jewish bodies and find their way to Judaism brcause that is what they truly are. 

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