rodheadlee Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 what is our position on the Caravan headed to our borders? I got so angry watching Fox news last night with those guys and gals invoking God's name praying that the Caravan doesn't reach our border. What are your thoughts? 3 Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 My thoughts are we should live up to the poem we mounted on the Statue of Liberty: Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" 14 Link to comment
Popular Post changed Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) I live near the boarder, and work with migrants. I love them. They are humble, kind, family centered, hard working, incredible people. Edited October 26, 2018 by changed 7 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, changed said: I live near the boarder, and work with migrants. I love them. They are humble, kind, family centered, hard working, incredible people. Clearly you have been corrupted by people you actually know and associate with. If you want to understand reality you need to watch more Fox News. Hope this helps. 3 Link to comment
freedad Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 I think the Lord wants all of His children to have the chance to be free and prosper. However, I also believe that He does not believe that other of His children should be forced to pay or subsidize the immigrants. (i.e. taxes to support social services). Taking the private property of some by force through taxes to give to others is not the Lord's way.. He would want us to act voluntarily in helping others. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: what is our position on the Caravan headed to our borders? .................. Not sure that we as a Church have a position on that specific group of people from Central America. Maybe something about refugees. The official Church seems to ignore questions about legal immigrant status in calling missionaries. What about Ex 22:21, Lev 19:34, Deut 10:19? Quote ""Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt." "You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God." "So you also must love the foreigner, since you yourselves were foreigners in the land of Egypt." Edited October 26, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 42 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: what is our position on the Caravan headed to our borders? I got so angry watching Fox news last night with those guys and gals invoking God's name praying that the Caravan doesn't reach our border. What are your thoughts? By “our,” I assume you mean the Church of Jesus Christ. What position would you expect the Church to take on it, bearing in mind that it is rare for the Church to take positions on political matters and there must be a compelling need when it does so. Furthermore, it is common for good members of the Church to disagree politically. That is pretty much expected within reason. Link to comment
Popular Post Kevin Christensen Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 Along with the apt message of the Statue of Liberty (Bravo, despite Steven Miller's ethical toxicity on that) it's a matter of "Am I my brother's keeper?" and "Who is my neighbor?" and "Remember that you were a stranger" and "Whatsoever ye have done unto the least of these they brethren, ye have done it unto me." And I think of Ammon's people, and Alma's and Limhi's groups in the Book of Mormon. I think of the idea of America that I was raised in, a nation of immigrants, an idea of freedom, hope, and opportunity for all. And we have a President who wants the Military to go to the border to prevent people fleeing violence and oppression in their homelands, due in significant part to bungled US policies, walking thousands of miles with their families from coming here on grounds that they might want to vote democrat and raise taxes on Billionaires? I remember when Trump told his followers at the RNC in 2016, "Only I can save you." The choice of Savior has implications. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg 11 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not sure that we as a Church have a position on that specific group of people from Central America. Maybe something about refugees. The official Church seems to ignore questions about legal immigrant status in calling missionaries. What about Ex 22:21, Lev 19:34, Deut 10:19? I’ve heard Church leaders say the Church recognizes the right of individual nations to secure their borders. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Kevin Christensen said: Along with the apt message of the Statue of Liberty (Bravo, despite Steven Miller's ethical toxicity on that) it's a matter of "Am I my brother's keeper?" and "Who is my neighbor?" and "Remember that you were a stranger" and "Whatsoever ye have done unto the least of these they brethren, ye have done it unto me." And I think of Ammon's people, and Alma's and Limhi's groups in the Book of Mormon. I think of the idea of America that I was raised in, a nation of immigrants, an idea of freedom, hope, and opportunity for all. And we have a President who wants the Military to go to the border to prevent people fleeing violence and oppression in their homelands, due in significant part to bungled US policies, walking thousands of miles with their families from coming here on grounds that they might want to vote democrat and raise taxes on Billionaires? I remember when Trump told his followers at the RNC in 2016, "Only I can save you." The choice of Savior has implications. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg Don’t individual nations have the right to secure their borders and require an orderly immigration process? 5 Link to comment
ksfisher Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Ideas, resources, and guidance for helping refugees https://www.lds.org/refugees?lang=eng 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 44 minutes ago, changed said: I live near the boarder, and work with migrants. I love them. They are humble, kind, family centered, hard working, incredible people. Sounds racist to me. Racial sterotyping is not acceptable. Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Don’t individual nations have the right to secure their borders and require an orderly immigration process? Yes, they do. They also have a duty to be true to their principles or stop pretending and discard them. If we would adjust our immigration laws to be true to our principles such as the above poem can you imagine how God would bless such a generous nation? I mean, if my child was a tired and desperate refugee used to rejection and despair and the people of a nation threw open their doors and let them in and nursed them to health and prosperity I would love that nation forever and I can only love as a mortal. I mean......wow, can you imagine what God would pour out on that nation? On a more terrifying not if our Doctrine is true and Christ took upon himself all of the sorrows and sufferings of all of us then we are shutting him out when we send the military to drive him off. Instead we keep our laws as they are and pretend we would be more charitable if we could but the laws are the laws and we have no enthusiasm to change them so we throw up our hands and pretend we are good people but our hands are tied. And the destroying angels start loading up their plague and fire bowls for the inevitable end.. 12 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 41 minutes ago, freedad said: I think the Lord wants all of His children to have the chance to be free and prosper. However, I also believe that He does not believe that other of His children should be forced to pay or subsidize the immigrants. (i.e. taxes to support social services). Taking the private property of some by force through taxes to give to others is not the Lord's way.. He would want us to act voluntarily in helping others. I am sure that those who are suffering appreciate being sacrificed so we can bask in our bank accounts and non-scriptural principles about what an abomination government assistance to the distressed is. 3 Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 33 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Ideas, resources, and guidance for helping refugees https://www.lds.org/refugees?lang=eng But wait, I didn't see anything about the Minutemen (grab your rifle and go down to the border!) there..? Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said: But wait, I didn't see anything about the Minutemen (grab your rifle and go down to the border!) there..? Called that because their IQ is roughly the same as the number of seconds in a minute. 1 Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 This is something I am conflicted on. I am opposed to a forced, disorderly process. But I have no idea how this caravan should be dealt with. It may fall apart as have some others. I don't know how those in that march have been able to be nourished during this long trek. On a moral front I would really like to accept more migrants from our South American neighbors. I believe that it would be better to let them come in via a front door where they could be vetted and documented. If they are here working and earning money and getting educated (and maybe even proselyted) they would be adding to our economy. Maybe a lot of them would choose to stay given the chance. And maybe the bulk of them would be able to return to their native countries armed with their new found financial stability and education to be able to influence the political and financial futures there. And most of them would go back as our friends. Glenn 2 Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Instead we keep our laws as they are and pretend we would be more charitable if we could but the laws are the laws and we have no enthusiasm to change them so we throw up our hands and pretend we are good people but our hands are tied. And the destroying angels start loading up their plague and fire bowls for the inevitable end.. This is such a good point. It hypocrisy for us to hide behind our laws, since they are our laws. We could change them if we wanted to. The fact that we haven't shows that we don't really want, probably because (like you say) it gives us something to hide behind and lets us pretend that we are good people when our actions show otherwise. The situation keeps getting cast as a false dilemma: either we turn away those who desperately need help, our have open unsecured borders. Both political sides like this false dilemma because it casts their side as good and the other side as bad and score political points with their base. But the dilemma is false. We can be in the middle and loosen up asylum and immigration rules and still keep things orderly and secure. We should point out the hypocrisy to those in power. Right now, the republicans are in full power. They could change this if they wanted to. So, let's point out their hypocrisy. When the democrats come into power, and if they don't fix it, we can point out their hypocrisy, too. The LDS migration to Mexico was illegal, wasn't it? Or did Brigham Young and company get permission to settle in Mexico? Furthermore, the Mormons did join in the Mexican American war against Mexico, so not only were those Mormons illegal settlers, they were also treasonous and seditious and actively fought to overthrow the country into which they had moved to avoid terrible persecution. Hmmm, maybe those against the caravan have a point and can point to the Mormons as their historical example of it coming to pass Edited October 26, 2018 by MiserereNobis 9 Link to comment
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 (edited) We have immigration laws. I believe those laws should be enforced. There are clear processes people must follow to be allowed entrance into our country.... just as there are for every other country in the world. If we think the laws are too restrictive or too lax, then we should change them. When I lived in Honduras and Nicaragua, my movements were followed by the authorities. I had to exit and re-enter the countries periodically to verify my continued presence. Failure to do that could result in forced expulsion or imprisonment. They were not kidding. Mexico has strict entry laws, but they allow thousands of people to enter from the south, cross the entire length of their country, and exit into the US without impediment. Try that from our side. Mexico must step up not only to enforce its own laws, but to provide sanctuary and aid for its poorer neighbors. It would be far better to house Central American refugees in a neighboring country that more closely holds to their cultures and speaks their language. These poor people are shamelessly being used and abused financially and physically by evil people and politically by corrupt governments and officials. They are pawns in a much larger game and victims of corruption every step of the way. Those countries should be held responsible for the health and welfare of their own people. We do much to help them, but corruption abounds. The Catholic Church needs to step up its game in those countries. I am all for immigration so long as it is rational, legal, and safe. Edited October 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui 7 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: This is something I am conflicted on. I am opposed to a forced, disorderly process. But I have no idea how this caravan should be dealt with. It may fall apart as have some others. I don't know how those in that march have been able to be nourished during this long trek. On a moral front I would really like to accept more migrants from our South American neighbors. I believe that it would be better to let them come in via a front door where they could be vetted and documented. If they are here working and earning money and getting educated (and maybe even proselyted) they would be adding to our economy. Maybe a lot of them would choose to stay given the chance. And maybe the bulk of them would be able to return to their native countries armed with their new found financial stability and education to be able to influence the political and financial futures there. And most of them would go back as our friends. Glenn Most of the caravan is from Honduras with some Guatemalans and probably a couple of other nationalities mixed in. Honduras is a cesspool right now of violence and poverty. I would probably be running too. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’ve heard Church leaders say the Church recognizes the right of individual nations to secure their borders. 29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Don’t individual nations have the right to secure their borders and require an orderly immigration process? The borders of the USA are very secure, and have been for many years. Propaganda that our borders leak like a sieve is a powerful ploy, but it is false just the same. What we do have are refugees coming from various nations to our legal points of entry and applying for asylum. These are legal, orderly processes and can take years to complete. Other people come from various countries on student and tourist visas and overstay. They become illegal aliens, not because they are raping and robbing (they do that less than native born Americans), but because they do not have current permission to be here. Totalitarian regimes seldom have a problem of that kind, both because they are tightly controlled and because people want to leave rather than come. A free and open society such as ours is particularly vulnerable to people finding a way into this country and then making a home here. It is illegal, but understandable. People love America and vote with their feet. They pay their own way, and are not actually a financial burden on our polity. They even buttress our failing and falling birthrates with needed workers to help support our aging population. All of us have ancestors who came here to make a better life. Unfortunately, U.S. immigration laws in the past have been very discriminatory -- anti-Asian, anti-Hispanic, etc. We need fair, reasonable immigration laws. 6 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: We have immigration laws. I believe those laws should be enforced. There are clear processes people must follow to be allowed entrance into our country.... just as there are for every other country in the world. If we think the laws are too restrictive or too lax, then we should change them. When I lived in Honduras and Nicaragua, my movements were followed by the authorities. I had to exit and renter the country periodically to verify my continued presence. Failure to do that could result in forced expulsion or imprisonment. They were not kidding. Mexico has strict entry laws, but they allow thousands of people to enter from the south, cross the entire length of their country, and exit into the US without impediment. Try that from our side. Mexico must step up not only to enforce its own laws, but to provide sanctuary and aid for its poorer neighbors. These poor people are shamelessly being used and abused financially andphysically by evil people and politically by corrupt governments and officials. They are pawns in a much larger game and victims of corruption every step of the way. Those countries should be held responsible for the health and welfare of their own people. We do much to help them, but corruption abounds. The Catholic Church needs to step up its game in those countries. I am all for immigration so long as it is rational, legal, and safe. Okay, part that is very wrong. Crossing the southern border into Mexico frim Guatemala is much more dangerous then crossing the US southern border. We can and probably should do more to point out the hypocrisy of Mexico wanting us to loosen our immigration standards when murder, rape, and theft are not at all rare on their border. It is probably easier to cross now then the in the past. Mexico has shifted its enforcement efforts further north against the cartels but this might be short-sighted as most of the cartel weaponry is being shipped over the border from Central American nations. Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Mexico has strict entry laws, but they allow thousands of people to enter from the south, cross the entire length of their country, and exit into the US without impediment. Try that from our side I live on the Mexican-American border. I can cross the bridge at El Paso into Mexico for 25 cents and nothing but my driver's license. When I was a teenager, not even the driver's license was needed (it's funny that in 30 years they haven't upped the price from a quarter). So yes, I have tried it from our side, and it is about as easy as can be. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Steve J Posted October 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2018 I'm a little surprised that there isn't more actual discussion and realization about the impact this type of policy has on both US, Europe, and the host nations that they are migrating from. 1. The quick silent move from the debate as to whether these people actually qualify under the law for asylum under the law to just platitudes about letting in the tired and hungry masses. As much as you might dislike Stephen Miller and find a moral compass in the Statute of Liberty poem, it is not an immigration policy. And more importantly, it's not the current immigration policy. Therefore, if you want to change that policy than do it through the legal channels. 2. The quick profiling of all migrants as some super group that is harder working and more compassionate than any US citizens. My work with those in the US illegally is that they run the spectrum of hard working and lazy, compassionate and self-centered, and knowledgeble and ignorant. And guess what? Most are somewhere in between, like a friend who fraudently married to get citizenship and lives with a boyfriend(legal resident and father of their kids) who makes over 100,000, but their kids are under medicaid because the government sees her a single mother making scraps. While many immigrants work tough jobs, there also quite a few who fraud the US taxpayers out of billions of dollars based fraudulent tax returns and other measures. 3. The societal costs of bringing in mass amount of people with little education and that don't speak the language. This isn't 1890 western Indiana they are moving into... The government in Maryland has financed a special school for just Spanish speakers while other mainly african-American students don't get the same type of financing stuck in low performing schools. 4. Not just the brain-drain, but the decency drain that is happening in these countries. If like you, I believe that most of these people are good people looking for a better life, who is staying behind? MS-13 and nortenos? Who will possibly build up and stabilize those countries if only gang members and their kids are left? One issue that these countries face is that we allowed their parents to migrate here to work while their kids grew up without parental figures and got recruited into gangs. 5. While not the majority, I find it odd to think that not a significant number of these mostly young men are not in or were never in gangs. On one hand, we are told the country is full of just gang member, but then we are told none of them are moving here, although basically a quarter of the country has or is currently migrating to the US. 6. The estimates that in 150-250 million Africans will attempt to migrate into Europe by 2050. (not including those from the Middle East from places like Egypt, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, etc..) Is this type of immigration feasible? Or would attempting to stop people who live in comparable and worse situations still immoral?Or do you think Europe will be actually stronger by the diversity of having about 30-50 percent of its population 1st generation immigrants from all over the world? These are the tough questions that I am surprised that a usually thoughtful group failed to discuss. I think its easy to see the morality in helping people who are less fortunate than us(some severely) and that there are some economic and societal benefits to immigration that we have seen throughout the history of our country. But to not even see the potential issue of people demanding entry into our country and doing so by knowingly overwhelming our asylum system seems a little bit of having blinders on and not answering actually the tough questions that mass migration poses in the 21st century. 6 Link to comment
Steve J Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The borders of the USA are very secure, and have been for many years. Propaganda that our borders leak like a sieve is a powerful ploy, but it is false just the same. What we do have are refugees coming from various nations to our legal points of entry and applying for asylum. These are legal, orderly processes and can take years to complete. Other people come from various countries on student and tourist visas and overstay. They become illegal aliens, not because they are raping and robbing (they do that less than native born Americans), but because they do not have current permission to be here. Totalitarian regimes seldom have a problem of that kind, both because they are tightly controlled and because people want to leave rather than come. A free and open society such as ours is particularly vulnerable to people finding a way into this country and then making a home here. It is illegal, but understandable. People love America and vote with their feet. They pay their own way, and are not actually a financial burden on our polity. They even buttress our failing and falling birthrates with needed workers to help support our aging population. All of us have ancestors who came here to make a better life. Unfortunately, U.S. immigration laws in the past have been very discriminatory -- anti-Asian, anti-Hispanic, etc. We need fair, reasonable immigration laws. But the issue is that they are overwhelming our system with non-qualifying claims to a point where they get to stay years with work permits and then either not show up to their hearing or have qualified for a stay of removal based on having lasting connections in the US. (Eg. having a US citizen child while waiting for asylum) 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts