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Ouagadougou

Tithing Breaks Poverty Cycles?

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15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Are you calling Malachi (speaking for God) a liar?  Or are you making a secular observation in accordance with what you want to believe?  God says that he will open up the windows of heaven to bless those who pay tithes. You are saying that such never happens, or at least not consistently.  Do I have that supposition right?  However, it is not at all anecdotal to observe the fact that thousands of Mormon pioneers came to the Great Basin, where life was hard.  Plenty of poverty.  Yet here we are all these years later in a very prosperous Great Basin.  All those Mormons who faithfully paid tithes are no longer poverty stricken.  That is a secular fact.  Is that an embarrassment to you who have rejected the Church?

Why have you not engaged the points I have made about LDS Church programs which successfully conquer poverty?  They are paid for by tithing.  Do you have any conception of the context of any discussion of poverty and tithing?  What would an honest and fair-minded non-Mormon reporter say?

No on calling Malachi a liar, if his words even apply to what you are saying.  I don't think he is talking about monetary rewards as the purpose of tithing should be about spiritual and not monetary prosperity.  There are a lot of poor members who still pay tithes.  I don't think paying tithing does anything other than what any contribution to a charity does and I think perhaps it is as cinepro states where he talks about giving credit to God and tithing when the credit should probably go to the individual or happenstance.  I have a friend that swore that her paying tithing was what caused her to get extra scholarship money.  However, on closer examination, the decision to give her the extra scholarship money was made prior to her tithing dilemma (pay or pay other pressing bills).  The scholarship check arrived after the dilemma and so she attributed her good fortune to tithing.  Isn't it perhaps a case of God wins and gets credit when times are good and we take the blame when it doesn't work as advertised?  I think the better narrative is to leave the blessings in the subjective spiritual realm and not put it in the objective monetary realm where it can be discounted due to lack of proof from the proponents.

True our ancestors suffered in coming here and so did other non-memeber migrants.  Is Utah more or less prosperous than anywhere else out west?  I would say California is more prosperous than Utah.  I would say other states are equally prosperous.  All those non-member non-tithe payers seem to have done fine.  No, I do not think my ancestors' survival/prosperity out here is an embarrassment.

The church's programs are welcome and it could probably do more given the billions it has invested with wall street.

Finally, I think an honest, fair-minded non-member reporter would attribute whatever prosperity to hard work and resourcefulness, as hard, smart workers tend to create prosperity while others do not, regardless of whether or not they tithe.

 

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54 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I'm not sure I understand you.  Are you saying that after you pay your tithing, prayer is a good way to tell if the good stuff that happens to you is a result of having paid tithing?  Yeah, that seems like a great way to avoid any cognitive biases. 

And I'm sure God will be totally honest and let you know "No, that raise you got was already in the pipeline before you paid your tithing.  I had nothing to do with it."

He will be if you know how the Holy Ghost operates and are actually able to understand revelation AND have the Faith to call down the answer. I'm not talking about a "fuzzy feeling", I mean actual revelation.

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5 hours ago, Gray said:

Then either the Lord did not promised that if we follow His commands we will prosper in the land, or the Lord broke his promise.

 

Or maybe you're just twisting the word prosperous to mean what you want instead of seeing other kinds of prospering.

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50 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Those were some guys saying the LORD said that, or one guy at least.  

Oh now I get where you're coming from.

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40 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Paying tithing increased my income by 400% at two distinct parts of my life, 10 years apart.

Heard from the Stake PResident in UT about 15 years ago that doubling our fast offerings will also bring more prosperity (financial and otherwise). Tested it. Proved it.

I honestly hate these types of statements.  I'm not saying that it's not possible that you in particular were chosen by God to receive 400% more money because you paid your tithing, but you really should be cautious with making claims like that, IMO.

I've seen members stop paying their tithing and tripling their business and income within a year (and after they stopped attending church too).  I know some who got new, higher paying jobs and were able to purchase larger, more expensive homes and cars....and so on....

I also know of so many extremely faithful tithe payers who have lost their jobs, had severe health issues (and costs), lost their homes and watched as their kids leave the church or divorce.....and so on....

I think we definitely need to have faith and pay our tithing....but not because we believe more money will start coming in. 

This is right up there with members stating their child was saved because of their faithfulness while another family just lost a child (or a son or daughter who was serving a mission), etc.

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5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I honestly hate these types of statements.  I'm not saying that it's not possible that you in particular were chosen by God to receive 400% more money because you paid your tithing, but you really should be cautious with making claims like that, IMO.

I've seen members stop paying their tithing and tripling their business and income within a year (and after they stopped attending church too).  I know some who got new, higher paying jobs and were able to purchase larger, more expensive homes and cars....and so on....

I also know of so many extremely faithful tithe payers who have lost their jobs, had severe health issues (and costs), lost their homes and watched as their kids leave the church or divorce.....and so on....

I think we definitely need to have faith and pay our tithing....but not because we believe more money will start coming in. 

This is right up there with members stating their child was saved because of their faithfulness while another family just lost a child (or a son or daughter who was serving a mission), etc.

Facts are facts.

I shouldn't share them because they won't apply to everyone?

Should I share "the windows of heaven" scripture about tithing?

Sometimes trials come and sometimes they go. 

For your friends who stopped paying tithing and got the consequences you stated, that's cool and all but what is your indiviudal experience with the principle?

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3 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Or maybe you're just twisting the word prosperous to mean what you want instead of seeing other kinds of prospering.

If that's the case why are you defending the prosperity gospel? If you're talking about spiritual blessings you have no argument with me.

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8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

He never made that promise.  

Agreed. Jesus said the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked alike. The prosperity gospel is a golden calf, worshiped in vain by millions.

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5 hours ago, Exiled said:

No on calling Malachi a liar, if his words even apply to what you are saying.  I don't think he is talking about monetary rewards as the purpose of tithing should be about spiritual and not monetary prosperity.  There are a lot of poor members who still pay tithes.  I don't think paying tithing does anything other than what any contribution to a charity does and I think perhaps it is as cinepro states where he talks about giving credit to God and tithing when the credit should probably go to the individual or happenstance.  I have a friend that swore that her paying tithing was what caused her to get extra scholarship money.  However, on closer examination, the decision to give her the extra scholarship money was made prior to her tithing dilemma (pay or pay other pressing bills).  The scholarship check arrived after the dilemma and so she attributed her good fortune to tithing.  Isn't it perhaps a case of God wins and gets credit when times are good and we take the blame when it doesn't work as advertised?  I think the better narrative is to leave the blessings in the subjective spiritual realm and not put it in the objective monetary realm where it can be discounted due to lack of proof from the proponents.

I agree that the benefits/blessings to the tithe-payer should be viewed as primarily spiritual.  However, that still doesn't explain why you fault Jesus for praising the widow with her mite, or Elijah for taking the last of a widow's food. After all, you implied falsely that Doc Nelson was merely driving the poor further into poverty by asking them to pay tithing.  And you still refuse to place his comments in real-life context -- which is what any fair-minded non-Mormon reporter would do.  A professional reporter knows better than to ignore context, despite any biases or prejudices he may have.

Worse yet, you failed to define what tithing is, attempting to make it look like people who have nothing are being asked to pay 10 percent of nothing.  That doesn't even make sense, and it makes Doc Nelson look like Satan incarnate.

5 hours ago, Exiled said:

True our ancestors suffered in coming here and so did other non-memeber migrants.  Is Utah more or less prosperous than anywhere else out west?  I would say California is more prosperous than Utah.  I would say other states are equally prosperous.  All those non-member non-tithe payers seem to have done fine.  No, I do not think my ancestors' survival/prosperity out here is an embarrassment.

But your argument was that paying tithing made people more poverty-stricken, and that only a heartless organization (such the the LDS Church) would ask poor people to pay tithing.  In fact exactly the opposite happened.  Paying tithing did not make poor people even poorer -- that's what you were claiming.  You even admit that the pioneers did very well and that they built a prosperous society.  How is that possible, given your claim that they should have only gotten poorer?  Then you point out that plenty of non-Mormons came west and prospered.  Yet they all paid dues/offerings to their respective churches and synagogues.  That should have made them even poorer than they were to start with.  See where your lack of context leads you?

5 hours ago, Exiled said:

The church's programs are welcome and it could probably do more given the billions it has invested with wall street.

If you knew and understood the vast extent of the LDS welfare programs you would speak more respectfully.  LDS welfare work worldwide includes contributions to non-Mormons in disastrous situations, often without any publicity and often done through other organizations (LDS funds have been funneled through Catholic Relief, for example).  Investing money makes it grow (Jesus Parable of the Talents), which makes far more money available to those in need.  Instead of spending funds in a childish hit and miss fashion, the LDS Church is playing the long game and helping greater numbers by being smart about managing the money.  They deserve applause.

5 hours ago, Exiled said:

Finally, I think an honest, fair-minded non-member reporter would attribute whatever prosperity to hard work and resourcefulness, as hard, smart workers tend to create prosperity while others do not, regardless of whether or not they tithe.

Not everyone in society is charitable/compassionate.  That is true.   According to the non-Mormon Journal of Philanthropy, Mormons do give significantly more to charity (both LDS and non-LDS charity) than anyone else in America.  That may be a result of religious commitment. It also means that Doc Nelson is making his tithing appeal on the basis of a responsible LDS Church -- which makes a stronger effort than others at aiding the poor.  Yet, instead of praising Doc Nelson, you cast aspersions.  A fair-minded professional reporter would provide a balanced assessment.  He would have no reason to call into question Doc Nelson's request that everyone pay tithing.  Without that tithing, it would be impossible for the LDS Church to subsidize their widespread educational and practical efforts to reduce poverty.

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The president of my second-last branch once confided in me that it took 25 per cent of his total income to get his family to and from church each Sunday. That was in addition to his 10 per cent tithe. From that, you can guess what his income looked like.

I have literally never heard this whole 'tithing drives the poor deeper into poverty' rhetoric from a single genuinely poor person. For some reason, it's always the pampered who are clamouring about something regarding which they seem to have no firsthand knowledge.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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On 10/19/2018 at 12:45 PM, Ouagadougou said:

What about the impact on THEIR lives? That additional 10% might make a big impact.  No, I don't have contact, but I have with other people around the world who are poorer or just as poor.  

There are a few impacts of tithing on people's lives;

1) They are putting God first when they tithe. Much like prayer and scripture reading in the morning to start your day right, tithing right away places God as a priority over anything else in your life.

2) A bit of a psychological thing on this one. I would think this helps steel your commitment to God. Kind of like joining a gym for $50 a month when you could easily just run around the block. "Well, I've invested now! Better make use of it or I've spent it for nothing!" So you go to the gym more often. 

3) Because that 10% always feel like a significant chunk of change, it forces you to look at your finances more seriously. Do I really need "thing x"? Is "thing x" a necessity or a luxury?  That is one extra step to getting out of a bad income bracket is having an actual plan to save money. 

4) You start looking at the church and seeing if you can find reasons where your money might go a little more closely. For me, it was BYU-Idaho that really help solidify my testimony of what happens with tithing. I also know the Bishop's Storehouse is another top-notch operation. 

So that's four only based on real-world mechanics alone, regardless if anything were to happen supernaturally for anyone. 

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6 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

There are a few impacts of tithing on people's lives;

1) They are putting God first when they tithe. Much like prayer and scripture reading in the morning to start your day right, tithing right away places God as a priority over anything else in your life.

2) A bit of a psychological thing on this one. I would think this helps steel your commitment to God. Kind of like joining a gym for $50 a month when you could easily just run around the block. "Well, I've invested now! Better make use of it or I've spent it for nothing!" So you go to the gym more often. 

3) Because that 10% always feel like a significant chunk of change, it forces you to look at your finances more seriously. Do I really need "thing x"? Is "thing x" a necessity or a luxury?  That is one extra step to getting out of a bad income bracket is having an actual plan to save money. 

4) You start looking at the church and seeing if you can find reasons where your money might go a little more closely. For me, it was BYU-Idaho that really help solidify my testimony of what happens with tithing. I also know the Bishop's Storehouse is another top-notch operation. 

So that's four only based on real-world mechanics alone, regardless if anything were to happen supernaturally for anyone. 

Still...nothing at all to support the claim that giving up that 10% will break poverty cycles.  

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5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Still...nothing at all to support the claim that giving up that 10% will break poverty cycles.  

And here you were honestly thinking that someone was going to show up with a decades long intersectional international research study on the paying of tithing,

Or this statement is a cheap attempt to score stupid rhetorical points.

Which is it?

Edited by The Nehor
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16 hours ago, Gray said:

Agreed. Jesus said the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked alike. The prosperity gospel is a golden calf, worshiped in vain by millions.

But the manna only grows for the righteous. 

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23 minutes ago, pogi said:

But the manna only grows for the righteous. 

Yes, but the manna is within you.

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8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, but the manna is within you.

But then we discover the true manna is the friends we found along the way.

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21 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Oh now I get where you're coming from.

When the scriptures say God says something do you just assume that God really said those words?  

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

And here you were honestly thinking that someone was going to show up with a decades long intersectional international research study on the paying of tithing,

Or this statement is a cheap attempt to score stupid rhetorical points.

Which is it?

It is the prophet making this claim...not me.  

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

But then we discover the true manna is the friends we found along the way.

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On 10/22/2018 at 11:41 AM, Exiled said:

No on calling Malachi a liar, if his words even apply to what you are saying.  I don't think he is talking about monetary rewards as the purpose of tithing should be about spiritual and not monetary prosperity.  There are a lot of poor members who still pay tithes.  I don't think paying tithing does anything other than what any contribution to a charity does and I think perhaps it is as cinepro states where he talks about giving credit to God and tithing when the credit should probably go to the individual or happenstance.  I have a friend that swore that her paying tithing was what caused her to get extra scholarship money.  However, on closer examination, the decision to give her the extra scholarship money was made prior to her tithing dilemma (pay or pay other pressing bills).  The scholarship check arrived after the dilemma and so she attributed her good fortune to tithing.  Isn't it perhaps a case of God wins and gets credit when times are good and we take the blame when it doesn't work as advertised?  I think the better narrative is to leave the blessings in the subjective spiritual realm and not put it in the objective monetary realm where it can be discounted due to lack of proof from the proponents.

True our ancestors suffered in coming here and so did other non-memeber migrants.  Is Utah more or less prosperous than anywhere else out west?  I would say California is more prosperous than Utah.  I would say other states are equally prosperous.  All those non-member non-tithe payers seem to have done fine.  No, I do not think my ancestors' survival/prosperity out here is an embarrassment.

The church's programs are welcome and it could probably do more given the billions it has invested with wall street.

Finally, I think an honest, fair-minded non-member reporter would attribute whatever prosperity to hard work and resourcefulness, as hard, smart workers tend to create prosperity while others do not, regardless of whether or not they tithe.

 

I think you brought up some valid points.  Does God monetarily bless tithe paying members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  If that is true, then the data should support that assumption.  So I did a little digging

550px-Income_Ranking_by_Religious_Group_-_2000.png.a8c6afc218e90ab91c9a95e399dd3416.png

Looks like one should be giving money to a host of other religions if you want to prosper financially.

And how about by state?  Given Utah has the highest percentage of tithing going to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are they the wealthiest state?

Looks like that is a no as well.

Rank State or territory 2015 2014 2013 2012 2011[n 1]
1 23px-Flag_of_Maryland.svg.png Maryland $75,847 $73,971 $72,483 $71,122 $70,004
2 23px-Flag_of_the_District_of_Columbia.sv District of Columbia $75,628 $71,648 $67,572 $66,583 $63,124
3 23px-Flag_of_Hawaii.svg.png Hawaii $73,486 $69,592 $68,020 $66,259 $61,821
4 21px-Flag_of_Alaska.svg.png Alaska $73,355 $71,583 $72,237 $67,712 $67,825
5 23px-Flag_of_New_Jersey.svg.png New Jersey $72,222 $71,919 $70,165 $69,667 $67,458
6 20px-Flag_of_Connecticut.svg.png Connecticut $71,346 $70,048 $67,098 $67,276 $65,753
7 23px-Flag_of_Massachusetts.svg.png Massachusetts $70,628 $69,160 $66,768 $65,339 $62,859
8 23px-Flag_of_New_Hampshire.svg.png New Hampshire $70,303 $66,532 $64,230 $63,280 $62,647
9 22px-Flag_of_Virginia.svg.png Virginia $66,262 $64,902 $62,666 $61,741 $61,882
10 23px-Flag_of_California.svg.png California $64,500 $61,933 $60,190 $58,328 $57,287
11 Washington (state) Washington $64,129 $61,366 $58,405 $57,573 $56,835
12 23px-Flag_of_Colorado.svg.png Colorado $63,909 $61,303 $58,823 $56,765 $55,387
13 23px-Flag_of_Minnesota.svg.png Minnesota $63,488 $61,481 $60,702 $58,906 $56,954
14 23px-Flag_of_Utah.svg.png Utah $62,912 $60,922 $59,770 $57,049 $55,869

 

I don't like knocking anyone's beliefs.  If you want to pay tithing and feel like you get blessed, then you should.  But claims that it will lift you out of poverty seems like an overreach.  I do have a problem with church leaders making promises in the name of God that don't appear to come from Him.  This seems to be one of those cases.

 

 

 

Edited by california boy
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2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

It is the prophet making this claim...not me.  

You are the one demanding evidence. Prophets, pretty much by definition, do not provide any. 

“Repent or this city will be destroyed within the year!”

”Prove it!”

”No.”

(A year later)

“Aaaaghhh, it burns. Please, let me die!”

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56 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you brought up some valid points.  Does God monetarily bless tithe paying members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  If that is true, then the data should support that assumption.  So I did a little digging

550px-Income_Ranking_by_Religious_Group_-_2000.png.a8c6afc218e90ab91c9a95e399dd3416.png

Looks like one should be giving money to a host of other religions if you want to prosper financially.

And how about by state?  Given Utah has the highest percentage of tithing going to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are they the wealthiest state?

Looks like that is a no as well.

Rank State or territory 2015 2014 2013 2012 2011[n 1]
1 23px-Flag_of_Maryland.svg.png Maryland $75,847 $73,971 $72,483 $71,122 $70,004
2 23px-Flag_of_the_District_of_Columbia.sv District of Columbia $75,628 $71,648 $67,572 $66,583 $63,124
3 23px-Flag_of_Hawaii.svg.png Hawaii $73,486 $69,592 $68,020 $66,259 $61,821
4 21px-Flag_of_Alaska.svg.png Alaska $73,355 $71,583 $72,237 $67,712 $67,825
5 23px-Flag_of_New_Jersey.svg.png New Jersey $72,222 $71,919 $70,165 $69,667 $67,458
6 20px-Flag_of_Connecticut.svg.png Connecticut $71,346 $70,048 $67,098 $67,276 $65,753
7 23px-Flag_of_Massachusetts.svg.png Massachusetts $70,628 $69,160 $66,768 $65,339 $62,859
8 23px-Flag_of_New_Hampshire.svg.png New Hampshire $70,303 $66,532 $64,230 $63,280 $62,647
9 22px-Flag_of_Virginia.svg.png Virginia $66,262 $64,902 $62,666 $61,741 $61,882
10 23px-Flag_of_California.svg.png California $64,500 $61,933 $60,190 $58,328 $57,287
11 Washington (state) Washington $64,129 $61,366 $58,405 $57,573 $56,835
12 23px-Flag_of_Colorado.svg.png Colorado $63,909 $61,303 $58,823 $56,765 $55,387
13 23px-Flag_of_Minnesota.svg.png Minnesota $63,488 $61,481 $60,702 $58,906 $56,954
14 23px-Flag_of_Utah.svg.png Utah $62,912 $60,922 $59,770 $57,049 $55,869

 

I don't like knocking anyone's beliefs.  If you want to pay tithing and feel like you get blessed, then you should.  But claims that it will lift you out of poverty seems like an overreach.  I do have a problem with church leaders making promises in the name of God that don't appear to come from Him.  This seems to be one of those cases.

 

 

 

Now if we could just filter that group on who actually pays their tithing we could have some good data. The percentages I have seen are.......not good.

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Now if we could just filter that group on who actually pays their tithing we could have some good data. The percentages I have seen are.......not good.

There are also those who choose to put family, not job first and therefore reject or are rejected for higher paying, but more demanding jobs (not saying Latter-day Saints are the only ones who do this, just that larger families and family time being pushed in our faith has an effect).  Also we tend to be higher educated, but not go into a lot of post graduate work...not sure if that affects income levels in a positive or negative way.

Edited by Calm

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It is nice to know I am rich by those standards. I should buy a top hat, a monocle, and a smoking jacket because I have got it made.

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8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are the one demanding evidence. Prophets, pretty much by definition, do not provide any. 

“Repent or this city will be destroyed within the year!”

”Prove it!”

”No.”

(A year later)

“Aaaaghhh, it burns. Please, let me die!”

More like:

 

Prophet exclaims:  "repent or this city will be destroyed within a year"

"prove it" the crowd requests

"No."

Years pass with no destruction.  The prophet makes other crazy predictions and espouse other goofy teachings and people continue to believe for some reason.  

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