Tithing Breaks Poverty Cycles?

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

So how can the President Nelson make that judgement/statement if it is based on faith, spiritual blessings, and "anecdotal evidence."  What I am bringing into question is his claim that tithing ends poverty cycles (nothing to do with a testimony or the spiritual side of it). It's like telling people that eating less will help end hunger...and he has NO evidence support his claim.  

Your comments here are entirely false.  We currently have two adult missionaries from my ward in the Accra Ghana West Mission.  They are in their 6th year there out in the boondocks, helping people.  They could be sitting at home in Provo, enjoying their retirement.  Instead they do what the faithful do regularly.  Paying it forward, and bringing God's blessings to the African bush.  The LDS Church is not an "anecdotal" Church, and it does not "pad the books."  Instead, the LDS Church functionaries spend there time keeping precise books on everything, knowing where every penny is spent and why.  We are all about real returns on investments, real results of our vast educational enterprise -- in which, instead of giving a fish, we teach how to fish, so that fisherman can fish successfully for life.  That's a metaphor, amigo.  You are so attached to failed systems that you imagine that everyone else is also failure -prone.  You owe Doc Nelson an abject apology.

[Robert F. Smith]

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Ending poverty is a spiritual benefit. The principle of tithing, when properly observed, is intertwined with the other gospel principles for a synergistic effect according to Elder Bednar's recent conference talk.

True enough, but Ougadougou doesn't believe in "spiritual benefits," nor in synergism.  Nor is he willing to experiment with faith.  If he were willing to take a closer look he would find that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the power to change lives and bring people out of poverty.  Perhaps he doesn't want to believe that happy message.  How sad.

[pogi]

54 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Read the article:

"We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing."

I see.  I think he could have worded that better.  I don't think he was really saying that you have no hope of breaking the poverty cycle if you don't pay your tithing - clearly more prosperous (relatively speaking) people in Kenya probably don't pay tithing.  I think what he was trying to say is that people have broken the poverty cycle of generations as a blessing of paying tithing. 

[pogi]

45 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

BTW, I like President Nelson and some of his recent changes, but that doesn't mean I can't be openly against some of his other ideas/statements.  

Fair enough.

[SettingDogStar]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

So how can the President Nelson make that judgement/statement if it is based on faith, spiritual blessings, and "anecdotal evidence."  What I am bringing into question is his claim that tithing ends poverty cycles (nothing to do with a testimony or the spiritual side of it). It's like telling people that eating less will help end hunger...and he has NO evidence support his claim.  

The thing is that the Lord blesses us according to what we need. My family has been below the poverty line before but we’ve had all we needed, even if it was only barely enough, and we paid tithing. The Prophet knows that while paying tithing won’t make anyone rich per-say it will give call down blessings from the Lord that will ensure they have what they need, if only barely. 

 

Besides those that pay their tithing who REALLY need it are those that really get the blessings. If you pay your tithing with little to no sacrifice then you get little to no blessings aince nothing was truly sacrificed.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

And now they have a temple. How do you presume to speak for them?

And in order to attend this temple they must give up 10% of their income, so poor people are becoming poorer, not quite the claim that tithing ends poverty cycles.  

[Ouagadougou]

54 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The proof will come in being obedient.  Anything else would seem to be sign seeking.  Paul tells us that we walk by faith in this life.  Those who have faith in the Lord and are determined to follow his prophets will see the promised blessings.  Those who wait for proof before acting will not.

"Spiritual proof," but still nothing to substantiate the claim that it ends poverty cycles.  

[Ouagadougou]

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

The thing is that the Lord blesses us according to what we need. My family has been below the poverty line before but we’ve had all we needed, even if it was only barely enough, and we paid tithing. The Prophet knows that while paying tithing won’t make anyone rich per-say it will give call down blessings from the Lord that will ensure they have what they need, if only barely. 

 

Besides those that pay their tithing who REALLY need it are those that really get the blessings. If you pay your tithing with little to no sacrifice then you get little to no blessings aince nothing was truly sacrificed.

You are talking about spiritual blessing, but I am focused on the claim that tithing ends actual poverty cycles.  

[Ouagadougou]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

I see.  I think he could have worded that better.  I don't think he was really saying that you have no hope of breaking the poverty cycle if you don't pay your tithing - clearly more prosperous (relatively speaking) people in Kenya probably don't pay tithing.  I think what he was trying to say is that people have broken the poverty cycle of generations as a blessing of paying tithing. 

 

36 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your comments here are entirely false.  We currently have two adult missionaries from my ward in the Accra Ghana West Mission.  They are in their 6th year there out in the boondocks, helping people.  They could be sitting at home in Provo, enjoying their retirement.  Instead they do what the faithful do regularly.  Paying it forward, and bringing God's blessings to the African bush.  The LDS Church is not an "anecdotal" Church, and it does not "pad the books."  Instead, the LDS Church functionaries spend there time keeping precise books on everything, knowing where every penny is spent and why.  We are all about real returns on investments, real results of our vast educational enterprise -- in which, instead of giving a fish, we teach how to fish, so that fisherman can fish successfully for life.  That's a metaphor, amigo.  You are so attached to failed systems that you imagine that everyone else is also failure -prone.  You owe Doc Nelson an abject apology.

I don't owe anyone an apology, especially if they are my own opinions/beliefs.  

Freedom of choice and belief, amigo.  

[SettingDogStar]

3 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

You are talking about spiritual blessing, but I am focused on the claim that tithing ends actual poverty cycles.  

I understand, and maybe it doesn’t break poverty cycles, but I actually am talking about Physical blessings. The Lord will literally, through miracles , provide physical  blessings those in need of physical things. Especially those who are sacrificing physical things (tithing). 

[Ouagadougou]

34 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

True enough, but Ougadougou doesn't believe in "spiritual benefits," nor in synergism.  Nor is he willing to experiment with faith.  If he were willing to take a closer look he would find that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the power to change lives and bring people out of poverty.  Perhaps he doesn't want to believe that happy message.  How sad.

That is a pretty judgemental statement since you don't know me as a person or my faith/experiences.  Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't give you the right to make such generalizations.   

[Ouagadougou]

4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I understand, and maybe it doesn’t break poverty cycles, but I actually am talking about Physical blessings. The Lord will literally, through miracles , provide physical  blessings those in need of physical things. Especially those who are sacrificing physical things (tithing). 

If you are talking about "physical/monetery blessings," then please explain giving up 10% of your income helps improve your financial situation (if you will never get that $ back) and are already below the poverty line?  How is that 10% gap in terms of $ filled?  By whom?  

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

True enough, but Ougadougou doesn't believe in "spiritual benefits," nor in synergism.  Nor is he willing to experiment with faith.  If he were willing to take a closer look he would find that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has the power to change lives and bring people out of poverty.  Perhaps he doesn't want to believe that happy message.  How sad.

But surely he must see that what we call spiritual blessings can also be termed social benefits.  The idea that national results require national faith (according to Malachi 3) is a sound poli-sci principle. That a small minority can stimulate a nation's faith/ motivation (according to Matthew 13:33, Galatians 5:9) may by nature seem revolutionary, but it has been accomplished more than once (for better or worse, anyway). Scientifically-speaking (I'm thinking botany and animal husbandry, but this is seen in other physical phenomena as well), a short-term reduction in something often leads to its long term increase because other dynamics are involved (nothing happens in a vacuum). Oh wait, that's one of my favorite scriptures, too: John 12:24!

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Hello everyone and Happy Friday!

I hope you are all doing well.

I've been out of the country and traveling a lot, so I have been away for a good period of time.

I recently read the article below and was shocked by the prophet's claim that tithing can break poverty cycles.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900016023/dowry-is-not-the-lords-way-in-kenya-lds-president-nelson-says-tithing-breaks-poverty-cycle.html

"President Nelson also said tithing can break cycles of poverty in poor nations and families."

"'We preach tithing to the poor people of the world because the poor people of the world have had cycles of poverty, generation after generation," he said. "That same poverty continues from one generation to another, until people pay their tithing.'"

IMO, giving up 10% of one's income actually causes more financial struggles for many in the world, especially in countries like Kenya. Moreover, it's important to mention that in Kenya "fourty two percent of its population of 44 million, live below the poverty line."

https://www.unicef.org/kenya/overview_4616.html

The belief that tithing will magically rid Kenya of poverty cycles and solve their financial struggles, IMO, is dishonest, out of touch with reality, and extremely misleading. Likewise, claiming that tithing will ensure "spiritual blessings" is one thing; however, asserting that poverty will continue until poor people pay their tithing (I think) is ridiculous and very naive about how many people live across the world.

With "spiritual blessings/benefits" set aside (as some might believe), do you think President Nelson's comments were ill-informed or delusional about poor communities and poverty, as they relate directly to their day-to-day financial situations/burdens?

Tithing is not a magic process that you pay and boom money falls on your head. It requires that an individual or family review their family budget and choose to pay tithing because it is what the Lord has commanded. Once they choose to pay - they learn to live by a budget. This affects their choices and the manner they live. They seek the Lord for guidance in their choices and continue to move forward. They also begin to look forward to what expenses they can expect in the future. This also affects how they teach their children and how they plan for their future. 

Poverty is not a magic talisman that just appears. If often affects generations of families and individuals that often simply do not have a culture of budgeting, education, and planning. I have read several reports about teaching Third World Nations superior farming principles and introducing tractors, fertilizer, etc. Teachers go away and in a short time, they return to their old way of farming, which leads back to a path of subsistence. Why?  I agree that the reasons are multifaceted, but one answer is not because they were not taught better and their choices were poor.

I am positive that paying tithing leads one into a more spiritual way of being. I also think that paying tithing helps families and individuals learn to live a more fruitful lifestyle. 

 

[The Nehor]

I don’t think you get the whole “prophet” thing.

[Ouagadougou]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think you get the whole “prophet” thing.

I do in the sense that they are fallible, often speak as men, and, many times, have been on the wrong side of history or behind the power curve.  

[The Nehor]

Just now, Ouagadougou said:

I do in the sense that they are fallible, often speak as men, and, many times, have been on the wrong side of history or behind the power curve.  

In this case he was not fallible, speaking as a man, or on the wrong side of history and if his counsel is followed the promised blessings will come.

 I have no idea what being behind the power curve even means so I cannot speak to that.

If you want substantiated proof of what he says I recommend heading on over and conducting a decades long research study on tithing paying and its results. Good luck, we will all look forward to your final report.

 

 

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

BTW, I like President Nelson and some of his recent changes, but that doesn't mean I can't be openly against some of his other ideas/statements.  

If you want to be a faithful Latter Day Saint then I wouldn’t recommend open rebellion against the Lords commands

[Ouagadougou]

11 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Tithing is not a magic process that you pay and boom money falls on your head. It requires that an individual or family review their family budget and choose to pay tithing because it is what the Lord has commanded. Once they choose to pay - they learn to live by a budget. This affects their choices and the manner they live. They seek the Lord for guidance in their choices and continue to move forward. They also begin to look forward to what expenses they can expect in the future. This also affects how they teach their children and how they plan for their future. 

Poverty is not a magic talisman that just appears. If often affects generations of families and individuals that often simply do not have a culture of budgeting, education, and planning. I have read several reports about teaching Third World Nations superior farming principles and introducing tractors, fertilizer, etc. Teachers go away and in a short time, they return to their old way of farming, which leads back to a path of subsistence. Why?  I agree that the reasons are multifaceted, but one answer is not because they were not taught better and their choices were poor.

I am positive that paying tithing leads one into a more spiritual way of being. I also think that paying tithing helps families and individuals learn to live a more fruitful lifestyle. 

 

If it's not a magic process then why is the prophet himself claiming and telling people that it ends poverty cycles?  If paying tithing did, in fact, end poverty cycles, then why aren't other world organizations that fight poverty use and/or implement it (tithing) as a vital tool?  Because it doesn't help end poverty cycles in any way.  Conversely, tithing is only making poor members even poorer; they don't get that money back.  You can claim they get "spiritual benefits," but not monetary benefits.  

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

The prosperity gospel continues to groan and lurch, zombie-like, through LDS and evangelical teachings.

The Lord has promised that if we follow His commands we will prosper in the land.

and we will

[Bernard Gui]

57 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

And in order to attend this temple they must give up 10% of their income, so poor people are becoming poorer, not quite the claim that tithing ends poverty cycles.  

You said you have no contact with them. How do  you know they are becoming poorer? How do you presume to speak for them? 

[rongo]

Ouagadoughou:

It comes down to individuals and their experience. Have you experienced tangible miracles in your life, and do you believe in miracles? If the answer to that is no, then no amount of evidence will convince you. Even empirical evidence. 

On the other hand, if a poor person heard this counsel, and decided to lay it on the line and test it, then they will have done their own test that is 100% valid for them. Maybe it doesn't work, it's a bunch of baloney, and their cycle of poverty continues. Or, maybe testing it and paying a full tithing no matter what does, indeed, result in their breaking the poverty cycle. When God's messengers lay it on the line like this, they give people a choice. They can test it and see if the seed grows, or if it doesn't, and the result (either way) will impact them going forward. But people have to take the first step of faith in order to test it and see. Many poor people in impoverished nations testify that they have been blessed, spiritually and temporally, such that they don't have room to receive it. 

My testimony only has an impact inasmuch and to the extent that the Spirit testifies to others. My family has seen this in our lives --- in spades. We have had tangible, back-of-the-Ensign miracles because we pay tithing, but we have also had the Spirit and confidence that, come what may, we have good standing with God and are keeping our covenants. Skeptics will never be able to convince our children that these types of miracles aren't true or don't happen, because they lived it with us. They know of many of the miracles that we have had in our lives.

An important principle is taught in Journal of Discourses by Heber C. Kimball, and that is that God's math in blessing us doesn't operate on the principle of 2+2=4. That is, the way God blesses us, or the way that he "delivers," often can't be logically and mathematically derived on paper. So, when paying tithing looks on paper like it will be catastrophic (I used the expression "feeling like you're jumping off a cliff" in counseling with a man about paying tithing, and he thought it was an apt description. This is someone who served a mission and was the dean of admissions at an elite Eastern University, too, but he didn't have the faith to pay his tithing), but people try it anyway in faith, and things work out (sometimes logically, but often not).

When Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball went on their mission to England, they were given $5.00, and they made their way to New York. Along the way, they paid for food and lodging, and they marveled that they never ran out. When they got to New York, they had $82.50 (Heber C. believed that angels had physically put it in his pocket, while Brigham Young speculated that God had commanded the elements to transport and combine in his pocket). Things like this really happen (they have happened to me and my family), and when skeptics rail on the Church for teaching the bold doctrine of tithing, we just shake our heads. O they of little faith! For a God who we personally and experientially know can manipulate and command space, time, and the elements, prophesying to the poor that tithing will end their cycle of poverty is no leap at all. 

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

If it's not a magic process then why is the prophet himself claiming and telling people that it ends poverty cycles?  If paying tithing did, in fact, end poverty cycles, then why aren't other world organizations that fight poverty use and/or implement it (tithing) as a vital tool?  Because it doesn't help end poverty cycles in any way.  Conversely, tithing is only making poor members even poorer; they don't get that money back.  You can claim they get "spiritual benefits," but not monetary benefits.  

I can claim that both happen and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

So how can the President Nelson make that judgement/statement if it is based on faith, spiritual blessings, and "anecdotal evidence."  What I am bringing into question is his claim that tithing ends poverty cycles (nothing to do with a testimony or the spiritual side of it). It's like telling people that eating less will help end hunger...and he has NO evidence support his claim.  

And you have no evidence that those who faithfully pay tithing continue in poverty.

[Avatar4321]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think you get the whole “prophet” thing.

Also Seer thing