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Trib Article Re: Women's Session

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8 hours ago, sheilauk said:
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Instead, the purpose of General Conference has been for the leaders of the Church to address the "entire body of the Church.

-Smac

The women being referred to are leaders of the Church. 

I acknowledge that.  But so are the members of the First Presidency.  The notion that they were interloping/trespassing in the Women's Session is, I think, very strange.

Thanks,

-Smac

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20 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Society" did not choose the Twelve Apostles.  Jesus Christ did.

So are you suggesting that Jesus Christ was "xenophobic and sexist?"

Thanks,

-Smac

Of course society chooses. It is bizarre to think otherwise, we certainly use society to explain the priesthood ban. 

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25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I acknowledge that.  But so are the members of the First Presidency.  The notion that they were interloping/trespassing in the Women's Session is, I think, very strange.

Thanks,

-Smac

It’s not a good sign when an opinion can only stand by using red herrings or strawmen to survive. 

Why not add crashing the conference or forcing themselves on the women....So much irrelevant hyperbole, so little time, eh?

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I have a question....and okay ...so I ask some humdingers sometimes...but...if you have a General Relief Society President...authoritively over all the RS/women in an entire church....does a deacon/teacher have any authority over her?  

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10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have a question....and okay ...so I ask some humdingers sometimes...but...if you have a General Relief Society President...authoritively over all the RS/women in an entire church....does a deacon/teacher have any authority over her?  

Not in my house. 

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7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have a question....and okay ...so I ask some humdingers sometimes...but...if you have a General Relief Society President...authoritively over all the RS/women in an entire church....does a deacon/teacher have any authority over her?  

In real life, no. If you see priesthood ordination as the ultimate control, then technically they can do a couple of things their mothers can’t. But to see a boy trying to exert his ordination into authority over women would be laughable, not to mention disrespectful and arrogant. 

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18 minutes ago, juliann said:
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"Society" did not choose the Twelve Apostles.  Jesus Christ did.

So are you suggesting that Jesus Christ was "xenophobic and sexist?"

Thanks,

-Smac

Of course society chooses.

From Matthew 4:

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18 ¶ And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you bfishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.
21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

From Luke 6:

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13 ¶ And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphæus, and Simon called Zelotes,
16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

"Society" did not choose these men.  Jesus Christ did.

18 minutes ago, juliann said:

It is bizarre to think otherwise,

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about your claim, particularly given the foregoing scriptures.

"And when it was day, he [Jesus] called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles."

They were not elected by "society."  They were chosen by Jesus Christ.

18 minutes ago, juliann said:

we certainly use society to explain the priesthood ban. 

We use prejudice arising from societal norms of the day as a theory to explain the priesthood ban.

FWIW, it's a theory (or party of a theory) I presently think is the most likely explanation for the priesthood ban.

But do we use "prejudice arising from societal norms of the day" to explain why Jesus Christ chose twelve Jewish men to be His apostles?

I think not.

Thanks,

-Smac

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7 minutes ago, juliann said:

In real life, no. If you see priesthood ordination as the ultimate control, then technically they can do a couple of things their mothers can’t. But to see a boy trying to exert his ordination into authority over women would be laughable, not to mention disrespectful and arrogant. 

Agreed.

I was thinking of this the other day. According to the handbook, there is a hierarchy of presiding authority for church meetings like Sacrament Meeting. IIRC- While it would be a very strange scene, a young man could preside over sacrament meeting should all other priesthood holders be absent, but a woman wouldn't. It's crazy.

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30 minutes ago, juliann said:
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I acknowledge that.  But so are the members of the First Presidency.  The notion that they were interloping/trespassing in the Women's Session is, I think, very strange.

Thanks,

-Smac

It’s not a good sign when an opinion can only stand by using red herrings or strawmen to survive. 

Not sure what this means.

Quote

Why not add crashing the conference or forcing themselves on the women....So much irrelevant hyperbole, so little time, eh?

I'm not disparaging the First Presidency for presuming to speak during the Women's Session.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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22 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I have a question....and okay ...so I ask some humdingers sometimes...but...if you have a General Relief Society President...authoritively over all the RS/women in an entire church....does a deacon/teacher have any authority over her?  

By "authority over her" I assume you mean authority to preside (in a meeting).  Is that correct?

As I understand it, Deacons and Teachers lack authority to preside in any way except in their ward-level quorums.

A priest, on the other hand, has authority "to preside at meetings when no elder is present" (see also here).

Thanks,

-Smac

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25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not disparaging the First Presidency for presuming to speak during the Women's Session.

Who is "disparaging the First Presidency" here?

I've seen no one do that.  Can you quote the post where someone did that?

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Disparage:

To regard or represent as being of little worth.

 

 

Edited by ALarson
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20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

By "authority over her" I assume you mean authority to preside (in a meeting).  Is that correct?

As I understand it, Deacons and Teachers lack authority to preside in any way except in their ward-level quorums.

A priest, on the other hand, has authority "to preside at meetings when no elder is present" (see also here).

Thanks,

-Smac

I meant any kind of authority...can a deacon, teacher, priest tell her that he has been inspired by a priesthood to give his opinion..thoughts...and relinquish anything that she has been sustained  with.  Not just preside but rather an elective order of what authority she has?  I know this does not make sense...bult none if it makes sense. 

Edited by Jeanne

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1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I have a question....and okay ...so I ask some humdingers sometimes...but...if you have a General Relief Society President...authoritively over all the RS/women in an entire church....does a deacon/teacher have any authority over her?  

Pretty sure that was a yes at one time.😣 Or heard it discussed as a possibility. And 99.99% sure the LDS women would laugh their head off at their youngster or preteen saying they have authority.

But I guess in some households it might have been common for the father to put his son in charge, to what degree, I'm unsure of. Or their father's would put them as the head of the household in the father's absence.

Which always bothered me because I feel the mom should be in charge. But maybe these deacons are in training. 😉

Edited by Tacenda

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Just now, Jeanne said:
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By "authority over her" I assume you mean authority to preside (in a meeting).  Is that correct?

As I understand it, Deacons and Teachers lack authority to preside in any way except in their ward-level quorums.

A priest, on the other hand, has authority "to preside at meetings when no elder is present" (see also here).

I meant any kind of authority...can a deacon, teacher, priest tell her that he has been inspired by a priesthood to give his opinion..thoughts...and relinquish anything that she has been sustained  with.  

I'm not sure I understand the question.  "Priesthood" has the following functions:

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Joseph Smith defined priesthood as "an everlasting principle, [which has] existed with God from eternity, and will to eternity, without beginning of days or end of years,…holding the keys of power and blessings. In fact, [the Melchizedek] Priesthood is a perfect law of theocracy" (TPJS, pp. 157, 322). It is the power and authority by which The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is organized and directed.

The word "priesthood" has several meanings for Latter-day Saints:

1. Priesthood is power, the power of God, a vital source of eternal strength and energy delegated to men to act in all things for the well-being of mankind, both in the world and out of it (DS 3:80; Romney, p. 43).

2. Priesthood is authority, the exclusive right to act in the name of God as his authorized agents and to perform ordinances for the purpose of opening certain spiritual blessings to all individuals.

3. Priesthood is the right and responsibility to preside within the organizational structure of the Church, but only in a manner consistent with the agency of others.

4. Sometimes the word priesthood is used to refer to the men of the Church in general (as in "the priesthood will meet in the chapel").

Priesthood power may be exercised only under the direction of the one holding the right, or keys, to authorize its use.

I have a hard time conceptualizing a priesthood holder feasibly claiming "priesthood authority" to obtain revelation on behalf of a person not within his stewardship.

"Stewardship" can have a "priesthood" facet, but not necessarily.  Revelation can come to me or to my wife (or both) as pertaining to each other and to our children.  This would be within our stewardship.

I don't think a priest, solely by virtue of holding the priesthood, has any stewardship over any woman.  I just don't think that's the way it works.  The same holds for any other priesthood holder.  It's a question of keys, I think.  

So "can a deacon, teacher, priest tell her that he has been inspired by a priesthood to give his opinion..thoughts...and relinquish anything that she has been sustained  with?"  No, I don't think so.

Thanks,

-Smac

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30 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I meant any kind of authority...can a deacon, teacher, priest tell her that he has been inspired by a priesthood to give his opinion..thoughts...and relinquish anything that she has been sustained  with.  Not just preside but rather an elective order of what authority she has?  I know this does not make sense...bult none if it makes sense. 

No, he can't.

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28 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I meant any kind of authority...can a deacon, teacher, priest tell her that he has been inspired by a priesthood to give his opinion..thoughts...and relinquish anything that she has been sustained  with.  Not just preside but rather an elective order of what authority she has?  I know this does not make sense...bult none if it makes sense. 

On the ward level the bishop, or his counselors in his place, is the only priesthood holder who has stewardship over the relief society.

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I have a hard time conceptualizing a priesthood holder feasibly claiming "priesthood authority" to obtain revelation on behalf of a person not within his stewardship.

When I hear about it happening it's almost exclusively in the realm of 'the Spirit told me we are supposed to get married' kind of thing.  That seems to happen surprisingly often though, which is just weird.

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10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When I hear about it happening it's almost exclusively in the realm of 'the Spirit told me we are supposed to get married' kind of thing.  That seems to happen surprisingly often though, which is just weird.

#BYUPickupLines

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Pretty sure that was a yes at one time.😣 Or heard it discussed as a possibility. And 99.99% sure the LDS women would laugh their head off at their youngster or preteen saying they have authority.

But I guess in some households it might have been common for the father to put his son in charge, to what degree, I'm unsure of. Or their father's would put them as the head of the household in the father's absence.

Which always bothered me because I feel the mom should be in charge. But maybe these deacons are in training. 😉

The whole "you're the man of the house now" thing is a more part of the greater culture, imo, than Latter-day Saint.  All you have to do is watch soppy movies and TV that has the dad going off to war or dying.

Edited by Calm
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36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When I hear about it happening it's almost exclusively in the realm of 'the Spirit told me we are supposed to get married' kind of thing.  That seems to happen surprisingly often though, which is just weird.

Yes.  This happened to my mom.  Twice.  But that was in the 60s.  Haven't ever heard of this being a recent thing, tho.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

When I hear about it happening it's almost exclusively in the realm of 'the Spirit told me we are supposed to get married' kind of thing.  That seems to happen surprisingly often though, which is just weird.

 

54 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  This happened to my mom.  Twice.  But that was in the 60s.  Haven't ever heard of this being a recent thing, tho.

I think occasionally it can happen from the other direction, i. e.  a woman telling it to a man. Probably not as often though. 

Some may misinterpret the meaning of a spiritual prompting. The message might be that such and such a person would make a fine spouse. But the person still has her/his own agency in responding. 

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2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  This happened to my mom.  Twice.  But that was in the 60s.  Haven't ever heard of this being a recent thing, tho.

This happened with me...my son was a Teacher and was told that he was now head of our family.  Ugh...I told him we would all take care of each other.

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27 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This happened with me...my son was a Teacher and was told that he was now head of our family.  Ugh...I told him we would all take care of each other.

I think that’s more a result of the American culture of earlier decades than being specific to members of the church or our beliefs about priesthood, though our beliefs about priesthood and presiding no doubt served as justification for continuing the tradition for many members. 

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