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Muslim crime families in Germany

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

But one of the basic premises of the United States was to put that tribalism behind us and accept those who are different. We had a rough start focused mostly on just white Europeans can bring their problems. We had backlashes against it as early as the Alien and Sedition Acts. We slowly chipped them away. We freed the slaves, we invited the Chinese in to build our railroads and started letting people in from Asia generally. We codified equality into law So it was expressed instead of just being a vague principle. It is a bold experiment. It is a dangerous and scary experiment but it is worth it. Reactionaries paranoid about immigration are basically saying that the experiment is a failure and will not work. That we need to go back to the old tribalistic ways or we are doomed.

There is a sad irony that those who want to wrap themselves in the American flag and tout American exceptionalism want to excise the source of that exceptionalism as a tumor.

 

Immigration is fine as long as people leave the baggage behind.  We can accept people that are "different" but everyone does need to agree on certain things.  They say American is a melting pot.  I would agree but that is one melting pot and not 5 or 10.  A melting pot is different people merging as one.  In the US we have been largely successful in terms of culture.  Our problems of division will be more political and financial  Europe is a different story.  Europe is filled with many different and distinct cultures and histories.  They have had a hard time getting along but over time have worked things out.  Now import African and Middle East culture in and this is more like trying to mix oil and water.  Low levels of immigration from Africa and the Middle East will not cause big problems in European countries.  The levels they are getting and will get in the future is going to cause big problems.  What is happening in Europe right now was predicable and what will happen in the future if it continues is also predictable. 

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53 minutes ago, rongo said:

Okay. Where are you claiming that the 17% of the electorate came from? 

Given that they're part of a far right movement, I'd guess the far right. Just a guess.

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7 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Immigration is fine as long as people leave the baggage behind.  We can accept people that are "different" but everyone does need to agree on certain things.  They say American is a melting pot.  I would agree but that is one melting pot and not 5 or 10.  A melting pot is different people merging as one.  In the US we have been largely successful in terms of culture.  Our problems of division will be more political and financial  Europe is a different story.  Europe is filled with many different and distinct cultures and histories.  They have had a hard time getting along but over time have worked things out.  Now import African and Middle East culture in and this is more like trying to mix oil and water.  Low levels of immigration from Africa and the Middle East will not cause big problems in European countries.  The levels they are getting and will get in the future is going to cause big problems.  What is happening in Europe right now was predicable and what will happen in the future if it continues is also predictable. 

Historically they do not leave their baggage behind and we survive anyways. Starting with the Europeans who showed up and let the natives join in with our colonial wars all the way to the divided cities of the 1800s with the Irish and the Germans and everyone else having their own neighborhoods. It healed in time.

Demanding this kind of homogeneity now immediately from immigrants seems ridiculous and smacks of racism as it is almost exclusively targeted at Hispanics, Middle Easterners, and Africans and not at Asian and Caucasian immigrants.

That being said I am okay with booting people who are blatantly opposed to the core values of democracy like fascists but I am not sure where to send them as they are almost all native born. Can we take some US island and turn it into a modern version of colonial Australia or something and send them all there?

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2 hours ago, Gray said:

Citation still not found.

According to this analysis of last year's elections, AfD gained 1.05 million former CDU voters; another 470,000 from the SPD; another 400,000 from the Leftists; and 40,000 from FDP.

"Unter den Parteien verlor die CDU mit 1,05 Millionen Stimmen die meisten Wähler an die AfD. Von der SPD wanderten rund 470.000 Stimmen zur AfD, von der Linken rund 400.000 und von der FDP rund 40.000 Menschen."

Edited by Okrahomer
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2 hours ago, Gray said:

Given that they're part of a far right movement, I'd guess the far right. Just a guess.

What do you think about Okrahomer's post, Gray? Any response to that?

That's the hot issue in Germany. It isn't, "Holy cow, we have budding fascism among us!," it's "Holy cow, people across the spectrum are turning to the right in many ways." Primarily from the two main parties, the CDU and SPD, but others as well. And, even if they don't become far-right, there are millions more who are more to the right now than before. 

Germany has a coalition government, which means that the party that wins needs to cobble together a coalition to put them over the halfway mark. The sharp rise in the AfD and the steep declines in the CDU and SPD (the decline was even sharper in the SPD, the more liberal party), means that whoever governs is going to have to have AfD's support. 

Even if SPD members don't become AfD, they are sliding more to the right and may be CDU. Or (and which also has an effect) not vote at all because of unhappiness, dissatisfaction, etc. That shows up in declines in votes, rather than "switching party" numbers. 

Also, this trend right-ward isn't just in the U.S. and Germany. It's popping up in many other countries as well. Much of it has to do with "law and order" concerns, economy, and immigration.

Edited by rongo

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So I am done discussing in good faith with you on this topic. Going to stick to mockery from here on out.

Done discussing in good faith and sticking to mockery? That's all you ever contributed here. 

I won't press you on backing up any of your claims. People can make up their own minds about that. 

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1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

According to this analysis of last year's elections, AfD gained 1.05 million former CDU voters; another 470,000 from the SPD; another 400,000 from the Leftists; and 40,000 from FDP.

"Unter den Parteien verlor die CDU mit 1,05 Millionen Stimmen die meisten Wähler an die AfD. Von der SPD wanderten rund 470.000 Stimmen zur AfD, von der Linken rund 400.000 und von der FDP rund 40.000 Menschen."

This is an important point. The original emergence of the AfD was mostly right-wing. Last year's elections represented *gains* comprised of, surprisingly, SPD, and more left-wing parties. Which is pretty astonishing, but it illustrates how the immigration and crime problem can make for strange bedfellows.

No, I don't expect the Green Party to ever move to the right . . . ;) 

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1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

According to this analysis of last year's elections, AfD gained 1.05 million former CDU voters; another 470,000 from the SPD; another 400,000 from the Leftists; and 40,000 from FDP.

"Unter den Parteien verlor die CDU mit 1,05 Millionen Stimmen die meisten Wähler an die AfD. Von der SPD wanderten rund 470.000 Stimmen zur AfD, von der Linken rund 400.000 und von der FDP rund 40.000 Menschen."

CDU is center right, the others are seem to be left, assuming your source is accurate.

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52 minutes ago, rongo said:

What do you think about Okrahomer's post, Gray? Any response to that?

That's the hot issue in Germany. It isn't, "Holy cow, we have budding fascism among us!," it's "Holy cow, people across the spectrum are turning to the right in many ways." Primarily from the two main parties, the CDU and SPD, but others as well. And, even if they don't become far-right, there are millions more who are more to the right now than before. 

Germany has a coalition government, which means that the party that wins needs to cobble together a coalition to put them over the halfway mark. The sharp rise in the AfD and the steep declines in the CDU and SPD (the decline was even sharper in the SPD, the more liberal party), means that whoever governs is going to have to have AfD's support. 

Even if SPD members don't become AfD, they are sliding more to the right and may be CDU. Or (and which also has an effect) not vote at all because of unhappiness, dissatisfaction, etc. That shows up in declines in votes, rather than "switching party" numbers. 

Also, this trend right-ward isn't just in the U.S. and Germany. It's popping up in many other countries as well. Much of it has to do with "law and order" concerns, economy, and immigration.

Most converts coming from the right wing, but some from the left, according to his source. The siren song of fascism, no doubt aided by the usual active measures.

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

CDU is center right, the others are seem to be left, assuming your source is accurate.

The source cited in the article is ARD, one of Germany's oldest and largest broadcasters.  

Edit to add:  ARD's data was updated in this article from Welt in November 2017.  The article indicates that SPD crossover vote was actually 500,000;; but more surprising is that 40,000 Green Party members also crossed over to AfD.

2nd Edit to add:  Perhaps encouraging is the second graphic in the updated report:  55% of AfD members do not believe AfD has done enough to distance itself from extreme right positions.  What I'm getting from all of this is that a majority of AfD voters are somewhat soft in their allegiance.  They are currently voting for AfD out of pure protest.  If we saw AfD careening further into the extreme right, I think we'd see a massive exit back toward the establishment.

 

Edited by Okrahomer
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46 minutes ago, Gray said:

As I suspected, the AfD, like many other far right/white supremacist/fascist movements across the globe, is being promoted by Russian active measures:

https://www.politico.eu/article/russian-botnet-promotes-far-right-messages-in-german-election/

 

 

Pretty much goes without saying at this point. Stalin must be spinning in his grave that his successor is supporting the current equivalent of Nazis.

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

Done discussing in good faith and sticking to mockery? That's all you ever contributed here. 

I won't press you on backing up any of your claims. People can make up their own minds about that. 

No, I tried. A futile effort but I am a giving person so I tried. I just do not understand why people can’t be proud of their beliefs. If you want to support fascists in a party that attracts all the fascists at least show some pride in it instead of acting like you are ashamed.

Be proud:

fPLgGR9h.jpg

 

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2 hours ago, rongo said:

Also, this trend right-ward isn't just in the U.S. and Germany. It's popping up in many other countries as well. Much of it has to do with "law and order" concerns, economy, and immigration.

Law and Order, the old dog whistle phrase used to show that you will keep those filthy minorities in their place. Economy, we will keep those filthy minorities from stealing your jobs. Immigration, we will keep those filthy minorities from lowering your property values.

What an inspiring platform.........

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1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

The source cited in the article is ARD, one of Germany's oldest and largest broadcasters.  

Edit to add:  ARD's data was updated in this article from Welt in November 2017.  The article indicates that SPD crossover vote was actually 500,000;; but more surprising is that 40,000 Green Party members also crossed over to AfD.

2nd Edit to add:  Perhaps encouraging is the second graphic in the updated report:  55% of AfD members do not believe AfD has done enough to distance itself from extreme right positions.  What I'm getting from all of this is that a majority of AfD voters are somewhat soft in their allegiance.  They are currently voting for AfD out of pure protest.  If we saw AfD careening further into the extreme right, I think we'd see a massive exit back toward the establishment.

That's an important point as well. It is remarkable that AfD is drawing support and numbers from people who are not right-wing. As you mentioned, these people won't tolerate what reactionaries are railing against --- and if these doomsday policies and predictions do end up coming to pass, then these "soft" supporters will abandon AfD and it will collapse. 

I think the people pooh-poohing "law and order" concerns as "dog-whistle for racism" grossly underestimate the power that violent crime can have on families --- especially when it happens in front of them and society is completely not used to that. That can turn any Paul Kersey (Charles Bronson) into a Death Wish vigilante. 

I think the same underestimation is evident among those who rage about President Trump's election. I didn't vote for Trump, but I understand the phenomenon behind his election and what drives that. A lot of people who can't stand him voted for him because of a reaction against how things are. 

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24 minutes ago, rongo said:

That's an important point as well. It is remarkable that AfD is drawing support and numbers from people who are not right-wing. As you mentioned, these people won't tolerate what reactionaries are railing against --- and if these doomsday policies and predictions do end up coming to pass, then these "soft" supporters will abandon AfD and it will collapse. 

I think the people pooh-poohing "law and order" concerns as "dog-whistle for racism" grossly underestimate the power that violent crime can have on families --- especially when it happens in front of them and society is completely not used to that. That can turn any Paul Kersey (Charles Bronson) into a Death Wish vigilante. 

I think the same underestimation is evident among those who rage about President Trump's election. I didn't vote for Trump, but I understand the phenomenon behind his election and what drives that. A lot of people who can't stand him voted for him because of a reaction against how things are. 

Yet in the United States and Germany the numbers from violent crime have been falling. Why is everyone so scared now? It is almost as if fear is being fomented irrationally....a little like how the Jews were unfairly villified in Germany in the 30’s perhaps?

And the “Law and Order” dog whistle is a well established code, particularly in the US south to show support for racism without being able to be called on it. People who do not want to be affiliated with it should use a different phrase. I literally shuddered the first time I heard Trump using it.

Edited by The Nehor

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27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And the “Law and Order” dog whistle is a well established code, particularly in the US south to show support for racism without being able to be called on it. People who do not want to be affiliated with it should use a different phrase. I literally shuddered the first time I heard Trump using it.

So if I wanted to actually refer to “Law and Order”, what new phrase needs to be used to avoid the dog whistle?  I confess I get behind all the latest codes and various whistles.

How about “Command and Sequence”?  Kind of has a nice diverse ring to it.

Edited by SteveO

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26 minutes ago, SteveO said:

So if I wanted to actually refer to “Law and Order”, what new phrase needs to be used to avoid the dog whistle?  I confess I get behind all the latest codes and various whistles.

How about “Command and Sequence”?  Kind of has a nice diverse ring to it.

A little confusing but I think the English language can adapt to it.

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48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yet in the United States and Germany the numbers from violent crime have been falling. Why is everyone so scared now?

1) This depends entirely upon individual anecdotal experience. Violent crime certainly hasn't been falling in Chicago or Baltimore. If you live there (I'm from Chicago), it is perfectly understandable to have a "something needs to be done about this!" mindset, no matter how many sociologists tell you violent crime is actually declining and isn't really that bad. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

https://www.yahoo.com/news/baltimore-puts-230-desk-officers-streets-murders-mount-131536561.html

This is the phenomenon in Germany: horror and outrage and rising crime in areas (even if not in the whole country). 

It is almost as if fear is being fomented irrationally....a little like how the Jews were unfairly villified in Germany in the 30’s perhaps?

No, nothing like that. There are a lot of differences between how Jews were unfairly villified in Germany in the 30s and concerns about violent crime and violent crime syndicates in 2018 Germany. Did you actually read the Wall St. Journal article in the OP?

And the “Law and Order” dog whistle is a well established code, particularly in the US south to show support for racism without being able to be called on it.

Only to liberals. CFR that it well-established outside of CNN or Politico. :) 

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26 minutes ago, rongo said:

1) This depends entirely upon individual anecdotal experience. Violent crime certainly hasn't been falling in Chicago or Baltimore. If you live there (I'm from Chicago), it is perfectly understandable to have a "something needs to be done about this!" mindset, no matter how many sociologists tell you violent crime is actually declining and isn't really that bad. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Chicago

https://www.yahoo.com/news/baltimore-puts-230-desk-officers-streets-murders-mount-131536561.html

This is the phenomenon in Germany: horror and outrage and rising crime in areas (even if not in the whole country). 

 

 

No, nothing like that. There are a lot of differences between how Jews were unfairly villified in Germany in the 30s and concerns about violent crime and violent crime syndicates in 2018 Germany. Did you actually read the Wall St. Journal article in the OP?

 

 

Only to liberals. CFR that it well-established outside of CNN or Politico. :) 

No, facts do not depend on individual anecdotal experience. If we have fallen that far we are doomed.

Your attempt to pain Baltimore and Chicago as the reason for a law and order shift is insane. You do realize both cities  opted for Clinton right? In Chicago she got over 80% of the vote. So no, people are not reacting to being in those dangerous cities to vote more to the Right.

No, the differences are minor. Both consist of a foreign minority. Both are characterized as a dire threat to society and seen as undermining nationalistic values. Both are blown out of all reasonable proportion.

It comes from Nixon who spoke forcefully on “law and order” in inner cities (keeping minorities in their place), opposing “forced busing” (code for leaving segregation in place), etc. For a brutally honest take on this listen to the audio of the Atwater interview where a Republican political strategist and one of their best operatives, at the time of the interview part of the Reagan administration, lays out the Southern strategy used earlier by Nixon, While he was not involved in it he had interacted a lot with the strategists of that era.

Seriously, find that audio. It is creepy how a dyed in the wool racist imagines himself to be race-blind. He also lays out the strategy used. The most famous line is:

You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

While it does not mention the “Law and Order” phrase directly the phrase was first popularized by Nixon and used much like the phrases “forced busing” to clearly say where he stood.

Thanks for making me dip into that crap again. Now I need to go take a shower and read the scriptures or look at pictures of puppies or watch videos of my nieces and nephews to get this garbage out of my system. You are welcome.

Edited by The Nehor

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10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, facts do not depend on individual anecdotal experience. If we have fallen that far we are doomed.

You're overreacting to this. I never said "facts" depend on anecdotal experience. Individual impressions do, though. That's why they're individual. What I am saying is that if individuals have the impression that crime is worse, then that is their impression. Regardless of how many sociologists tell them it's really not that bad. If you're in a war zone, then the fact that Alpine, Utah is not doesn't color your impression.

Your attempt to pain Baltimore and Chicago as the reason for a law and order shift is insane. You do realize both cities  opted for Clinton right? In Chicago she got over 80% of the vote. So no, people are not reacting to being in those dangerous cities to vote more to the Right.

You sure about that? I'm going to wait and see how the people of those and other cities react to increasing violent crime. Note: this doesn't mean I think they're going to vote Republican. It means that they will demand the things start being done to change the trend. 

Population demographics and psychology are very different in Baltimore/Chicago and Berlin. So is the existing political landscape. 

While it does not mention the “Law and Order” phrase directly the phrase was first popularized by Nixon and used much like the phrases “forced busing” to clearly say where he stood.

You definitely have a minority view among active LDS that the phrase "law and order" is dog-whistle shorthand for racism, xenophobia, fascism, etc. Most people really do understand "law and order" under the expression "law and order."

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Just curious - does the board rule prohibiting political threads only apply to U.S. politics? German politics are okay?  Just checking....

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