Words of Joseph Smith

[SettingDogStar]

As I was giving some more study to The Words of Joseph Smith I ran across summaries with difficult wording. As we know most of his speeches and such were second hand accounts and oft either missed or added information. Like any of us certain aspects of what the Prophet was saying imprinted differently on each hearer and thus we have to combine each account to get a better view of the original intent. However I ran across this tidbit of information and I was curious if you could help me decipher what it meant. It was from the same speech that we get D&C 130:22 from but with some extra lines. This version is from the McIntire Minute Book; 

Quote

Subject 1st on the Gospel By father Cole 2 he Said that Some thought that He Difered from president Smith Concerning the time of the Giving of the Holy Ghost—as teach that all men receive the Holy Ghost before Baptizem 3—Joseph said we Do not take Notice of things as they Read them—or they might know things as they Read them—he quotes rather 2d Repent & be Baptized &c—& ye Shall Receive the Gift of the Holly Ghost—Now said he (taking up his Cap & presenting to Prd Law) 4 in Giveing you this Gift is not giving myself. However there is a prist-Hood with the Holy Ghost & Key —the Holy Ghost over shadows you & witness unto you of the authority & the Gifts of the Holly Ghost —he said was the provence of the Father to preside as the Chief or President—Jesus as the Mediator & Holy Ghost as the testator or witness 5—the Son Had a Tabernicle & so had the father 6 But the Holly Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernicle the Great God has a name By wich He will be Called which is Ahman 7—also in asking have Referance to a personage Like Adam for God made Adam Just in his own Image Now this a key for you to know how to ask & obtain

 

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

As I was giving some more study to The Words of Joseph Smith I ran across summaries with difficult wording. As we know most of his speeches and such were second hand accounts and oft either missed or added information. Like any of us certain aspects of what the Prophet was saying imprinted differently on each hearer and thus we have to combine each account to get a better view of the original intent. However I ran across this tidbit of information and I was curious if you could help me decipher what it meant. It was from the same speech that we get D&C 130:22 from but with some extra lines. This version is from the McIntire Minute Book; 

 

I for one am very glad that the BIBLE (even in King James form) is far more easier to comprehend. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

As I was giving some more study to The Words of Joseph Smith I ran across summaries with difficult wording. As we know most of his speeches and such were second hand accounts and oft either missed or added information. Like any of us certain aspects of what the Prophet was saying imprinted differently on each hearer and thus we have to combine each account to get a better view of the original intent. However I ran across this tidbit of information and I was curious if you could help me decipher what it meant. It was from the same speech that we get D&C 130:22 from but with some extra lines. This version is from the McIntire Minute Book; ..............

Is there something in particular which is giving you trouble?

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I for one am very glad that the BIBLE (even in King James form) is far more easier to comprehend. 

And I'm glad the Holy Spirit guides is through all the Words spoken of by prophets to enlighten our minds and lead us to Christ.

He is teaching largely about the Holy Ghost. How the gift of.The Holy Ghost comes after repentance baptism according to the scriptures though he can give a witness to men before hand.

Then He goes on to teach about some characteristics of the Godhead

Edited October 18, 2018 by Avatar4321

[CV75]

9 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

As I was giving some more study to The Words of Joseph Smith I ran across summaries with difficult wording. As we know most of his speeches and such were second hand accounts and oft either missed or added information. Like any of us certain aspects of what the Prophet was saying imprinted differently on each hearer and thus we have to combine each account to get a better view of the original intent. However I ran across this tidbit of information and I was curious if you could help me decipher what it meant. It was from the same speech that we get D&C 130:22 from but with some extra lines. This version is from the McIntire Minute Book; 

 

This is from the notes taken by an ancestor, Abiah Turner:

 

[Tacenda]

I think Joseph could have been drinking while writing this, and I'm not being sarcastic. He did drink and no-one on this board should deny that fact.

[SettingDogStar]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Is there something in particular which is giving you trouble?

It just seemed very jumbled together, like someone was taking notes while attempting to listen at the same time. Mostly I was intrigued by the last two sentences.

[SettingDogStar]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think Joseph could have been drinking while writing this, and I'm not being sarcastic. He did drink and no-one on this board should deny that fact.

I mean he didn't write this but sure haha

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

It just seemed very jumbled together, like someone was taking notes while attempting to listen at the same time. Mostly I was intrigued by the last two sentences.

Well, of course, that is how notes are taken.  They tend to be incoherent or disordered, and some items are obviously missing, but you need to be more specific:  Are referring to "the Great God has a name By wich He will be Called which is Ahman 7—also in asking have Referance to a personage Like Adam for God made Adam Just in his own Image Now this a key for you to know how to ask & obtain"?

[Robert F. Smith]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think Joseph could have been drinking while writing this, and I'm not being sarcastic. He did drink and no-one on this board should deny that fact.

I am unaware of anyone denying that Joseph drank booze.  There was no rule against it in his time. Jesus also drank wine.  So what?

[SettingDogStar]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, of course, that is how notes are taken.  They tend to be incoherent or disordered, and some items are obviously missing, but you need to be more specific:  Are referring to "the Great God has a name By wich He will be Called which is Ahman 7—also in asking have Referance to a personage Like Adam for God made Adam Just in his own Image Now this a key for you to know how to ask & obtain"?

Yes those are the lines! Those are just the two that popped out since I hadn't heard them before. I'm not sure if its even important information but it was different from the other accounts.

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think Joseph could have been drinking while writing this, and I'm not being sarcastic. He did drink and no-one on this board should deny that fact.

You understand that this is from notes written by someone else and not written by Joseph Smith.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Yes those are the lines! Those are just the two that popped out since I hadn't heard them before. I'm not sure if its even important information but it was different from the other accounts.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says:

Quote

Ahman is twice mentioned as one of the names of God in the Doctrine and Covenants. In each instance, Jesus Christ is called Son Ahman, suggesting Son God and son of Ahman (D&C 78:20;95:17). Orson Pratt, an apostle, suggested that this was one of the names of God in the pure language (JD 2:342; cf. Zeph. 3:9; see Adamic Language).

Ahman is also an element of the place-name Adam-ondi-Ahman, Missouri, where the Lord visited Adam and "administered comfort" to him and where Adam prophesied concerning "whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation" (D&C 107:53-57; cf. D&C 78:15-16). Adam lived in the region of Adam-ondi-Ahman (D&C 117:8), and prophecy anticipates a future visit of Adam at this place (D&C 116:1; cf. Dan. 7:13).  http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Ahman .

A different source sayst that 

Quote

. . . the Joseph Smith Papers website points out that Ahman was originally spelled Awmen and later changed to Awman. It also appears elsewhere as Aw-man and Ah man.

McConkie connects the “Pure Language” with the “language of Adam” spoken of in Moses 6:57 and concludes that Ahman means “Man of Holiness” and refers to Heavenly Father.  https://motleyvision.org/2012/05/11/defining-ahman/ .

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You understand that this is from notes written by someone else and not written by Joseph Smith.

Ah, I see. Of course, makes perfect sense now. Someone taking notes while he's speaking, totally how I take notes and then go back and redo them so I can comprehend them later. I guess I misunderstood and thought this was Joseph writing this down. And it reminded me of my brother when he texts and is drunk. 

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am unaware of anyone denying that Joseph drank booze.  There was no rule against it in his time. Jesus also drank wine.  So what?

You'd be surprised, but that's not lifers on the board.

[Avatar4321]

26 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Yes those are the lines! Those are just the two that popped out since I hadn't heard them before. I'm not sure if its even important information but it was different from the other accounts.

A key to know to how to ask as obtain seems important but without the context and exact wording it’s impossible to determine exactly what he meant

[CV75]

54 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Yes those are the lines! Those are just the two that popped out since I hadn't heard them before. I'm not sure if its even important information but it was different from the other accounts.

When Adam prayed, He addressed an actual Personage, the same Who first called to him, and thus taught him to communicate in faith* (Moses 4:15, Genesis 3:9). Adam's prayers were answered because he followed this key (see Moses 5 for how this works; verses 4 and 16 especially focus on addressing God).

* Because they were now separated, God had to call out to Adam in faith that he would respond though hidden. We do the same thing now when we pray to God.

[RevTestament]

44 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

. . . the Joseph Smith Papers website points out that Ahman was originally spelled Awmen and later changed to Awman. It also appears elsewhere as Aw-man and Ah man.

McConkie connects the “Pure Language” with the “language of Adam” spoken of in Moses 6:57 and concludes that Ahman means “Man of Holiness” and refers to Heavenly Father.  https://motleyvision.org/2012/05/11/defining-ahman/ .

I suspected that the name is Sumerian, which I believe was the language of Adam. If so, I concluded that the name could mean "Companion in the Word" and referred to the Son. Our scriptures do refer to the Son, Ahman, so I don't know how McKonkie concluded it referred to the Father. I drew this conclusion from the two syllable sounds: close speech for Ah(spittle), and companion for man. I have no idea how McKonkie would have gotten the meaning "man of holiness" from an unknown language. I guess he felt inspired or something.

[SettingDogStar]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

When Adam prayed, He addressed an actual Personage, the same Who first called to him, and thus taught him to communicate in faith* (Moses 4:15, Genesis 3:9). Adam's prayers were answered because he followed this key (see Moses 5 for how this works; verses 4 and 16 especially focus on addressing God).

* Because they were now separated, God had to call out to Adam in faith that he would respond though hidden. We do the same thing now when we pray to God.

That makes some sense, especially since God called Adam thrice. With God knowing all things He know that Adam would respond thus teaching Adam to do the reverse. In conjunction with Josephs reference to modeling Adam as a key to receiving, I ran across this quote as well 

Quote

"The grand key word was the first word Adam spoke and is a word of supplication...It is that key word to which the heavens is opened." (Joseph Smith, The Journals of William Clayton, June 15, 1844)

 

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I for one am very glad that the BIBLE (even in King James form) is far more easier to comprehend. 

Apparently it's not since you get it so wrong so often.

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

That makes some sense, especially since God called Adam thrice. With God knowing all things He know that Adam would respond thus teaching Adam to do the reverse. In conjunction with Josephs reference to modeling Adam as a key to receiving, I ran across this quote as well

Where "supplication" is mentioned, it would seem to be the first word spoken upon leaving the Garden: "Help," which also seems to be an apt name for God, and given Eve's role as "an help meet", may offer a nice way to conceptualize how God is organized by marriage.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

When Adam prayed, He addressed an actual Personage, the same Who first called to him, and thus taught him to communicate in faith* (Moses 4:15, Genesis 3:9). Adam's prayers were answered because he followed this key (see Moses 5 for how this works; verses 4 and 16 especially focus on addressing God).

* Because they were now separated, God had to call out to Adam in faith that he would respond though hidden. We do the same thing now when we pray to God.

Except we don't completely because we no longer follow his instruction as Joseph restored/revealed and references in the quote below.

56 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

That makes some sense, especially since God called Adam thrice. With God knowing all things He know that Adam would respond thus teaching Adam to do the reverse. In conjunction with Josephs reference to modeling Adam as a key to receiving, I ran across this quote as well 

Quote

"The grand key word was the first word Adam spoke and is a word of supplication...It is that key word to which the heavens is opened." (Joseph Smith, The Journals of William Clayton, June 15, 1844)

 

No key word, no fully open heavens.  Prayers are answered but in a more limited scope.

[SettingDogStar]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except we don't completely because we no longer follow his instruction as Joseph restored/revealed and references in the quote below.

No key word, no fully open heavens.  Prayers are answered but in a more limited scope.

Part of the classic 1990s changes. Though I I'm pretty sure I know why some changes occurred, I don't have a reason for that specific one. I'm sure there's an explanation of some form.

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except we don't completely because we no longer follow his instruction as Joseph restored/revealed and references in the quote below.

No key word, no fully open heavens.  Prayers are answered but in a more limited scope.

Just a thought: According to King Benjamin (Mosiah 5), in mortality the key word in our language translates into two (Jesus Christ). That is the word / name placed upon all the Father’s children by virtue of His Son’s atonement, the name we willingly assume through covenant, and the name by which He calls us, and we Him, thereafter. He is the Son Personage in whose name we call upon the Father Personage. Where He and the Father are One, and through prayer the supplicant becomes one with Them, it is effectively the same Word for each of the two Personages and the personage doing the praying. The roles of bringing forth spirits (i.e. Father) and atoning (i.e. Son) require the direct action of physical Personages, but The Holy Spirit’s various “agent” roles do not, only His spiritual action.

[LittleNipper]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Apparently it's not since you get it so wrong so often.

I not getting it wrong, you're just listening to others who you believe are always right.