JarMan Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, kllindley said: So try this blog post: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/joeljmiller/2011/10/why-mormons-arent-christians/#disqus_thread Also this article: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2012-01/are-mormons-christian-its-complicated Also this: https://www.gregtrimble.com/why-mormons-dont-believe-in-the-trinity/ This: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ More: https://www.christianity.com/christian-life/political-and-social-issues/mormonism-is-not-christianity-11628184.html I could go on for a very long time. In addition there have been many people over the years on this very forum who’ve made the Nicene Creed into an argument for the non-Christianity of Mormons. This may be a new concept to @Navidad but it is old hat to people who have been on this board for an appreciable length of time. Link to comment
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Hi Jane - not asking to debate - my mind just needs to know. You said "many places hold that I can't be considered "Christian" because I don't uphold the Nicene Athanasian Creed view of things. Accepting the Bible isn't good enough." What places? Which places? I am not ragging on you; I just am dying (not literally) to have someone on the board who believes that give me a little more information about who these people are who have told you that. What group are they from? Who do they represent? I don't uphold the Nicene Athanasian Creed view of things either because I have no idea and no interest about what is in the Athanasian Creed. I am much more interested in what LDS Christians believe. Are we back to the trinity? If that is it, then I understand that some Christians don't believe you can be Christian and not believe in the trinity. As you said it, for many that is doctrinal fact, but not because it is in a creed; because they believe it is in the Bible. Humongous difference. Most of those who come on the message board and tell us we are not Christians don't share with us their specific denomination in my experience, some state they are nondenominational or biblical Christians. Some say Evangelical. Back ten or more years ago, a few Baptists appeared on another message board (ZLMB) from time to time and they may have showed up on the predecessor to this board. As far as specific names, the only ones I remember are Rob Bowman and Richard Abanes (both are very civil posters, don't want to imply they were respectful in many ways, but they did prefer their explanations of our beliefs to our own), but I can't remember if either or both labeled us as nonChristian though I am pretty sure Richard did as he labeled us polytheistic. He gave me a copy of one of his antiMormon books (as well as a copy of his critique of Harry Potter and a cd...great voice), but I may have packed it away. I will see if I can find it next time I go downstairs and doublecheck I am not misremembering. --- Someone who calls himself Evangelical and is called by others the same (such as Bowman) who labels "Mormons" who believe their Church's teachings as nonChristion, in part because of our rejection of the creeds: "Mormons see the ecumenical councils which produced the Nicean creed or the Apostle’s Creed or the Chalcedonian creed as in essence contradictory to what Scripture teaches... Christian beliefs need to match up with what the Bible in fact claims, and what the historic creeds and confessions of the church have understood the Bible to say and mean." http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ add-on: one of Jarman's links... Edited October 17, 2018 by Calm Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 25 minutes ago, kllindley said: So try this blog post: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/joeljmiller/2011/10/why-mormons-arent-christians/#disqus_thread Thanks for the link. Joel Miller, the author is not a Protestant and I don't know whether he is an evangelical or not. He himself in his biography on that page says he is Eastern Orthodox. My point is about Protestants and their evangelical subset. Of course Orthodox and Catholic folks are creedal, but even they discern between creeds. he mentions the Nicene creed but not the Athanasian. There is a reason - the Eastern Orthodox don't support it. As an evangelical I don't support the creeds, not even the Nicene creed in its entirety. It specifically calls for a belief in a baptism for the remission of sins. That is not a belief I hold. But I can differ with that and no Protestant I know of would claim I am not a Christian. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Navidad said: Here is a direct quote from the LDS. org website about whether or not Mormons (to use its terminology) are Christians. It gives three reasons why Mormons are rejected by and from the non-LDS Christian family. I quote two. I understand the third. The most oft-used reasons are the following: Latter-day Saints do not accept the creeds, confessions, and formulations of post–New Testament Christianity. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend through the historical line of traditional Christianity. That is, Latter-day Saints are not Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. Regarding #1 - Would it not perhaps be more accurate just to say that the reason for the rejection is that Latter-day Saints have what many Christians believe to be heterodox views of the Trinity and Christology, therefore their Christianity is rejected by those same Christians? Would it not be more accurate to simply leave the concept of creeds, confessions, and formulations out of it, especially since the most anti-Mormon critics are themselves non-Creedal? Certainly the group I belong to is non-creedal and we are not considered non-Christians because of it. I struggle to see the correlation between creeds and being rejected as Christians. It is the heterodoxy that causes the challenges for the Saints, isn't it? Specific and individual creeds and creedalism seem to have little if anything to do with it. Regarding #2 - I don't understand this one at all. Again, my particular faith group considers itself to be non-Catholic and non-Protestant. This is to a large degree because of the history of thousands of Mennonites being martyred by both groups. Can anyone provide some specific examples of #2 actually happening and by whom? Thanks so much. The late Stephen E. Robinson "... was a religious scholar and apologist, who was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)... He was the first practicing Latter-day Saint to be tenured in Religion at a non-Mormon institution (Lycoming College)." Here's a quote from an interesting book by Brother Robinson, "Are Mormons Christians", in which he described an event at his college in which he gave a presentation about the LDS church, in which he had the following exchange with a fellow professor at the school: Quote "When I was done one of my professors raised his hand and said, "Well, Steve, that was wonderful and informative, but I think you have left us with the incorrect impression that you Mormons are a Christian denomination, when, of course, you are not." Now, I knew this man fairly well, and consequently I knew what he meant by this statement. It was not a malicious pronouncement, but it had absolutely nothing to do with what Latter-day Saints believed or didn't believe about Jesus Christ. The man was a liberal Protestant historian, and his definition of the term Christian was a historical definition; it had nothing to do with personal belief. To him a Christian was someone whose theological family tree could be traced back through the Protestant Reformation, through the Roman Catholic church, and through the ecumenical councils to the first council of bishops at Nicaea in A.D. 325. His definition had very little to do with what one believed; it was more concerned with how one came by that belief. In his view, if your theology had the right pedigree you were a Christian; if not, though you might believe every word of the New Testament, you were still not a true Christian, because your intellectual and theological genealogy were all wrong. "As a liberal Protestant historian this professor had additional incentives for defining Christian in terms of heritage rather than belief, for, as I knew from private conversations with him, he did not personally believe most of the supernatural claims of the primitive Christian church. If" being Christian" was a matter of heritage rather than of personal belief, he could still claim the title "Christian" as his own, even though he did not believe the historical claims of the New Testament. Thus, being aware of the background of this professor and his views, I understood what he meant when he said, "Mormons aren't Christians," but I also was aware that the congregation did not understand his meaning correctly. To them it sounded as if he were denying that the Latter-day Saints believed in Jesus Christ. And so for their benefit I initiated the following exchange: "Do you personally believe that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God, that he had no mortal father?" I asked. "No," he replied, "not literally." "Do you believe in the divinity of the historical Jesus?" "No." "Do you believe that Jesus had the power to perform miracles?" "No." "Do you believe that he took upon him the sins of the world in some literal way, as a real transfer of real guilt?" "No." "Do you believe that in some literal way Jesus died for us?" "No." "Do you believe in the literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus?" "No." "Do you believe in a final judgment?" "No." "Do you believe in an afterlife at all?" "I think so." "And are you a Christian?" "Of course I am." "How can you say that?" "Because I accept the New Testament as containing God's word, even though I do not interpret it literally, and because I am an ordained minister in a denomination that traces its Christian heritage back to the New Testament period without a historical break." "All right, now, as a Latter-day Saint I believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God; that he was and is divine; that he had the power to work miracles; that he took the sins of the world upon him in Gethsemane and on Calvary; that he died for us; that he was literally, bodily raised up on the third day; and that he will raise us up to judgment and a glorious afterlife. Now, am I a Christian?" "Absolutely not." "Why not?" "Because you are a member of a church that is not theologically derived from and dependent upon the councils and creeds of the historical church, and because you reject traditional Christianity and its theology after the second century." "Does your definition of 'being Christian' have anything to do with my personal belief in Jesus Christ?" "No." Now, when it was laid out like this, the congregation could see that the man was using a specialized definition of the term Christian, and consequently that he was not really saying what they had at first thought. After the lecture several people approached me to say that according to how they defined "being a Christian," the Latter-day Saints certainly qualified, but that they weren't so sure anymore about the professor. Robinson, Stephen E.. Are Mormons Christians? The book is well worth a read, I think. And contains a great deal of information as to how many in non-LDS denominations work to exclude the Latter-day Saints from the label "Christian." Edited October 17, 2018 by Stargazer Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Navidad said: Stargazer: I am proud of myself. I just wrote a long answer to your post about fault and then I deleted it. One thing I have learned on this forum is I don't have to answer every post! Even those I sometimes really really really want to, like one on Mormon history! Congratulations! And sometimes I have found myself deleting (or storing offline without posting it) responses that I decide aren't necessary. Even if they're brilliant and clearly need to be seen by the world! And I am pretty sure I have a good idea of the content of your response! You've actually wrote a bit about it in previous posts. Edited October 17, 2018 by Stargazer Link to comment
kllindley Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2012-01/are-mormons-christian-its-complicated Quotes several non-mormon people making both arguments one and two. https://www.christiantoday.com/amp/who-are-the-mormons-and-are-they-christians/123894.htm Makes both arguments one and two. Link to comment
kllindley Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, Navidad said: Thanks for the link. Joel Miller, the author is not a Protestant and I don't know whether he is an evangelical or not. He himself in his biography on that page says he is Eastern Orthodox. My point is about Protestants and their evangelical subset. Of course Orthodox and Catholic folks are creedal, but even they discern between creeds. he mentions the Nicene creed but not the Athanasian. There is a reason - the Eastern Orthodox don't support it. As an evangelical I don't support the creeds, not even the Nicene creed in its entirety. It specifically calls for a belief in a baptism for the remission of sins. That is not a belief I hold. But I can differ with that and no Protestant I know of would claim I am not a Christian. He said his perspective is informed by Eastern Orthodoxy. He very clearly blogs under the Evangelical title. Link to comment
kllindley Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, JarMan said: Also this article: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2012-01/are-mormons-christian-its-complicated Also this: https://www.gregtrimble.com/why-mormons-dont-believe-in-the-trinity/ This: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ More: https://www.christianity.com/christian-life/political-and-social-issues/mormonism-is-not-christianity-11628184.html I could go on for a very long time. In addition there have been many people over the years on this very forum who’ve made the Nicene Creed into an argument for the non-Christianity of Mormons. This may be a new concept to @Navidad but it is old hat to people who have been on this board for an appreciable length of time. You beat me to those sources. Link to comment
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Rob Bowman Quote However, if you consciously and deliberately reject the Nicene position for a radically different theology that denies basic elements of the biblical and Christian position, then you have separated yourself confessionally from orthodox Christianity. This is what Mormonism does, and that is why we assert that it is not an authentic form of Christianity Also Quote Evangelicals (such as Witherington or myself) do not regard the ecumenical councils as having “authority” in the same way as Scripture, or as Mormons view their living prophets. We do not view the creeds as inspired documents. Rather, we view them as reliable expressions of Christian faith that have stood the test of time and critical examination as just that—reliable expressions. This is why evangelicals are generally comfortable with critical theological analysis of the creeds to see what refinements or restatements might be needed in light of advancing understanding of Scripture and more developed theological reflection. Again, our claim is not that one must know, understand, and affirm the creeds to be a Christian. Rather, one must view God in basically the same way as the creeds and not reject the basic system of doctrine or theological worldview that those creeds reliably express. http://www.religiousresearcher.org/2012/08/29/mormonism-and-christianity-evangelical-witherington-versus-mormon-hamblin/ Edited October 17, 2018 by Calm 1 Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 33 minutes ago, JarMan said: I think you were right when you said that Mormons were rejected as Christians because of heterodox views. But heterodox to what? Well, by definition heterodoxy is heterodox to orthodoxy. And what defines orthodoxy? The creeds, for one. As a mainstream Christian you don’t need to know the creeds even exist to quickly realize the LDS view of the trinity is heterodox. You just need to attend church semi-regularly. But that is beside the point. The creedal argument you keep hearing from us is implied whenever someone points out the Mormon view of the godhead is heterodox. If you’re going to make the argument that Mormon beliefs are heterodox—which you have done, and which argument I am in agreement with—then my question to you is: How is orthodoxy defined? But I’m not asking how you define orthodoxy because then your assertion potentially only holds the weight of one person. What I’m really interested in is a general definition of orthodoxy that most Christians can agree on. Only then can we say that Mormon beliefs are heterodox. So let’s take the issue of the trinity. How are you going to define orthodoxy while being as inclusive as possible? I am happy to give you my view on orthodoxy. I think the basis of what I think is generally accepted in Christianity as a whole, but it is inevitable that others will disagree because I include too much; while others (probably most) would chastise me for including too little. I believe that the only orthodoxy that matters are those beliefs that are necessary for one to be called a Christian. Nothing else. That is very important. I believe in foot washing. That doesn't make me orthodox and someone who doesn't heterodox (at least not in my view). I believe that humility and peace are hallmarks of a Christian spirit. I believe that strongly. That doesn't make me orthodox and someone who doesn't value those things heterodox. What makes someone orthodox in my thinking - the great truths of Christianity: That God exists; that the Godhead is composed of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Spirit), that God sent his Son to earth as a baby; He was born a baby in a virgin birth; Christ put Himself (Greek middle voice) on the cross where he suffered and literally died for our sins; He rose again in a glorified body after three days, and ascended back into Heaven. That gift, the gift of atonement covers our sin in the eyes of the Father. If we accept that gift by repentance and turning around to a life of commitment and gratitude to Christ we begin a great journey; the journey of sanctification. Not all walk this journey, but many do and live a life of ever-increasing learning of and growth in our knowledge of spiritual things. We can look forward to eternity with God where we continue to grow, learn as we sit at the feet of the Savior at the right hand of the Father. That is what I think is orthodoxy. Is there much in there the LDS don't agree with? I can't and won't get any more specific because there are too many fine details that are hidden from us. We just don't know and must wait until we cross the veil to learn more. Now I also believe that many more folks will be in heaven than many think, because I think God is the ultimate decider of that and He hasn't revealed to us the details of who will spend eternity with him. I think God's mercy balances perfectly with his justice, therefore I am what is called an "inclusivist." That last belief doesn't make me orthodox because I don't believe there is an orthodox position on heaven and who will live there eternally. There are three or four positions on that among evangelicals, probably all of which are orthodox; and two or three that are heterodox, but bottom line I have to say, who knows? As I said, some will take away from my view of orthodoxy and some will add to it. That is because we see in a glass darkly right now. I don't know if that helps but I have tried to genuinely answer your question. To the extent that anyone truly believes in those specific points, I believe they can and should be called a Christian. Link to comment
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 Quote I believe that the only orthodoxy that matters are those beliefs that are necessary for one to be called a Christian. Nothing else. What those beliefs are are debated though, are they not? Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 41 minutes ago, JarMan said: Also this article: https://www.christiancentury.org/article/2012-01/are-mormons-christian-its-complicated Also this: https://www.gregtrimble.com/why-mormons-dont-believe-in-the-trinity/ This: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ More: https://www.christianity.com/christian-life/political-and-social-issues/mormonism-is-not-christianity-11628184.html I could go on for a very long time. In addition there have been many people over the years on this very forum who’ve made the Nicene Creed into an argument for the non-Christianity of Mormons. This may be a new concept to @Navidad but it is old hat to people who have been on this board for an appreciable length of time. My friend, anyone can make an argument out of anything. I am not interested in the ad-hoc anecdotal statement of this or that person. I don't usually drink out of old hats. So, if you all are saying, I met a Christian once who told me this or that; or here is an article that says this or that. Or I was in Temple Square one day and I really goofy guy told me I was going to Hell . . . Then I surrender. Of course you did and of course he said that. I would be silly to question that, and I don't. I am much more interested in what I thought you all were saying - that certain real live groups of Christians claim the creed or no Christianity. that is very different. Is it right then for me to get out my old hat and tell you everything an overly-zealous Saint has said to me and turn that into the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? You would howl in protest. I know he doesn't represent your faith, your doctrine, or your Church. I will read your four links and let you know what I find. I look forward to it; just getting a little tired tonight. Thanks. Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 53 minutes ago, Calm said: Most of those who come on the message board and tell us we are not Christians don't share with us their specific denomination in my experience, some state they are nondenominational or biblical Christians. Some say Evangelical. Back ten or more years ago, a few Baptists appeared on another message board (ZLMB) from time to time and they may have showed up on the predecessor to this board. As far as specific names, the only ones I remember are Rob Bowman and Richard Abanes (both are very civil posters, don't want to imply they were respectful in many ways, but they did prefer their explanations of our beliefs to our own), but I can't remember if either or both labeled us as nonChristian though I am pretty sure Richard did as he labeled us polytheistic. He gave me a copy of one of his antiMormon books (as well as a copy of his critique of Harry Potter and a cd...great voice), but I may have packed it away. I will see if I can find it next time I go downstairs and doublecheck I am not misremembering. --- Someone who calls himself Evangelical and is called by others the same (such as Bowman) who labels "Mormons" who believe their Church's teachings as nonChristion, in part because of our rejection of the creeds: "Mormons see the ecumenical councils which produced the Nicean creed or the Apostle’s Creed or the Chalcedonian creed as in essence contradictory to what Scripture teaches... Christian beliefs need to match up with what the Bible in fact claims, and what the historic creeds and confessions of the church have understood the Bible to say and mean." http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/08/27/why-mormons-are-not-christians-the-issue-of-christology/ add-on: one of Jarman's links... Thanks. I certainly don't care about their names. I will look at the link you provided in the morning. I believe by all of your responses that I am getting that I misunderstood. You all are talking about the same thing. This guy said that or this; not that a bonafide group of Protestants hold this as a belief or doctrine. That is what I was trying to figure out. I have had Mormons tell me I am a son of perdition since I attend a ward and haven't converted. Should I consider that the opinion of Latter-day Saints as a group? No wait, don't answer that. I don't want to know that! Ha! Link to comment
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) Quote certain real live groups of Christians claim the creed or no Christianity. The countercult groups like IRR that Bowman runs include rejection of what they see the creeds identify from the Bible, I suspect, rather than the creeds themselves along the lines of what I quoted from Bowman above. I may be interpreting what Bowman and others who follow the same line of reasoning incorrectly. I am curious as to how you read it. I don't usually focus on the creeds myself, I prefer to deal with specifics such as differences in belief about the Creator/creature divide (which to me is the fundamental difference and in my experience why we are sometimes seen as blasphemers and understandably so in my opinion). Edited October 17, 2018 by Calm Link to comment
JarMan Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Navidad said: I am happy to give you my view on orthodoxy. I think the basis of what I think is generally accepted in Christianity as a whole, but it is inevitable that others will disagree because I include too much; while others (probably most) would chastise me for including too little. I believe that the only orthodoxy that matters are those beliefs that are necessary for one to be called a Christian. Nothing else. That is very important. I believe in foot washing. That doesn't make me orthodox and someone who doesn't heterodox (at least not in my view). I believe that humility and peace are hallmarks of a Christian spirit. I believe that strongly. That doesn't make me orthodox and someone who doesn't value those things heterodox. What makes someone orthodox in my thinking - the great truths of Christianity: That God exists; that the Godhead is composed of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Spirit), that God sent his Son to earth as a baby; He was born a baby in a virgin birth; Christ put Himself (Greek middle voice) on the cross where he suffered and literally died for our sins; He rose again in a glorified body after three days, and ascended back into Heaven. That gift, the gift of atonement covers our sin in the eyes of the Father. If we accept that gift by repentance and turning around to a life of commitment and gratitude to Christ we begin a great journey; the journey of sanctification. Not all walk this journey, but many do and live a life of ever-increasing learning of and growth in our knowledge of spiritual things. We can look forward to eternity with God where we continue to grow, learn as we sit at the feet of the Savior at the right hand of the Father. That is what I think is orthodoxy. Is there much in there the LDS don't agree with? I can't and won't get any more specific because there are too many fine details that are hidden from us. We just don't know and must wait until we cross the veil to learn more. Now I also believe that many more folks will be in heaven than many think, because I think God is the ultimate decider of that and He hasn't revealed to us the details of who will spend eternity with him. I think God's mercy balances perfectly with his justice, therefore I am what is called an "inclusivist." That last belief doesn't make me orthodox because I don't believe there is an orthodox position on heaven and who will live there eternally. There are three or four positions on that among evangelicals, probably all of which are orthodox; and two or three that are heterodox, but bottom line I have to say, who knows? As I said, some will take away from my view of orthodoxy and some will add to it. That is because we see in a glass darkly right now. I don't know if that helps but I have tried to genuinely answer your question. To the extent that anyone truly believes in those specific points, I believe they can and should be called a Christian. As I mentioned earlier I’m not trying to uncover your view of orthodoxy. I’m essentially asking you to engage in a thought experiment. There are people who, for whatever reason, want to label Mormons as non-Christian. Put yourself in their shoes for a second and ask yourself how you would justify that assertion. You can’t simply say Mormon views are heterodox end of story. You have to also define what it means to be orthodox in the first place. And if you’re trying to convince the widest range of Christians of your view as possible you need to make an appeal to an authority that will be recognized by a wide range of Christians. Hence the creeds becomes the basis of the argument. This isn’t some flimsy straw man Mormons have built. It’s a real and persistent argument that has been used by a wide variety of Christians over a sustained period of time. 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Navidad said: Thanks. I certainly don't care about their names. I will look at the link you provided in the morning. I believe by all of your responses that I am getting that I misunderstood. You all are talking about the same thing. This guy said that or this; not that a bonafide group of Protestants hold this as a belief or doctrine. That is what I was trying to figure out. I have had Mormons tell me I am a son of perdition since I attend a ward and haven't converted. Should I consider that the opinion of Latter-day Saints as a group? No wait, don't answer that. I don't want to know that! Ha! I don't know of any denomination that cares enough to have its position on "Mormonism" as part of its official commentary, though I have seen local groups of Baptists and nondenominational Christian groups hold classes on "Mormonism" and use such films as "The Godmakers" as resources. It has been awhile, but FairMormon did a survey or was given the results of a survey asking Christian pastors what were the resources they used to teach their congregations about Latter-day Saints and that film was the most popular choice. Hoping that has changed in the last 10-15 years since the survey. I would hope all religious groups have better things to occupy their time and resources. The only groups I am aware of that officially devote at least some of their efforts to stating "Mormonism is not Christian" are countercult groups/ministries. Latter-day Saints may be confused over who is saying what because most of us likely understand "a ministry" as similar to "a congregation" (being under a minister) and a congregation is usually seen as attached to a denomination. Nondenominational Christian groups are often, in my understanding, thought to be the same thing as "unchurched" as opposed to just being an independent Christian congregation that may reject others' creeds. Edited October 17, 2018 by Calm Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 47 minutes ago, Stargazer said: The late Stephen E. Robinson "... was a religious scholar and apologist, who was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)... He was the first practicing Latter-day Saint to be tenured in Religion at a non-Mormon institution (Lycoming College)." Here's a quote from an interesting book by Brother Robinson, "Are Mormons Christians", in which he described an event at his college in which he gave a presentation about the LDS church, in which he had the following exchange with a fellow professor at the school: The book is well worth a read, I think. And contains a great deal of information as to how many in non-LDS denominations work to exclude the Latter-day Saints from the label "Christian." Hi: I have the book. I have read it several times. I think I have read everything he has ever published. It is a shame we have lost him. But again, you all are turning on the light for me. You all are talking about anecdotal one-time incidents from this or that person. It is clear from Elder Robinsons' quote that the man he was talking about probably was not even a Christian himself. I have clearly said in many posts that certainly there are those who exclude the Latter-day Saints from being Christian. There is no more dispute about that than if I said Mormons don't think my baptism had any validity. Of course that is true. I guess I misunderstood. We all have our horror stories. They make for great reading, but they don't lead to the conclusion that there are Protestant groups who deny the label Christianity to Mormons because Mormons don't believe the creeds. That is what I was hearing. You all seem to be saying "Phil, there are Christians who don't think we are Christians because we don't believe in the creeds." I would never question that. 1 Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 52 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Congratulations! And sometimes I have found myself deleting (or storing offline without posting it) responses that I decide aren't necessary. Even if they're brilliant and clearly need to be seen by the world! And I am pretty sure I have a good idea of the content of your response! You've actually wrote a bit about it in previous posts. You mean my "plenty of fault to go around" posts? 😊 Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, kllindley said: He said his perspective is informed by Eastern Orthodoxy. He very clearly blogs under the Evangelical title. Sure he did, Eastern Orthodox certainly can be evangelical. No question about that. But he speaks as an Eastern Orthodox and not a Protestant and in his blog he speaks for himself. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, Navidad said: You mean my "plenty of fault to go around" posts? 😊 I believe so, yes! Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, kllindley said: You beat me to those sources. I will read them as I told others. Too late tonight! Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, Calm said: Rob Bowman Also http://www.religiousresearcher.org/2012/08/29/mormonism-and-christianity-evangelical-witherington-versus-mormon-hamblin/ I look forward to reading this. Sounds interesting! Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, JarMan said: As I mentioned earlier I’m not trying to uncover your view of orthodoxy. I’m essentially asking you to engage in a thought experiment. There are people who, for whatever reason, want to label Mormons as non-Christian. Put yourself in their shoes for a second and ask yourself how you would justify that assertion. You can’t simply say Mormon views are heterodox end of story. You have to also define what it means to be orthodox in the first place. And if you’re trying to convince the widest range of Christians of your view as possible you need to make an appeal to an authority that will be recognized by a wide range of Christians. Hence the creeds becomes the basis of the argument. This isn’t some flimsy straw man Mormons have built. It’s a real and persistent argument that has been used by a wide variety of Christians over a sustained period of time. I believe in your line of thinking, the Bible would be that source of authority. not the creeds. The creeds are authoritative for a small percentage of Protestants. The creeds are not where one would go to "convince the widest range of Christians." The Bible is where you would go. Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 17, 2018 Author Share Posted October 17, 2018 17 minutes ago, Calm said: I don't know of any denomination that cares enough to have its position on "Mormonism" as part of its official commentary (though I have seen local groups of Baptists and nondenominational Christian groups hold classes on "Mormonism" and use such films as "The Godmakers" as resources. It has been awhile, but FairMormon did a survey or was given the results of a survey asking Christian pastors what were the resources they used to teach their congregations about Latter-day Saints and that film was the most popular choice. Hoping that has changed in the last 10-15 years since the survey. I would hope all religious groups have better things to occupy their time and resources. The only groups I am aware of that officially devote at least some of their efforts to stating "Mormonism is not Christian" are countercult groups/ministries. Latter-day Saints may be confused over who is saying what because most of us likely understand "a ministry" as similar to "a congregation" (being under a minister) and a congregation is usually seen as attached to a denomination. Nondenominational Christian groups are often, in my understanding, thought to be the same thing as "unchurched" as opposed to just being an independent Christian congregation that may reject others' creeds. I am not suggesting that their position on Mormons would be in their doctrinal statement. But certainly, if they believed that you must believe in this or that creed to be considered a Christian that would be in their statement of faith for sure. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Navidad said: Hi: I have the book. I have read it several times. I think I have read everything he has ever published. It is a shame we have lost him. But again, you all are turning on the light for me. You all are talking about anecdotal one-time incidents from this or that person. It is clear from Elder Robinsons' quote that the man he was talking about probably was not even a Christian himself. I have clearly said in many posts that certainly there are those who exclude the Latter-day Saints from being Christian. There is no more dispute about that than if I said Mormons don't think my baptism had any validity. Of course that is true. I guess I misunderstood. We all have our horror stories. They make for great reading, but they don't lead to the conclusion that there are Protestant groups who deny the label Christianity to Mormons because Mormons don't believe the creeds. That is what I was hearing. You all seem to be saying "Phil, there are Christians who don't think we are Christians because we don't believe in the creeds." I would never question that. Well, for what it's worth, I've had a few Evangelicals tell me that I was going to hell because I was a Mormon. One particular guy was a very sincere Southern Baptist. And of course he told me that this was because I wasn't really a Christian. This was while I worked at Nabisco preparing to serve my mission, and he was my supervisor -- he was a nice guy and treated me respectfully, so no complaints, but I was not a Christian. One of my coworkers at the time was a graduate of Biola College with a degree in Bible studies, and he also felt it important to tell me I was going to hell because I wasn't a Christian. Like this guy, Sean McDowell, he distinguished very clearly between Mormonism and Christianity. After I returned from my mission I worked for a year or so at Kraft Foods, and I remember mentioning to a coworker that I was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whereupon he recoiled away from me looking like he was afraid I was going to infect him with something. Every time I saw him after this, he would stare at me and be sure that he stayed well away from me. It was very bizarre, and I have no idea if he thought I was not a Christian, because we never spoke after that. I will say that it has been many decades since then, and I can't recall anyone else telling me that I wasn't Christian because I was a Mormon. So, when it comes to anecdotal one-time incidents, I have more than one! You are probably aware that, by definition, every personal experience one has is anecdotal. Has anyone ever done a statistically valid and objective study of the matter? Not that I am aware of. But there are a lot of personal experiences out there, and I think not an insufficient number of them shows that there is a lot of that going on out there. Not everywhere, of course. Link to comment
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