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Bill "Papa" Lee

Are natural disasters on the rise, and a sign of the time?

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46 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair would anyone really miss Florida if it were gone?

How far above sea level is DisneyWorld?

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, the extent of the change can still be mitigated. We probably won’t do anything though.

We could also start looking into good ways to adapt to the change but since we are still in denial mode we probably will not do that either.

Sometimes a bit of panic is healthy if it motivates change.

Back in 1990 my high school my biology teacher gave us a "dire warning" about global warming....stating that in twenty years Florida would be underwater.....still waiting.....

I'm calling B.S. on this one.....serious load of crap! 

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Back in 1990 my high school my biology teacher gave us a "dire warning" about global warming....stating that in twenty years Florida would be underwater.....still waiting.....

I'm calling B.S. on this one.....serious load of crap! 

A hysterical and ignorantly zealous youth Sunday School teacher once told me the Second Coming would happen by the time I was 30. Does this mean I can call B.S. on the Second Coming?

A proposition should be judged by its most grounded adherents. If a hysterical hyperbolic nut supporting something is enough to discredit it and you apply that standard in an evenhanded manner then you will end up believing almost nothing.

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4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A hysterical and ignorantly zealous youth Sunday School teacher once told me the Second Coming would happen by the time I was 30. Does this mean I can call B.S. on the Second Coming?

A proposition should be judged by its most grounded adherents. If a hysterical hyperbolic nut supporting something is enough to discredit it and you apply that standard in an evenhanded manner then you will end up believing almost nothing.

Both are examples of religious claims.........nothing wrong with religious claims....just pointing that out to you. 

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One thing is for sure, if people give their governments enough MONEY, the problems will be solved, or at least tackled, or at least studied thoroughly, or at least programs will be started to ...ummm.... they'll get back to us.

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37 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Both are examples of religious claims.........nothing wrong with religious claims....just pointing that out to you. 

Nothing wrong with scientifically supported claims about the future based on cause and effect either. Even if your deranged schoolteacher misused said claims.

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36 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

One thing is for sure, if people give their governments enough MONEY, the problems will be solved, or at least tackled, or at least studied thoroughly, or at least programs will be started to ...ummm.... they'll get back to us.

Since we live in a democracy we could theoretically demand something be done and elect smart people who will not preach “smooth things” unto us like the pathetic dimwits we are (mostly) electing now. I will not hold my breath though.

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On October 11, 2018 at 1:27 PM, The Nehor said:

Only in the United States is climate change still considered controversial. I wish we would join the rest of the developed world in accepting the scientific consensus and move on to discussing what, if anything, we should do to mitigate it and what we should do to prepare for the changes it will bring.

The new face of American Exceptionialism:

no-listening.jpg?w=377&h=283

It is without a doubt controversial in Nations other than in the U.S., where many will do nothing, while their citizens choke on uncontrolled smog. But most can agree on one thing, America should do more, pay more, and be blamed more. While I was stationed in (what was then) West Germany, persons from the Eastern block Nations could get "health travel visas" to escape the air quality for a time, due to their failing health. In short, they could come to the West, to escape their health problems for a while. China's citizens are in such distress in most areas, they can't escape anywhere, much the same with Russia, India, Indonesia. Should I go on? 

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18 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

It is without a doubt controversial in Nations other than in the U.S., where many will do nothing, while their citizens choke on uncontrolled smog. But most can agree on one thing, America should do more, pay more, and be blamed more. While I was stationed in (what was then) West Germany, persons from the Eastern block Nations could get "health travel visas" to escape the air quality for a time, due to their failing health. In short, they could come to the West, to escape their health problems for a while. China's citizens are in such distress in most areas, they can't escape anywhere, much the same with Russia, India, Indonesia. Should I go on? 

No, it is not controversial there. They just do not do anything about it. An entirely different problem.

I agree with you that they have serious problems. We may be going back that way ourselves. I look at the pre-EPA pictures of cities in our own nation and watch people vilify the EPA and wonder if that is really what people want to go back to.

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19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is not controversial there. They just do not do anything about it. An entirely different problem.

I agree with you that they have serious problems. We may be going back that way ourselves. I look at the pre-EPA pictures of cities in our own nation and watch people vilify the EPA and wonder if that is really what people want to go back to.

I guess I have greater Faith in our Nation. 

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2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I guess I have greater Faith in our Nation. 

I used to. Now we are where we are and I do not have it any more. We have sold so many of our ideals so cheaply.

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair would anyone really miss Florida if it were gone?

I'm sure the people in Florida would!

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm sure the people in Florida would!

Yes, but hopefully Florida sinking into the ocean would solve that problem too.

I am really not seeing a downside here.

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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I used to. Now we are where we are and I do not have it any more. We have sold so many of our ideals so cheaply.

I have seen our ideals upheld and derailed for 6+ decades now. Often times, those who give lip service to our ideals, but only lip service, as they seek to undermine and ignore the ideals they claim to want. As one who served a decade in the military, and 23 years in various law enforcement, I have seen both the military and law enforcement made out to be the enemy, in both word and deed, at times by sowing civil discord. I cringe often at the language, and comments of our current, highest "Law Enforcement Offical", but that pales in comparison  to the language, of those who oppose, their  protected actions (such as freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc), and criminal actions, (destruction of private and Gov't property, assault  of those who oppose him, even the attempted murder of the current party in power. His former opponent, who said that (too paraphrase) "it is impossible to be civil, to those who oppose your ideals . Our former President, who encouraged people to take to the streets, while in office (occupy Wallstreet and other actions) and to do all they can to bring down our current administration. Members of congress encouraging those who oppose this administration, to confront "every administration Offical", wherever they can find them". Causing those who claim to want "diversity and tolerance " , at times, causing  "Admin officials,  Members of the House, Senators, an others to be unable at times to have dinner with their own families. 

You are right, we are not upholding our ideals, even the time honored tradition, that a man or woman is presumed inocient, until proven guiltily. As to the EPA, air quality is beginning to go downhill (under every administration) in the U.S., despite U.S., (no pun intended) other than any other Nations, except Island Nations that are small enough for their poor quality, is swept out to sea. Every area of our Nation's economy, GPA, Law Enforcement, Military, boarder security, for "legal immigration", all of these ideals remain. I pray our current President, feels his work is done soon, paving the way for a "more civil speaking", candidate, like many in his cabinet  who are "not so corse" in their language. If not, I will pray for the more conservative and mainstream President remains. The U.S. cannot survive many more socialists, who speak of "ideals", while seeking to undermine every "ideal". It is sad how no matter the post, often some wish to make it political, and sorry I needed to give the perspective of age to my post, about the second coming. I often wonder if many try to turn to the political, because those doing so will get them shut down? I hope not, I hope we get back to the "second coming", aspect, and maybe to avoid the "global warming part", that can always turn political, and turn to Israel's and the Middle East part, and the scriptural aspect that refer to all the players in the Middle East, and her Northern neighbors. Please! 

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16 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I guess I have greater Faith in our Nation. 

With the current administration, I don't. Especially when it tries nixing some good environmental laws that the previous admin put in. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/

Edited by Tacenda

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On 10/12/2018 at 2:49 PM, strappinglad said:

One thing is for sure, if people give their governments enough MONEY, the problems will be solved, or at least tackled, or at least studied thoroughly, or at least programs will be started to ...ummm.... they'll get back to us.

The TOTAL ABSOLUTE REALITY is that if the common folk (also known as patriotic citizens) give those in control enough money, those in control would squander it as always on THEMSELVES --- their salaries, their healthcare, their security, their transportation, their offices, their paid days off,  their luncheons, their re-election, their retirement. And then they'd ask for even MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  But I think you already figured that out... "ummm.... they'll get back to us"

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8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

With the current administration, I don't. Especially when it tries nixing some good environmental laws that the previous admin put in. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/03/how-trump-is-changing-science-environment/

Well it seems that there is no hope of anyone honoring my request to get back to the "second coming", and away from politics. 

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54 minutes ago, LittleNipper said:

The TOTAL ABSOLUTE REALITY is that if the common folk (also known as patriotic citizens) give those in control enough money, those in control would squander it as always on THEMSELVES --- their salaries, their healthcare, their security, their transportation, their offices, their paid days off,  their luncheons, their re-election, their retirement. And then they'd ask for even MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  But I think you already figured that out... "ummm.... they'll get back to us"

Again all, please stop this. 

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1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Well it seems that there is no hope of anyone honoring my request to get back to the "second coming", and away from politics. 

Oh, I apologise about that. My worry is people want the Second Coming, and want the world to burn up, not saying you do PaPa. My worry is that people won't do what is needed to prevent disaster, because they want to move onto the next life, perhaps?

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1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Oh, I apologise about that. My worry is people want the Second Coming, and want the world to burn up, not saying you do PaPa. My worry is that people won't do what is needed to prevent disaster, because they want to move onto the next life, perhaps?

Of course no one wants the "world to burn up", that is just a cheap shot, at those who may not share the opinions of others. The "coming of Christ" is something believers should hope for someday. Difficult times are a precursor to his coming, but people don't want to have unbreathable air, oceans to rise, wars to happen, the suggestion otherwise is just silly. 

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How does one decide between viewing naturally occurring events as a sign that God is in favor of their  worldview or against it?

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First off, about this topic, I believe that by the very fact that another day has come and gone means that we are moving closer to the catching away and not further from it. Now there have always been disasters. HOWEVER, one would be hard pressed to say that the amount, variety and seemingly one after another events seem not to be rising. One expected a major disaster every year and not every week. Hundred year storms seem to happen every week and sometimes to the same areas.  

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47 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

How does one decide between viewing naturally occurring events as a sign that God is in favor of their  worldview or against it?

That is an excellent question.  The problem is easily seen, but not so easily solved.  At any one given time the oldest of us is no more than 110 or so, and the most influential of us (middle-aged types) have no experience past the 1960s.  The rising generation are the most myopic of all, because they can't see past the 1990s.  They don't understand how things were in human society, what the weather was doing, what geology was doing, even just a 100 years ago, and so they think that all things are new.   Even though "it" has always been that way.  There's another kind of myopia, however.  Some of the younger generation don't appreciate the fact that mobile phones were only invented about the time they were born, and before then, people had to find a telephone booth to change into their Superman outfits.  

I'm pretty sure that we've been having bad storms, floods, fires, earthquakes and tsunamis for all of human history.  What has changed, however, is the universal availability of actual news of all these events.  The people in Europe during the Middle Ages might have personally experienced a few interesting events over their generations, but aside from human-caused events like wars and the like everything was static, especially the heavens.  Now, however, not a week goes by without hearing of some natural disaster, new conflict overseas, or some new unexpected human-caused, or human-affecting event.

So, when Joseph Smith said "There will be wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens above and on the earth beneath, the sun turned into darkness and the moon to blood, earthquakes in divers places, the seas heaving beyond their bounds" we were still in the midst of that time when news traveled only as fast as a horse could run, or a sailing ship could sail, and when hundreds of thousands died in floods in China, the news never reached us.  Joseph's prophecy there has now been fulfilled; not because there has been a change in the frequency of these events, but because now we hear about them.  We don't see these things as signs, however.  Perhaps we should (speaking of mankind as a whole, because obviously some people see them as signs).

It's a bit different when it comes to the rest of that prophecy.  When Joseph said "Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be healed" I imagine that there were many who heard that and snickered so hard they almost got a nosebleed.  And what has happened?  Judah has returned, and Jerusalem has been rebuilt.  Within the lifetime of some of the venerable oldsters in this very forum.  What has to happen for the waters of the Dead Sea to be healed?  I don't know, but if it was possible for Judah to return, then I think I'm ready to believe that the Dead Sea will be healed at some time in the future. 

Joseph also said "... then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc. But the Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east."    As for the "grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven", well, I suspect that is going to be mistaken for a comet by most folks, but it will be a sign nevertheless.  Signs are for the faithful, I feel I must point out.  Most other folks aren't going to take it as a sign.  In fact, the "grand sign" might very well be a comet, in physical fact.  What it portends, however, will go beyond its cometness.  As it were.

I'm sure many don't at all regard the return of the Jews to the Holy Land to be a fulfillment of Joseph's prophecy.  And I will admit that on the day Joseph gave that prophecy there were already a few Jews in Jerusalem, and had been for centuries.  But they weren't there in power, however.

Reference: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-21

 

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13 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I have seen our ideals upheld and derailed for 6+ decades now. Often times, those who give lip service to our ideals, but only lip service, as they seek to undermine and ignore the ideals they claim to want. As one who served a decade in the military, and 23 years in various law enforcement, I have seen both the military and law enforcement made out to be the enemy, in both word and deed, at times by sowing civil discord. I cringe often at the language, and comments of our current, highest "Law Enforcement Offical", but that pales in comparison  to the language, of those who oppose, their  protected actions (such as freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, etc), and criminal actions, (destruction of private and Gov't property, assault  of those who oppose him, even the attempted murder of the current party in power. His former opponent, who said that (too paraphrase) "it is impossible to be civil, to those who oppose your ideals . Our former President, who encouraged people to take to the streets, while in office (occupy Wallstreet and other actions) and to do all they can to bring down our current administration. Members of congress encouraging those who oppose this administration, to confront "every administration Offical", wherever they can find them". Causing those who claim to want "diversity and tolerance " , at times, causing  "Admin officials,  Members of the House, Senators, an others to be unable at times to have dinner with their own families. 

You are right, we are not upholding our ideals, even the time honored tradition, that a man or woman is presumed inocient, until proven guiltily. As to the EPA, air quality is beginning to go downhill (under every administration) in the U.S., despite U.S., (no pun intended) other than any other Nations, except Island Nations that are small enough for their poor quality, is swept out to sea. Every area of our Nation's economy, GPA, Law Enforcement, Military, boarder security, for "legal immigration", all of these ideals remain. I pray our current President, feels his work is done soon, paving the way for a "more civil speaking", candidate, like many in his cabinet  who are "not so corse" in their language. If not, I will pray for the more conservative and mainstream President remains. The U.S. cannot survive many more socialists, who speak of "ideals", while seeking to undermine every "ideal". It is sad how no matter the post, often some wish to make it political, and sorry I needed to give the perspective of age to my post, about the second coming. I often wonder if many try to turn to the political, because those doing so will get them shut down? I hope not, I hope we get back to the "second coming", aspect, and maybe to avoid the "global warming part", that can always turn political, and turn to Israel's and the Middle East part, and the scriptural aspect that refer to all the players in the Middle East, and her Northern neighbors. Please! 

If our current leadership was just coarse I wouldn't be that worried. The reality that he is coarse, stupid, ignorantly self-confident, corrupt, uses the playbook of a dictator, is undermining the institutions of democracy by undermining all faith in them, and has really stupid hair.....those are what worry me.

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6 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The TOTAL ABSOLUTE REALITY is that if the common folk (also known as patriotic citizens) give those in control enough money, those in control would squander it as always on THEMSELVES --- their salaries, their healthcare, their security, their transportation, their offices, their paid days off,  their luncheons, their re-election, their retirement. And then they'd ask for even MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  But I think you already figured that out... "ummm.... they'll get back to us"

CFR that the government is spending 100% of its tax revenues on private enrichment.

I hate using CFRs but this insane statement has driven me to do an insane thing.

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