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Doctrine 612

No more Gospel Principles.

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I hope they keep the manual around, I like using it to teach my kids during FHE.

and now that we can start study groups it would be great for starting a new convert study group.

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I have mixed feelings about this. I think they want to integrate investigators in GD on sunday, which is dumb IMO. You could be talking about baptisms for the dead to people who have been around for years all the while the new people have no idea what you are talking about and quite possibly have never seen a Temple. They would be a step 1 or 2 while others are on step 64. 

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My wife and I were discussing it and one of her concerns was that one of the benefits of keeping gospel doctrine separate from gospel principals was to keep the long time enfranchised members from going into wild tangents with the new members around.  Milk before meat (before recreational drugs).

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I have mixed feelings about this. I think they want to integrate investigators in GD on sunday, which is dumb IMO. You could be talking about baptisms for the dead to people who have been around for years all the while the new people have no idea what you are talking about and quite possibly have never seen a Temple. They would be a step 1 or 2 while others are on step 64. 

I think missionaries talk about baptism for the dead and temples.  New converts should be somewhat familiar with the concepts.  In my experience of GD class, the issues discussed are pretty general.  It would be highly unusual for a discussion on any complete and deep issue like Kolob or how God became to be God.  GD is simply just one small step up from GP class.

Edited by carbon dioxide

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Just now, carbon dioxide said:

I think missionaries talk about baptism for the dead and temples.  New converts should be somewhat familiar with the concepts.

I would hope they would be taught that before conversion. It would seem somewhat deceptive to convert someone to the LDS church without teaching them things like that.

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

I would hope they would be taught that before conversion. It would seem somewhat deceptive to convert someone to the LDS church without teaching them things like that.

Missionaries do indeed talk about this with investigators, but it's seldom the first discussion.  It is indeed possible for a just beginning investigator to hear temple work for the dead being discussed in GD class and be totally lost.  Same with other subjects.  That's why intro stuff exists in the first place.

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I love the GP manual. When I give out BoM's I also give out a GP manual with it. To me it gives a much better understanding of what we believe than by reading the BoM alone.

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I've always thought it odd for us to put new members in a separate class away from everyone when we need to integrate them into the ward

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1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

I love the GP manual. When I give out BoM's I also give out a GP manual with it. To me it gives a much better understanding of what we believe than by reading the BoM alone.

They have kept other manuals that were not being used for class anymore as references (the President of the Church series, for example).  I hope they keep this as a reference.  It is very useful imo for investigators who feel overwhelmed by info or who don't see how two teachings link together.  Even if there are no classes, I think it would be great to handout for personal study.

Edited by Calm

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12 hours ago, revelstoked said:

My wife and I were discussing it and one of her concerns was that one of the benefits of keeping gospel doctrine separate from gospel principals was to keep the long time enfranchised members from going into wild tangents with the new members around.  Milk before meat (before recreational drugs).

I was a,little worried about this for 2 years when I was a ward missionary and was teaching Gospel Principles. We has a member who regularly attended - he was faithful, but some of his ideas were way out there. It amazed me that he was so often sharing his ideas, but never once did he do it when we had a non member there. 

Now I know we can't expect that to happen all the time and we may have some doozies to worry about, but I think that it may not be as much of a problem as we tend to worry about beforehand most of the time.

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21 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I would hope they would be taught that before conversion. It would seem somewhat deceptive to convert someone to the LDS church without teaching them things like that.

Well, leaving aside the fact that "conversion" happens at indeterminate points in the process (and can even happen before the very first lesson -- which essentially is what happened to me at age 14, as I recognized the truth of it pretty much at once, and before I had even met a missionary), would you venture to quantify how much an investigator should be taught before he or she is baptized?  Possibly a list of essential topics?  Do investigators need to get taught about the temple endowment, or patriarchal blessings, for example, as prerequisites?  Not trying to be confrontational, by the way, just curious what your thoughts are on this.

I certainly don't want converts joining who get totally blindsided by something they could easily have been taught beforehand, and eased into it.  I suppose a Catholic investigator wouldn't expect to be taught about Vatican II before baptism?  Or would he?

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11 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've always thought it odd for us to put new members in a separate class away from everyone when we need to integrate them into the ward

Yeah, that's new converts, but what about new investigators visiting the meetinghouse for the first time?  Dropping them straight into a GD discussion in some wards might be a supremely bad idea.

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23 hours ago, Duncan said:

I have mixed feelings about this. I think they want to integrate investigators in GD on sunday, which is dumb IMO. You could be talking about baptisms for the dead to people who have been around for years all the while the new people have no idea what you are talking about and quite possibly have never seen a Temple. They would be a step 1 or 2 while others are on step 64. 

Temple work, including baptisms for the dead, has been included in the content for the gospel principles class for many years. 

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5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, that's new converts, but what about new investigators visiting the meetinghouse for the first time?  Dropping them straight into a GD discussion in some wards might be a supremely bad idea.

Only if the discussion gets into the fringes, which it ought not do anyway. 

In my own ward, I can’t recall any gospel doctrine lesson that would have been inappropriate for an investigator to attend. 

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1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Temple work, including baptisms for the dead, has been included in the content for the gospel principles class for many years. 

The only thing we left out of the Gospel Principles curriculum is the science behind the orbital bodies of Kolob and the rituals required to compel the Second Comforter. We save that for the mature minds/insane ramblings of the Gospel Doctrine class.

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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Only if the discussion gets into the fringes, which it ought not do anyway. 

In my own ward, I can’t recall any gospel doctrine lesson that would have been inappropriate for an investigator to attend. 

I agree, but in some wards... "ought not" is not a synonym for "will not."  As I am sure you realize.

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Temple work, including baptisms for the dead, has been included in the content for the gospel principles class for many years. 

that's what I am saying but a class discussion on it in Gospel Principles is different than it is in Gospel Doctrine, I know because i've taught both classes for years

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23 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I would hope they would be taught that before conversion. It would seem somewhat deceptive to convert someone to the LDS church without teaching them things like that.

They are taught it before baptism. I think this is a good step - doing away with the new convert lessons because I have seldom seen one consistently taught exceptionally well. This is more a reflection of the challenge of consistently changing people and what is necessary and the need to adapt based on who shows up. Allowing everyone to attend the Gospel Doctrine (adult Sunday School class) allows for both new people and old to get to know one another and grow together. 

I too have taught both classes for years and teaching Gospel Doctrine class now. Teachers adapt to whom we are teaching and the gospel is taught everytime we meet. The sky is not falling because of a change and Chicken Little can be at peace. 

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, leaving aside the fact that "conversion" happens at indeterminate points in the process (and can even happen before the very first lesson -- which essentially is what happened to me at age 14, as I recognized the truth of it pretty much at once, and before I had even met a missionary), would you venture to quantify how much an investigator should be taught before he or she is baptized?  Possibly a list of essential topics?  Do investigators need to get taught about the temple endowment, or patriarchal blessings, for example, as prerequisites?  Not trying to be confrontational, by the way, just curious what your thoughts are on this.

I certainly don't want converts joining who get totally blindsided by something they could easily have been taught beforehand, and eased into it.  I suppose a Catholic investigator wouldn't expect to be taught about Vatican II before baptism?  Or would he?

I'm a convert to Catholicism. I spent a couple of months with one-on-one instruction with the priest. We went through the entire Catechism together. He'd assign me sections to read before hand and then we'd discuss them and clarify anything I didn't quite know. I felt very informed and prepared prior to baptism.

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5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm a convert to Catholicism. I spent a couple of months with one-on-one instruction with the priest. We went through the entire Catechism together. He'd assign me sections to read before hand and then we'd discuss them and clarify anything I didn't quite know. I felt very informed and prepared prior to baptism.

That's super, MN!  Sometimes I wish that the LDS church would require a bit more preparation before baptism.  Although I am not sure if that's truly appropriate, there have been too many people who have gotten baptized and within the month were gone. One more family to home teach that doesn't contribute to the ward.  A longer preparation time might cut some of that down.  

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14 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I love the GP manual. When I give out BoM's I also give out a GP manual with it. To me it gives a much better understanding of what we believe than by reading the BoM alone.

I love the idea of the Gospel Principles manual. The manual itself is, IMO, pretty dated, is missing a lot of key things, and in a few cases is a bit problematic. But I do tend to think it leads to better lessons than just the scriptures, although I completely understand why Pres. Benson wanted that cycle of studying the scriptures. I think the big problem is that few people do independent study so they only know what they hear at Church when they're actually listening. In theory this is an attempt to fix that by having members continue the class at home. In practice we'll see how it goes. Pres. Nelson with this and the changes to Home Teaching is putting a lot of responsibility on the members. We'll see how many take it up.

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1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

Pres. Nelson with this and the changes to Home Teaching is putting a lot of responsibility on the members. We'll see how many take it up.

I think those members who payed attention to the increased emphasis on sabbath day observance 3 or 4 years ago should have few problems with Come Follow Me in the home. 

The former seems to lay the groundwork for the latter.

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3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Temple work, including baptisms for the dead, has been included in the content for the gospel principles class for many years. 

Relief Society as a topic is missing in the gospel principles book.  When speaking about the organization of the church it doesn't say anything about leadership roles held by women in the early church or restoration, or about the key(s) held by the general relief society president. 

"and I now turn the key to you in the name of God and this Society shall rejoice and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time"

 

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2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I think those members who payed attention to the increased emphasis on sabbath day observance 3 or 4 years ago should have few problems with Come Follow Me in the home. 

The former seems to lay the groundwork for the latter.

Incidentally, the Come Follow Me — for Individuals and Families is now accessible on the Gospel Library app. There was an alert when I opened my app last night. So if we are curious or of a mind to be early birds, we can get started with it right away instead of waiting for Jan. 1. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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1 hour ago, blueglass said:

Relief Society as a topic is missing in the gospel principles book.  When speaking about the organization of the church it doesn't say anything about leadership roles held by women in the early church or restoration, or about the key(s) held by the general relief society president. 

"and I now turn the key to you in the name of God and this Society shall rejoice and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time"

 

I just did a search in my Gospel Library app. Relief Society is mentioned in Gospel Principles in chapters 14 and 26. 

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