The Apostasy and the Restoration

[changed]

The apostasy is very troubling to me.  Did God really turn his back on the entire world - turn his back on innocent children - for years and years and years?  Did he really leave the world in darkness?  How could this be loving or just or merciful?  

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

Edited October 1, 2018 by changed

[Kevin Christensen]

Joseph Smith's comment here strikes me as explaining that God never turns his back on anyone anywhere:

Quote

The great designs of God in relation to the salvation of the human family, are very little understood by the professedly wise and intelligent generation in which we live. Various and conflicting are the opinions of men concerning the plan of salvation, the requisitions of the Almighty, the necessary preparations for heaven, the state and condition of departed spirits, and the happiness or misery that is consequent upon the practice of righteousness and iniquity according to their several notions of virtue and vice.
But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of man, causes "His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, "according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil," or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, "not according to what they have not, but according to what they have," those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will by judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right.

The apostasy was in relation one part of the reason for our earthly experience, ordinances and covenants, but those, will ultimately be made available to all via the Temple and Post Mortal preaching.  There is more to our mortal probation than finding and joining one church.  The test  of mortality is how we live relative to our given circumstances, not whether we live up to circumstances of which we have no access, knowledge, or experience.

Quote

Alma realizes that his own wish to speak with a voice of thunder and resolve everything by forceful demonstration is wrong and that “the Lord doth grant unto all nations of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, all that he seeth fit that they should have” (Alma 29:8). Nephi remarks that God “speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding” (2 Nephi 31:3), which explains how “he remembereth the heathen, and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile” (2 Nephi 26:33), how “all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world unto man are the typifying of him,” (2 Nephi 11:4), and how there are “divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men which were good” (Moroni 7:24).

I think the most insightful and useful discussion of the apostasy is Early Christians in Disarray, very much worth reading:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/early-christians-in-disarray-contemporary-lds-perspectives-on-the-christian-apostasy/

Quote

LDS scholars today conclude increasingly that the root causes of the apostasy were the abandonment or breaking of sacred covenants by the Christians themselves. The more we learn about the first decades after the passing of Christ, the more we can see internal rebellion against God’s covenants and against his authorized servants—much like the rebellions against Moses in the wilderness, or against Joseph Smith in Kirtland in 1836. The rebels were members of Christ’s church, sometimes leaders, who sought for earthly power, glory, and even justification for their own sins. The restoration scriptures give us some key insights: The first section of the Doctrine and Covenants says, “they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall” (Doctrine and Covenants 1:15—16).

Thus the Lord describes this apostasy as breaking covenants and straying from his ordinances. The Lord likewise says concerning his disciples during his earthly ministry, “My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened” (D&C 64:8). Thus, we see that apostasy involves breaking God’s covenants, turning from him to idols and things of this world, and not repenting of our sins, which is of course the most fundamental thing we have covenanted to do.

The scriptures of the restoration make it clear that ordinances such as baptism, priesthood ordination, and marriage are all based in covenants between men and God. Those receiving the ordinance have made certain covenants with God to turn away from their sins and obey his commandments, and God in turn makes promises to them. The ordinance provides a public witness of these covenants.⁵ What we had not previously realized is that when the second-century Christians redefined these ordinances as sacraments, they had already abandoned their covenantal understanding of the ordinances. There were significant efforts by some key thinkers in the Protestant Reformation to restore those covenantal understandings to the ordinances, but these all failed. Reinvented as sacraments, the ordinances were understood in traditional Christianity as the means by which God could bless a person with an infusion of divine grace, through the mediation of the priest. Once the covenantal understanding was lost, it made sense to bless everyone possible. So how could traditional Christianity deny baptism to infants if the recipient no longer was expected to be making a meaningful covenant in connection with that ordinance? A similar analysis applies to Christian sacraments such as last rites. This helps us understand what Nephi meant when he explained the apostasy by saying that “many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:26).

And it's worth considering non-LDS scholars like Barker who also notice that much of worth had been lost. 

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TextAndContext.pdf

Quote

An unacknowledged problem at the heart of Western Christian biblical study is that the Church, and

especially the Western Church, has as its Scriptures the Jewish canon and text of the Old Testament, when

the evidence shows clearly that the earliest Church used very different Scriptures.

And this:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/SecretTradition.pdf

Quote

There was far more to the teaching of Jesus than is recorded in the canonical gospels. For several

centuries a belief persisted among Christian writers that there had been a secret tradition entrusted to

only a few of his followers. Eusebius quotes from a now lost work of Clement of Alexandria,

Hypotyposes:‘James the Righteous, John and Peter were entrusted by the LORD after his resurrection

with the higher knowledge. They imparted it to the other apostles, and the other apostles to the

seventy, one of whom was Barnabas.’ (History 2.1)

This brief statement offers three important pieces of evidence: the tradition was given to an inner circle of disciples; the tradition was given after the

resurrection; and the tradition was a form of higher knowledge i.e. gnosis.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Kevin Christensen

[JAHS]

 

[Avatar4321]

Does not believing the Body of Christ died preclude the reality that it was resurrected?

It died. The apostasy happened. Whether you think it was justified or not it is real 

 

[Sevenbak]

10 hours ago, changed said:

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

It doesn't bother the Lord to talk about it, we probably shouldn't let it bother us...

 

Amos 8:

11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a ^afamine of bread, nor a ^bthirst for water, but of hearing the ^cwords of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall ^arun to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

[mrmarklin]

10 hours ago, changed said:

The apostasy is very troubling to me.  Did God really turn his back on the entire world - turn his back on innocent children - for years and years and years?  Did he really leave the world in darkness?  How could this be loving or just or merciful?  

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

The seeming fact that the Western World, at least, was without the Gospel for over fourteen centuries has always bothered me as well.  

I’ve  never heard a good explanation other than the Lord knows what’s best for His children. It will have to suffice, I suppose. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by mrmarklin

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

The seeming fact that the Western World, at least, was without the Gospel for over fourteen centuries has always bothered me as well.

Why would anyone have a problem with it being lost in the Western World if they believed it was never in the Eastern one (or at least not obviously present) until recently (relatively to human civilization)?

Edited October 2, 2018 by Calm

[changed]

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Does not believing the Body of Christ died preclude the reality that it was resurrected?

It died. The apostasy happened. Whether you think it was justified or not it is real 

 

 

Is it something akin to Jesus having to die and then be resurrected?  ... everyone, and everything has to die?

[carbon dioxide]

11 hours ago, changed said:

The apostasy is very troubling to me.  Did God really turn his back on the entire world - turn his back on innocent children - for years and years and years?  Did he really leave the world in darkness?  How could this be loving or just or merciful?  

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

It is not about God turning his back on us but man turned his back on God. 

[changed]

10 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Joseph Smith's comment here strikes me as explaining that God never turns his back on anyone anywhere:

The apostasy was in relation one part of the reason for our earthly experience, ordinances and covenants, but those, will ultimately be made available to all via the Temple and Post Mortal preaching.  There is more to our mortal probation than finding and joining one church.  The test  of mortality is how we live relative to our given circumstances, not whether we live up to circumstances of which we have no access, knowledge, or experience.

I think the most insightful and useful discussion of the apostasy is Early Christians in Disarray, very much worth reading:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/early-christians-in-disarray-contemporary-lds-perspectives-on-the-christian-apostasy/

And it's worth considering non-LDS scholars like Barker who also notice that much of worth had been lost. 

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TextAndContext.pdf

And this:

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/SecretTradition.pdf

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

 

Thanks Kevin. 

Do you think it is better for most people to live and die without the church?  Seems like that is what has happened...

My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened

Forgiveness is what I am having real trouble with right now - forgiveness, and trust.  ... You have to admit, the original apostles were a bit of a mess - (could not walk on water, could not heal everyone, could not stay awake in Gethsemane, betrayed Jesus with a kiss etc. etc.)  even if the church is alive and well, it is led by imperfect people, so you cannot trust everything any apostle or prophet does.  Part of it does have to come as an individual - individual testimony, no borrowed light. ...  every man walketh in his own way.... I disagree with the priesthood ban on blacks, I disagree with LGBT kids not being baptized until they are 18,  I do not understand what is wrong with LGBT couples, I have not received any confirmation on the W.o.W. - I do not drink coffee, I am not homosexual, these beliefs are not stemming from wanting to "sin", but I am not trusting the apostles on a few things... 

Cursed is he who puts his trust in the arms of flesh... so even if there are apostles and prophets - we can all only know what we have individually gained a testimony of right? and only accountable for what we individually know?

 

[changed]

3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

It is not about God turning his back on us but man turned his back on God. 

 

I do not think the little innocent kids turned their back on God.... perhaps a few people were rebellious, but not the entire world.  

[Calm]

Quote

Do you think it is better for most people to live and die without the church?  Seems like that is what has happened...

My opinion...it is not better or worst, it just is.  God can take anything and make it best.  Man can take wonders and make it the worst.  Hopefully most try hard to do their best for others though.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Calm

[changed]

 

Is this life a place to learn (in which case we need teachers - need reliable apostles etc.) ... or perhaps learning does not require a teacher - just the university of life?

or is this life primarily a test (in which case the teaching is already done, and no teacher is needed)?

Edited October 2, 2018 by changed

[Avatar4321]

A restoration was promised thousands of years ago.

 

 "And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city." Isaiah 1:26

[carbon dioxide]

43 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I do not think the little innocent kids turned their back on God.... perhaps a few people were rebellious, but not the entire world.  

Little kids often grow up to be pretty bad people. If they die as children, they have not problem.  Also the D&C is clear that all those who who would have received the gospel in mortality if they had the opportunity will be heirs of the Celestial Kingdom.  This would include during times of apostasy.  Everything works itself out in the end. 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, changed said:

The apostasy is very troubling to me.  Did God really turn his back on the entire world - turn his back on innocent children - for years and years and years?  Did he really leave the world in darkness?  How could this be loving or just or merciful?  

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

There have been multiple apostasies, and in each case it was not God but man who turned his back.  God sent his prophet(s) in the time of Noah, in the time of the Jaredites, and Abraham, and Jacob-Israel, Joseph, Moses, the Kingdom of North Israel, the Kingdom of Judah (Lehi & Jeremiah declaring the apostasy and Exile), the Kingdom of the Jews in the time of Christ, the apostasy of the Nephites, and the Great Christian Apostasy, usually with a Restoration at the end of each apostasy and exile.  None of those apostasies was justified, as you put it.  Mankind has a penchant for sin and disobedience, as you would know if you read Holy Writ.

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke.

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana.

“Learn from history or you're doomed to repeat it.” ― Jesse "The Body" Ventura.

[Kevin Christensen]

14 hours ago, changed said:

 

Thanks Kevin. 

Do you think it is better for most people to live and die without the church?  Seems like that is what has happened...

My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened

Forgiveness is what I am having real trouble with right now - forgiveness, and trust.  ... You have to admit, the original apostles were a bit of a mess - (could not walk on water, could not heal everyone, could not stay awake in Gethsemane, betrayed Jesus with a kiss etc. etc.)  even if the church is alive and well, it is led by imperfect people, so you cannot trust everything any apostle or prophet does.  Part of it does have to come as an individual - individual testimony, no borrowed light. ...  every man walketh in his own way.... I disagree with the priesthood ban on blacks, I disagree with LGBT kids not being baptized until they are 18,  I do not understand what is wrong with LGBT couples, I have not received any confirmation on the W.o.W. - I do not drink coffee, I am not homosexual, these beliefs are not stemming from wanting to "sin", but I am not trusting the apostles on a few things... 

Cursed is he who puts his trust in the arms of flesh... so even if there are apostles and prophets - we can all only know what we have individually gained a testimony of right? and only accountable for what we individually know?

 

You are welcome. 

Against the eternal perspective of the Plan of Salvation as the LDS understand it, living and dying without the church is simply a matter of different timing, not eternal denial for lack of opportunity.  The way I see it, mercy is the keynote.  The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead is a formal part of our scriptures, the Harrowing of Hell is a longstanding Christian tradition, the preaching of the Gospel to the dead is in the Bible, the vicarious ordinances has a viable theological background, and, few, if any rivals among any other faith tradition.

An inevitable consequence of the longing for perfection and the ideal is that imperfection, and only that, becomes significant and decisive.  The longest and darkest and most miserable experiences of my life have been when my wife falls into the mode of seeing my imperfections as the only significant and decisive thing about me.  There is a huge difference between asking what is Real and what is Perfect or Ideal.  The very real qualities and virtues of the apostles and prophets are there to see and value as significant and important, but if the question is perfection none of that matters.   Kuhn observes that "anomaly emerges against the background of expectation."  That means if you demand perfection, only imperfection is decisive.  And this colors our experience of life, changes what we see, and how we feel.  The single most important paragraph I have ever read on this issue is from Betty Edwards in a classic book on art called "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"

Quote

Most of us tend to see parts of a form hierarchically. The parts that are important (that is, provide a lot of information), or the parts that we decide are larger, or the parts we think should be larger, we see as larger than they actually are. Conversely, parts that are unimportant, or that we decide are smaller, or that we think should be smaller, we see as being smaller than they actually are.

We don't necessarily see things as they are, but we assign value and significance against a background of expectation.  I learned many years ago that when I run across something I did not expect, it is always important to ask, "What should I expect?"  This amounts to removing a beam from my own eye first, that I might then "see clearly."

If I do not expect the prophets and apostles to be perfect, then I can see those imperfections as just the run of the mill "arm of the flesh", natural human weaknesses, as formally and bluntly stated in D&C 1 as exactly what I should expect from them, and not as the only things about them that matter.  Most of the time my wife says, "I put up with your inconsistencies because your consistencies are important to me," and that makes a huge difference in the quality of our lives.  

Are my current set of expectations beyond repentance and correction?  Or should I be willing to tolerate a bit of humanity in other people?  Am I so perfect now that I can take the role of God and presume that I can infallibly judge not only the prophets and apostles, past and present, but also God?  Or, might I have a bit to learn?  There is a crucial difference between telling God, "That can't be right!" and asking God, like Abraham, "Is this right?"

The film Tomorrowland did not do well at the box office, but I liked it, especially for the theme of feedback loops in human experience.  A key is given at the start in the retelling of a Native American myth that every person has two wolves inside fighting for control, one dark and one light.  The question is, "Which one wins?"  And the answer is, "Which ever one you feed."

I also disagree with the priesthood policy, but it's not the only thing that matters.  I also have taken the time to understand it historical context, in the set of expectations and cultural mythos that the LDS inherited, and did not invent, let alone receive by revelation.  And I was in Salt Lake City in July 1978 and at the moment I read the headline in the morning paper at Shauna's apartment, I heard car horns honking in the streets.  There was genuine jubilation and excitement.

I have a friend whose wife left him for a series of lesbian relationships, one lasting more than a decade, and he had a discussion with his worried daughters explaining that in their case, it would not have applied.  Indeed, he had been inactive for a while, and he saw the moral outrage over the policy as largely manufactured, and that prompted to come back to activity.  It happens that his ex-wife left that life style a few years back and is now in a temple marriage.  I also have an ex-sister in law still in that lifestyle, and I know her two sons.

I have also considered carefully an aspect of sexuality that is typically absent from most discussions, I think because it so undercuts the dominant narrative that to even mention it as a possible factor in behavior unsettles the grooves of normal discussions:

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleChristensenRashomon.html

Yes, at every point, we are accountable for what we know, and but since all have come short of the glory of God, we are all needful of repentance.   We ought to continually seek greater light and knowledge, which means we all ought to change, and to expect change, and accept the need for change.

God grand me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Serenity comes with faith.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Kevin Christensen

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Sevenbak said:

It doesn't bother the Lord to talk about it, we probably shouldn't let it bother us...

 

Amos 8:

11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a ^afamine of bread, nor a ^bthirst for water, but of hearing the ^cwords of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall ^arun to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Good point, but I interpret that as a cessation in the prophets, and the rise of Judaism. There are books pertaining to that period such as the Books of Maccabees, but i have never considered them to be prophetic. YHWH stopped speaking to the people until the days of Christ as a fetus. The High Priests became political appointees of Rome, etc.

Why did YHWH allow that? For one thing I believe there are only so many foreordained to be representatives. 

[CV75]

21 hours ago, changed said:

The apostasy is very troubling to me.  Did God really turn his back on the entire world - turn his back on innocent children - for years and years and years?  Did he really leave the world in darkness?  How could this be loving or just or merciful?  

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." God died in the earth, and so did His  Church organization, but there is a great reality beyond that that could not be realized in either the earth or heaven had those essential steps not been taken.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, changed said:

 

Is this life a place to learn (in which case we need teachers - need reliable apostles etc.) ... or perhaps learning does not require a teacher - just the university of life?

or is this life primarily a test (in which case the teaching is already done, and no teacher is needed)?

Those are deep and important questions Changed. Here is my answer for myself. Life is both. Where would I be without my great and perfect teacher, Yeshua? As infants we do not come into this world ready to be tested. We learn from life. In the course of my life I have taken several turns which have an enormous impact on my life. Why did this happen? The first was because I didn't understand the trinity from a scriptural standpoint. As a young Baptist boy I read too many things in the Bible that just didn't mesh with what I was taught about the trinity. Should I believe what men were teaching me, or what I accepted as the word of God? When my father invited over some LDS missionaries, they answered my questions. I became excited about the gospel again. Where would I have been without those teachers? We learn from the truths in the world God has sent man by His seers and prophets, and then we get tested on those truths - whether we will live according to them when push comes to shove, or whether we won't. Those who keep following the truths gain in authority - usually in ways opposite the world. Even Yeshua had His trials. He was sent to teach men who weren't terribly faithful. He molded them into fishers of men. Sometimes God does leave us to our own devices. What kind of test is it, if the teacher is handing out all the answers at our whim? Life can be a trying and painful experience, but we become stronger and better people by learning how to overcome it, and are promised that they who overcome it, shall inherit all things.  These are the people God makes His leaders. How can you inherit all things, if you have not experienced and overcome all things, and know how to teach others how to overcome them? 

Edited October 2, 2018 by RevTestament

[Gray]

22 hours ago, changed said:

The apostasy is very troubling to me.  Did God really turn his back on the entire world - turn his back on innocent children - for years and years and years?  Did he really leave the world in darkness?  How could this be loving or just or merciful?  

I cannot have faith in a restoration without first justifying the apostasy.  

The question is apostasy away from what? That implies there was some Christian orthodoxy and consistent priesthood doctrine in the early church - that didn't actually exist UNTIL the so-called apostasy.

[changed]

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

You are welcome. 

Against the eternal perspective of the Plan of Salvation as the LDS understand it, living and dying without the church is simply a matter of different timing, not eternal denial for lack of opportunity.  The way I see it, mercy is the keynote.  The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead is a formal part of our scriptures, the Harrowing of Hell is a longstanding Christian tradition, the preaching of the Gospel to the dead is in the Bible, the vicarious ordinances has a viable theological background, and, few, if any rivals among any other faith tradition.

An inevitable consequence of the longing for perfection and the ideal is that imperfection, and only that, becomes significant and decisive.  The longest and darkest and most miserable experiences of my life have been when my wife falls into the mode of seeing my imperfections as the only significant and decisive thing about me.  There is a huge difference between asking what is Real and what is Perfect or Ideal.  The very real qualities and virtues of the apostles and prophets are there to see and value as significant and important, but if the question is perfection none of that matters.   Kuhn observes that "anomaly emerges against the background of expectation."  That means if you demand perfection, only imperfection is decisive.  And this colors our experience of life, changes what we see, and how we feel.  The single most important paragraph I have ever read on this issue is from Betty Edwards in a classic book on art called "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"

We don't necessarily see things as they are, but we assign value and significance against a background of expectation.  I learned many years ago that when I run across something I did not expect, it is always important to ask, "What should I expect?"  This amounts to removing a beam from my own eye first, that I might then "see clearly."

If I do not expect the prophets and apostles to be perfect, then I can see those imperfections as just the run of the mill "arm of the flesh", natural human weaknesses, as formally and bluntly stated in D&C 1 as exactly what I should expect from them, and not as the only things about them that matter.  Most of the time my wife says, "I put up with your inconsistencies because your consistencies are important to me," and that makes a huge difference in the quality of our lives.  

Are my current set of expectations beyond repentance and correction?  Or should I be willing to tolerate a bit of humanity in other people?  Am I so perfect now that I can take the role of God and presume that I can infallibly judge not only the prophets and apostles, past and present, but also God?  Or, might I have a bit to learn?  There is a crucial difference between telling God, "That can't be right!" and asking God, like Abraham, "Is this right?"

The film Tomorrowland did not do well at the box office, but I liked it, especially for the theme of feedback loops in human experience.  A key is given at the start in the retelling of a Native American myth that every person has two wolves inside fighting for control, one dark and one light.  The question is, "Which one wins?"  And the answer is, "Which ever one you feed."

I also disagree with the priesthood policy, but it's not the only thing that matters.  I also have taken the time to understand it historical context, in the set of expectations and cultural mythos that the LDS inherited, and did not invent, let alone receive by revelation.  And I was in Salt Lake City in July 1978 and at the moment I read the headline in the morning paper at Shauna's apartment, I heard car horns honking in the streets.  There was genuine jubilation and excitement.

I have a friend whose wife left him for a series of lesbian relationships, one lasting more than a decade, and he had a discussion with his worried daughters explaining that in their case, it would not have applied.  Indeed, he had been inactive for a while, and he saw the moral outrage over the policy as largely manufactured, and that prompted to come back to activity.  It happens that his ex-wife left that life style a few years back and is now in a temple marriage.  I also have an ex-sister in law still in that lifestyle, and I know her two sons.

I have also considered carefully an aspect of sexuality that is typically absent from most discussions, I think because it so undercuts the dominant narrative that to even mention it as a possible factor in behavior unsettles the grooves of normal discussions:

http://squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleChristensenRashomon.html

Yes, at every point, we are accountable for what we know, and but since all have come short of the glory of God, we are all needful of repentance.   We ought to continually seek greater light and knowledge, which means we all ought to change, and to expect change, and accept the need for change.

God grand me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Serenity comes with faith.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

 

Expectations - vs. fear.  Fear that children are not mercifully educated, fear of abuse, faith vs. fear... Fear that some trials do not seem to refine... fear that God only loves a small little flock and not the rest of us...  not sure how to get rid of fear.  I know, faith not fear - I have hope, but not faith.

Imperfect apostles - just started a new thread.

[changed]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

These are the people God makes His leaders. How can you inherit all things, if you have not experienced and overcome all things, and know how to teach others how to overcome them? 

It seems like most church leaders have led pretty normal lives - without huge challenges.  

When I think of people who have overcome much, I think of refugees, I think of people like Gilbert Tuhabonye (was able to meet him last week), of Yousafzai, Kailash Satyarthi, of Victor Frankl ... would love to hear some real stories of overcoming at GC.  

[RevTestament]

16 minutes ago, changed said:

It seems like most church leaders have led pretty normal lives - without huge challenges.  

When I think of people who have overcome much, I think of refugees, I think of people like Gilbert Tuhabonye (was able to meet him last week), of Yousafzai, Kailash Satyarthi, of Victor Frankl ... would love to hear some real stories of overcoming at GC.  

Me too. Stories I hear of their personal lives are often the most memorable. Stories of converts to the Church of Jesus Christ are usually among my favorites for these reasons. Usually, they have overcome much to join the Church. Although, in many ways my life was one of ease, in many ways it was difficult. i had some difficult surgeries, and was a skinny kid who got taunted in High School. I identified with the hard questions of Joseph Smith, and the jeering he went through to bring the Book of Mormon to us. I think many Americans raised in the Church over the last century have had a relative life of ease other than serving in wars. The Lord has indeed given the Gentiles the double as He said He would. But hardship breeds courage, ingenuity, and other positive attributes. Learning to overcome hardships is inspiring to others. And now I am reminded of a joke... the only one I can ever seem to remember over the course of my pathetic life..... about an immigrant who goes through a long story of tragedies and difficulties, and dreams of coming to America, only to fall from the mast of his ship and go splat on the deck at the end of his long journey.... but of course he gets up, and responds to the queries of how he could possibly get up by saying "I am used to hardships."