So, why get baptized for DEAD people

[LittleNipper]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Nipper, you mentioned goat breeding.  I am curious about what you meant by that and if you believe peeled sticks helped Jacob build his flocks up.

I am not mocking.  I seriously want to know how you believe it works given the description in the Bible.

Actually, I believed it worked under the circumstances. God had HIS hand in it and was seeing that Jacob would get payment for all the work he'd been doing for Laban.

Edited October 31, 2018 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Still really avoids the questions. None of the NT existed when Jesus was reading from the scriptures. The Catholic Church - was the main church for several centuries. They had a concerted effort to wipe out heresy, but more importantly, through the efforts of the Catholic Church, we have the Bible today. The only people maintaining scripture was the Catholic Church. The Protestants sure were not around then. Which brings me to another question (given that you seem to wander I will do the same), by what authority do Protestant churches exist? Who gave them the authority to make their own churches? Apparently, each and every one of them is the result of man's desire to create a church that fits their own wants and needs. None of them claim a restoration - they all just popped up by following a single man's vision of what the church should be. 

You use a scripture that was created by the Catholic Church, yet you deny them as the true church. The reasons for leaving the CC are many, but none of them really exist today. You just choose to follow after the teachings of man rather than that of God. 

The NT existed in the very teaching of CHRIST to HIS Apostles, and the Holy Spirit was sent back to these men so that they would remember what had been said by CHRIST when necessary. The Jews have spent several thousand years maintaining the integrity of the OT, and yet they were not "saved" individuals perse. The Romans constructed roads that the Apostles& disciples of CHRIST used to travel and do mission work, yet the ROMANS were pagan. Protestant churches exist entirely by the authority of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. They contain part of the body of all believers. They are part of the bride of CHRIST. GOD has given Protestants a job to do and that is to bring Christianity in line with Bible teaching. Yes there are many denominations. Some of these denominations exist solely as the result of being from another country. The Huguenots are French Protestants --- the Puritans  were English Protestants. The Moravians were German Protestants. There might exist a small group of believers that were being shepherded by a particular individual. The Presbyterian church was formed by Calvin, the Lutherans  --- Martin Luther, The Methodists --John Wesley.  God is now dealing with SALVATION on a grand scale with many nations and cultures. 

This involves keeping believers active in HIS WORD. And one way to do that is to allow slight variations between the various groups. This, instead of weakening the various denominations keeps them active in HIS WORD and studying. Christians believe in a TRIUNE GOD. They believe in a  virgin birth. They believe that Jesus died on the cross and arose again. God is not concerned over the color of the sanctuary walls, or if there are chairs instead of pews, or if the windows are stained or clear glass. These are mere style choices. Steeples once were very important because they held the bell/bells to tell time and or call worshipers to services. They also acted as ventilators to siphon off the hot air. Today we have air conditioners and everyone has access to accurate time keepers. 

And actually, Mormonism, though not considered Christian, has greatly encouraged Christians to study and research the Bible for specific answers. The 2 young men coming to the door of a Christian's house becomes a perfect opportunity to witness and share the true meaning of Biblical salvation with non-believers.

Edited October 31, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, LittleNipper said:

The NT existed in the very teaching of CHRIST to HIS Apostles, and the Holy Spirit was sent back to these men so that they would remember what had been said by CHRIST when necessary. The Jews have spent several thousand years maintaining the integrity of the OT, and yet they were not "saved" individuals perse. The Romans constructed roads that the Apostles& disciples of CHRIST used to travel and do mission work, yet the ROMANS were pagan. Protestant churches exist entirely by the authority of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. They contain part of the body of all believers. They are part of the bride of CHRIST. GOD has given Protestants a job to do and that is to bring Christianity in line with Bible teaching. Yes there are many denominations. Some of these denominations exist solely as the result of being from another country. The Huguenots are French Protestants --- the Puritans  were English Protestants. The Moravians were German Protestants. There might exist a small group of believers that were being shepherded by a particular individual. The Presbyterian church was formed by Calvin, the Lutherans  --- Martin Luther, The Methodists --John Wesley.  God is now dealing with SALVATION on a grand scale with many nations and cultures. 

This involves keeping believers active in HIS WORD. And one way to do that is to allow slight variations between the various groups. This, instead of weakening the various denominations keeps them active in HIS WORD and studying. Christians believe in a TRIUNE GOD. They believe in a  virgin birth. They believe that Jesus died on the cross and arose again. God is not concerned over the color of the sanctuary walls, or if there are chairs instead of pews, or if the windows are stained or clear glass. These are mere style choices. Steeples once were very important because they held the bell/bells to tell time and or call worshipers to services. They also acted as ventilators to siphon off the hot air. Today we have air conditioners and everyone has access to accurate time keepers. 

And actually, Mormonism, though not considered Christian, has greatly encouraged Christians to study and research the Bible for specific answers. The 2 young men coming to the door of a Christian's house becomes a perfect opportunity to witness and share the true meaning of Biblical salvation with non-believers.

The differences between the 36,000 Christian denominations is not measured in the color of paint on the walls, the steeples, or if chairs or pews are used. The differences are doctrinal. You seem to be saying that God is a God of chaos - that it really does not matter which church you belong. Am I understanding you correctly? 

You say Protestantism is consists of churches formed by men, but you dodge the question of by what authority these individuals started a new church. Do you really think God started all of them? If God was not behind it then they are churches of men and not organized by God. Your position gets really chaotic very quickly. 

As far as The Church of Jesus Christ goes, I am not sure you offer much truth. We believe that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, that he was crucified for our sins, that he rose the third day and now sits on the right hand of the Father and he will return again one day. It is only in and through the Savior that we are saved. We preach and teach his gospel as he taught it. We know we do because he restored his Church to the earth again and it is organized in the same manner as the ancient church when he was on the earth holding the same priesthood keys. 

[LittleNipper]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

The differences between the 36,000 Christian denominations is not measured in the color of paint on the walls, the steeples, or if chairs or pews are used. The differences are doctrinal. You seem to be saying that God is a God of chaos - that it really does not matter which church you belong. Am I understanding you correctly? 

You say Protestantism is consists of churches formed by men, but you dodge the question of by what authority these individuals started a new church. Do you really think God started all of them? If God was not behind it then they are churches of men and not organized by God. Your position gets really chaotic very quickly. 

As far as The Church of Jesus Christ goes, I am not sure you offer much truth. We believe that Jesus Christ is the only Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, that he was crucified for our sins, that he rose the third day and now sits on the right hand of the Father and he will return again one day. It is only in and through the Savior that we are saved. We preach and teach his gospel as he taught it. We know we do because he restored his Church to the earth again and it is organized in the same manner as the ancient church when he was on the earth holding the same priesthood keys. 

There are specific Biblical aspects which ALL Bible Believing Christians eventually will come to adhere to. Any denomination which doesn't hold to these specific biblical details will eventually lose the member of attender which has become born-again to a more biblically conservative church. These absolutes are as follows:  JESUS is the Messiah and is in fact God in the flesh. Only faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST saves anyone from eternal separation from GOD. Jesus was born to a virgin and was both GOD and man. The Bible is the inspired word of GOD and is entirely trustworthy --- historically and spiritually. GOD has always existed and is the ONLY GOD to ever exist and ever will exist. The Church is the body of all believers and the head of this Church is the LORD JESUS CHRIST and no one else. There is only ONE GOD anf this GOD exists in the form of THREE beings -- FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT.

Just as GOD wrote the Holy Bible through the human element, GOD has inspired and incorporated select men (through the motivation of the Holy Spirit) to work and minister among HIS elect. GOD also has directed the saved to spread the Gospel message to everyone who will listen. 

Edited November 1, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

There are specific Biblical aspects which ALL Bible Believing Christians eventually will come to adhere to. Any denomination which doesn't hold to these specific biblical details will eventually lose the member of attender which has become born-again to a more biblically conservative church. These absolutes are as follows:  JESUS is the Messiah and is in fact God in the flesh. Only faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST saves anyone from eternal separation from GOD. Jesus was born to a virgin and was both GOD and man. The Bible is the inspired word of GOD and is entirely trustworthy --- historically and spiritually. GOD has always existed and is the ONLY GOD to ever exist and ever will exist. The Church is the body of all believers and the head of this Church is the LORD JESUS CHRIST and no one else. There is only ONE GOD anf this GOD exists in the form of THREE beings -- FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT.

Just as GOD wrote the Holy Bible through the human element, GOD has inspired and incorporated select men (through the motivation of the Holy Spirit) to work and minister among HIS elect. GOD also has directed the saved to spread the Gospel message to everyone who will listen. 

Who came up with this list? I have never seen anything similar in the scriptures; thus that is out. What group of humans developed this list?

[LittleNipper]

8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Who came up with this list? I have never seen anything similar in the scriptures; thus that is out. What group of humans developed this list?

I compiled the list from my own study. I mean when Peter says, "You are the CHRIST the SON of the living GOD." And then Jesus replies. "Blessed are you Peter and upon this foundation do I build my CHURCH!" Jesus wasn't speaking of Peter but what Peter just said! So a doctrine of the CHURCH is that JESUS is the Messiah and THE SON of GOD. And also this revelation comes from GOD. This is obviously very important or Jesus wouldn't have said anything. 

I mean, I firmly believe the FLOOD was an historical event, and that Jonah was swallowed by great fish, and that Job was spoken to by GOD from a tornado. And Moses crossed over on dry land and received the tablets from GOD. I believe EVERYTHING the Bible says is something GOD wants us to know, but it comes down to what was GOD going to do with regard to Adam's sin? Who is Jesus? Why do we sin and what is it?

The scriptures are for study to show one approved unto GOD. Make your list but realize that when Jesus was saying I AM -- He was ticking off sadducees, pharisees, and scribes --- because they knew exactly the implications! 

Edited November 1, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Anakin7]

23 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

The Methodist church was a fine church. I find that depending on the congregation one Methodist church can be very evangelical and hold to inerrancy of the Bible Text in general (6 day Creation, Flood, Jesus being Virgin born, etc.); while another is very "MODERN" having thrown John Wesley (to one degree or another) out the window along with marriage being only male and female, male minister, Adam being uniquely created on the 6th day, etc...  I did attend a Calvary Bible Protestant  church for a time and they had indeed split from the UNITED Methodist Assembly due to its "modern" interpretations beginning about the 1930's.

I was raised on the King James Version, and find it very adequate and having a pleasant wording/sentence structure. It also allowed for responsive readings by congregants when it was the sole version. However, I do believe that some of the newer interpretations can help in providing a clearer understanding or even another viewpoint. This helps greatly when regarding issues like baptism for the dead, and the place of water baptism. How long have you been a Mormon believer. 

    LittleNipper thank you for your response, I appreciate it. Sorry, I have been busy with True Grace Empowered labors of love To God The Father The Monarch Of The Universe in the Name of Christ Jesus The Vice Monarch Of The Universe by way of The Awesome Holy Ghost/Spirit The Awesome Sanctifier/Testator of The Universe and to my fellow man [and my awesome wife] .  I have great respect for John and Charles Wesley [ I have read where Brigham Young stated that John Wesley was as godly as any man that has ever walked the earth ]. I have visited 2 separate Methodist church meetings, 1 did nothing for me, it seemed more of a social club than a church, the other was great, pastor [whom I am friends with] great energetic sermons with love behind the message and I enjoy fellowship with the congregation, if I was not LDS I would strongly consider attending his church.  I agree with your assessment regarding the the 2 schools of methodism [church]. Yes some Methodist churches seem to have abandoned and thrown John and Charles Wesley under the Bus in regards to there teachings. I use a # of translations - KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, New Oxford Annotated Bible - which I find to be the most honest professor/scholar/theological objective translation.

    In response to your inquiry about how long I have been a Mormon believer,  First I am a Disciple of The Vice Monarch, Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master, Christ Jesus [ Some days I am more of a Disciple than other days ], I go by the idiom titles of Believer, Christian, Disciple, Seeker, Latter Day Saint, Saint. Mormon. I am an LDS, Saint, Christian, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior. I was Baptized Methodist infancy and a young man, as a young teenager [14-15 yrs of age] I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior in a local park here in the city where I live and was baptized by a Fundamentalist Independent Baptist minister/preacher. I became LDS while in High School while I played Football/ Basketball/ Track for my High School teams. I took the LDS discussions and was baptized in water and had hands put on my head for the gift of The Holy Ghost. 

    After High school I received anti LDS materials, 1 by a young christian girl while I was working for Sears- a cassette tape by "Dr" Walter Martin former CRI Director entitled "The Maze Of Mormonism". I listened to It and became a prayer warrior and did research on his claims at a local Methodist Seminary and I did research on  him and found answers and found out he was not being truthful about himself and not acting toward 2 of his wives in a christlike manner and way. 2- I received anti LDS polemical papers from a local Barber who found out my church affiliation , did research on those as well and found errors/mistakes..

    I have family members, relatives, friends who are Roman Catholic Orthodox, Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodox, Greek Catholic Orthodox, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Reformed, Calvary Chapel, Street Preachers, House Churches, Churches of Christ, Pentecostal, At Home Christian, Jews, Moslems, Atheists, Humanists. I have at tented the afore mentioned Churches Church services, Bible studies, activities. I myself am no Brainiac christian, just s simple child of God Trying to get home in my True Grace Empowered Journey, Quest, Search. so that is a little about me , I have had a # of Grace empowered Grace blessings and experiences in my life. May you have a True Grace Empowered day/night.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint/Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder Kryptonian, Warrior.

     

Edited November 1, 2018 by Anakin7

[Vance]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I compiled the list from my own study.

So, it is just your opinion.

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

I mean when Peter says, "You are the CHRIST the SON of the living GOD." And then Jesus replies. "Blessed are you Peter and upon this foundation do I build my CHURCH!"

You missed the most important part.

Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Jesus wasn't speaking of Peter but what Peter just said!

Nope, he was talking about revelation from God.

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

So a doctrine of the CHURCH is that JESUS is the Messiah and THE SON of GOD.

True, but...

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

And also this revelation comes from GOD.

There you go.  REVELATION from God is the rock that the church is built upon.

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

This is obviously very important or Jesus wouldn't have said anything. 

Yup, the rock of revelation.  That is where Paul got the gospel he preached.  

Quote

 

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

  12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

Notice that he didn't get it from the Bible.

[Jane_Doe]

15 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

There are specific Biblical aspects which ALL Bible Believing Christians eventually will come to adhere to. Any denomination which doesn't hold to these specific biblical details will eventually lose the member of attender which has become born-again to a more biblically conservative church. These absolutes are as follows:  JESUS is the Messiah and is in fact God in the flesh. Only faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST saves anyone from eternal separation from GOD. Jesus was born to a virgin and was both GOD and man. The Bible is the inspired word of GOD and is entirely trustworthy --- historically and spiritually. GOD has always existed and is the ONLY GOD to ever exist and ever will exist. The Church is the body of all believers and the head of this Church is the LORD JESUS CHRIST and no one else. There is only ONE GOD anf this GOD exists in the form of THREE beings -- FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT.

Just as GOD wrote the Holy Bible through the human element, GOD has inspired and incorporated select men (through the motivation of the Holy Spirit) to work and minister among HIS elect. GOD also has directed the saved to spread the Gospel message to everyone who will listen. 

Psst--  LDS people 100% believe  JESUS is the Messiah and is in fact God in the flesh. Only faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST saves anyone from eternal separation from GOD. Jesus was born to a virgin and was both GOD and man. The Bible is the inspired word of GOD.   GOD has always existed and is the ONLY GOD to ever exist and ever will exist. The Church is the body of all believers and the head of this Church is the LORD JESUS CHRIST and no one else. There is only ONE GOD anf this GOD exists in the form of THREE beings -- FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT.

[LittleNipper]

21 hours ago, Vance said:

So, it is just your opinion.

You missed the most important part.

Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Nope, he was talking about revelation from God.

True, but...

There you go.  REVELATION from God is the rock that the church is built upon.

Yup, the rock of revelation.  That is where Paul got the gospel he preached.  

Notice that he didn't get it from the Bible.

Sir, Paul wrote the Book --- and preached his conversion story. And yes, it was divine revelation. Because CHRIST was establishing HIS CHURCH and using these selected, such as Peter, James, Paul, John to be the witnesses of HIS Gospel message which HE wanted spread throughout the world.

Paul Tells of His Conversion Acts 22: 

12 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me lin the Hebrew language,1 ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

And you must remember that these individuals were very well aware of the OLD TESTAMENT and the prophecies regarding the MESSIAH (or at the very least Jesus explained these to them).

Edited November 2, 2018 by LittleNipper

[LittleNipper]

21 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Psst--  LDS people 100% believe  JESUS is the Messiah and is in fact God in the flesh. Only faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST saves anyone from eternal separation from GOD. Jesus was born to a virgin and was both GOD and man. The Bible is the inspired word of GOD.   GOD has always existed and is the ONLY GOD to ever exist and ever will exist. The Church is the body of all believers and the head of this Church is the LORD JESUS CHRIST and no one else. There is only ONE GOD and this GOD exists in the form of THREE beings -- FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT.

YOU say you believe this; however, you may wish to to run this by your church authorities before you speak for the rest of them --- because this is the doctrine of the TRINITY --- plan and simple.

Edited November 2, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

YOU say you believe this; however, you may wish to to run this by your church authorities before you speak for the rest of them --- because this is the doctrine of the TRINITY --- plan and simple.

Actually the below is the doctrine of the Trinity.  You'll notice how it is not plain or simple, and adds a bunch of stuff not included in your previous post.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved"  

--- The Athanasian Creed, written by men, 500 AD.

[Vance]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

Sir, Paul wrote the Book --- and preached his conversion story. And yes, it was divine revelation. Because CHRIST was establishing HIS CHURCH and using these selected, such as Peter, James, Paul, John to be the witnesses of HIS Gospel message which HE wanted spread throughout the world.

Paul Tells of His Conversion Acts 22: 

12 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me lin the Hebrew language,1 ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

You didn't emphasis the more important part.

"that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

And you must remember that these individuals were very well aware of the OLD TESTAMENT and the prophecies regarding the MESSIAH (or at the very least Jesus explained these to them).

So, what is your point?

Nowhere is Paul claiming that the Bible is or was the source of the gospel.  When he refers to the scriptures he is referring to the Hebrew scriptures NOT the New Testament.  The New Testament did not exist at the time.

So, again, what is your point?

[Vance]

3 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

YOU say you believe this; however, you may wish to to run this by your church authorities before you speak for the rest of them --- because this is the doctrine of the TRINITY --- plan and simple.

It is rather obvious, to those who know, that that was NOT the Trinity, but it is consistent with Latter-Day Saint doctrine.

[LittleNipper]

9 hours ago, Vance said:

It is rather obvious, to those who know, that that was NOT the Trinity, but it is consistent with Latter-Day Saint doctrine.

It is obvious that Mormons have no clue only FEELINGS in their bosom. 

[LittleNipper]

9 hours ago, Vance said:

You didn't emphasis the more important part.

"that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.

So, what is your point?

Nowhere is Paul claiming that the Bible is or was the source of the gospel.  When he refers to the scriptures he is referring to the Hebrew scriptures NOT the New Testament.  The New Testament did not exist at the time.

So, again, what is your point?

 

10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Actually the below is the doctrine of the Trinity.  You'll notice how it is not plain or simple, and adds a bunch of stuff not included in your previous post.

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved"  

--- The Athanasian Creed, written by men, 500 AD.

 

 

We exist in a three-dimensional world. All physical objects have a certain height, width, and depth. One person can appear, act or even sound like someone else. But a person cannot actually be the same as another person. They are distinct individuals. God, however, exists without the limitations of a three-dimensional universe. He is spirit. And he is infinitely more complex than we. That is why Jesus the Son can be different from the Father. And, yet the same.

The Bible clearly speaks of God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. But emphasizes that there exists only ONE God.

If we were to use math, it would be 1x1x1=1. God is a triune God.

Thus the term "Tri" meaning three, and "Unity" meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is three "Persons" who have the same essence of deity.

Some have tried to provide illustrations for the Trinity, such as H₂O being water, ice and steam (all different forms, but all are H₂O). No human illustration is going to be perfect.

But from the very beginning we see God as a Trinity. In the book of Genesis, the first book in the Bible, God says, "Let us make man in our image…male and female he created them." You see here a mixture of plural and singular pronouns.

When Moses asked God for his name, God replied, "I am" - eternally existing. Jesus used the same phrase numerous times. "I am the light of the world..." "I am the bread of life..." "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Abraham is someone mentioned in Genesis, thousands of years before Jesus came to earth. Yet, Jesus said of himself, "Before Abraham was born, I am." The Jews understood fully what Jesus was saying because they picked up stones to kill him for "blasphemy" - claiming to be God. Jesus has always existed.

Jesus was so clear about his unique relationship with the Father. This is why, “the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God.”

For all of eternity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been in relationship and communication with each other, yet not as three gods…as one God

Upon earth, Jesus continued to talk to the Father, and the Father and Spirit continued to communicate with him. Following are some Scriptures that shows God is one, in Trinity:

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."

There is no God but one.
And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Jesus said: "I and the Father are one."

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."

If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."

And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God."

[Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him."

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by LittleNipper

[Calm]

Quote

If we were to use math, it would be 1x1x1=1. God is a triune God.

That isn't what you think it is.

It has nothing to do with 3 things/persons somehow being combined into one thing, instead it is just one thing being counted once at a time.  It  could be written 1x1 or 1x1x1x1 infinite times=1.

It means one thing counted once and then counted again and one more time.  One counted by itself is always 1.

Or 1 contains 1 of itself and is contained once again.

Or think of it as volume with sides of a height of 1, a length of 1, and a depth of 1.  It is always just one cube on its own, not somehow three lines warped into a cube.

In essence it is saying the Father is the Father is the Father, if you want to equate 1 to God.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

10 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

The Athanasian Creed, written by men, 500 AD.

Your entire Book of Mormon was written by men, yes? And all of your general conference talks?

What, exactly, wasn't written by men in the LDS church?

Edited November 3, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[Anakin7]

    Book of Mormon was written by ancient Prophets who had lived in the middle east who came to and lived in central/south America. General Conference talks are written with True Grace empowerment.

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

 

[Anakin7]

4 hours ago, LittleNipper said:

 

 

 

We exist in a three-dimensional world. All physical objects have a certain height, width, and depth. One person can appear, act or even sound like someone else. But a person cannot actually be the same as another person. They are distinct individuals. God, however, exists without the limitations of a three-dimensional universe. He is spirit. And he is infinitely more complex than we. That is why Jesus the Son can be different from the Father. And, yet the same.

The Bible clearly speaks of God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. But emphasizes that there exists only ONE God.

If we were to use math, it would be 1x1x1=1. God is a triune God.

Thus the term "Tri" meaning three, and "Unity" meaning one, Tri+Unity = Trinity. It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is three "Persons" who have the same essence of deity.

Some have tried to provide illustrations for the Trinity, such as H₂O being water, ice and steam (all different forms, but all are H₂O). No human illustration is going to be perfect.

But from the very beginning we see God as a Trinity. In the book of Genesis, the first book in the Bible, God says, "Let us make man in our image…male and female he created them." You see here a mixture of plural and singular pronouns.

When Moses asked God for his name, God replied, "I am" - eternally existing. Jesus used the same phrase numerous times. "I am the light of the world..." "I am the bread of life..." "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Abraham is someone mentioned in Genesis, thousands of years before Jesus came to earth. Yet, Jesus said of himself, "Before Abraham was born, I am." The Jews understood fully what Jesus was saying because they picked up stones to kill him for "blasphemy" - claiming to be God. Jesus has always existed.

Jesus was so clear about his unique relationship with the Father. This is why, “the Jewish leaders tried all the harder to find a way to kill him. For he not only broke the Sabbath, he called God his Father, thereby making himself equal with God.”

For all of eternity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always been in relationship and communication with each other, yet not as three gods…as one God

Upon earth, Jesus continued to talk to the Father, and the Father and Spirit continued to communicate with him. Following are some Scriptures that shows God is one, in Trinity:

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God."

There is no God but one.
And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he [John] saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Jesus said: "I and the Father are one."

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me."

If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for that which has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."

And the angel answered and said to her [Mary], "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God."

[Jesus speaking to His disciples] "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." ... "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him."

 

    http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/07/answering-common-example-of-trinitarian.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/05/1x1x11-trinity-fallacy.html 

    http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/04/verses-refuting-consubstantiality-of.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/04/illogical-attempt-at-logic-refuted.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/10/robert-l-millet-on-functional-and.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/12/origens-theology-on-unity-and-plurality.html 

   If a link does not work type the addresses in upper toolbar where it should appear.

   The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

Edited November 3, 2018 by Anakin7

[LittleNipper]

6 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/07/answering-common-example-of-trinitarian.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/05/1x1x11-trinity-fallacy.html 

    http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/04/verses-refuting-consubstantiality-of.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/04/illogical-attempt-at-logic-refuted.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/10/robert-l-millet-on-functional-and.html  http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2017/12/origens-theology-on-unity-and-plurality.html 

   If a link does not work type the addresses in upper toolbar where it should appear.

   The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

When God created you and me, He designed us to be ONE human being existing as ONE person. A human is WHAT we are, but a person is WHO we are. God isn’t like us. There is no one else like God, and one of the biggest differences about God and us is that while we exist as ONE human being existing as ONE person, He has always existed as ONE God living in THREE persons. The THREE persons are all different, (so the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit), and yet all THREE persons are fully GOD. (That is, each person fully possesses the nature or essence of GOD). That’s one of the ways that God is completely different from us. While we exist as only one person, he exists as three. It cannot be entirely comprehended because God is so awesome that we can’t fully understand everything about Him.

[LittleNipper]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

That isn't what you think it is.

It has nothing to do with 3 things/persons somehow being combined into one thing, instead it is just one thing being counted once at a time.  It  could be written 1x1 or 1x1x1x1 infinite times=1.

It means one thing counted once and then counted again and one more time.  One counted by itself is always 1.

Or 1 contains 1 of itself and is contained once again.

Or think of it as volume with sides of a height of 1, a length of 1, and a depth of 1.  It is always just one cube on its own, not somehow three lines warped into a cube.

In essence it is saying the Father is the Father is the Father, if you want to equate 1 to God.

There is no other GOD.  The is only one GOD. Yet the Father is GOD and the Son is GOD and the Holy Spirit is GOD --- They are GOD.  1 GOD plus 1 GOD  plus 1 GOD still only equates GOD. It is like an egg. There is a Shell, and a Egg White, and a Yoke. Together they equal one Egg and not three. Each one individually is still Egg. EGG SHELL, EGG WHITE, EGG YOKE. I believe GOD has provided us with illustrations, but NO ONE CAN COMPREHEND GOD---- NOT EVEN MORMONS. Mormonism has demonstrated itself to be one of the most complex convoluted belief systems ever devised by humans: Special underwear, special handshakes, special rooms, special building, special marriage rituals, special Prophets, special books even beside the book of Mormon --- as if that wasn't enough! 

Salvation is such a simple thing and heaven is attainable by everyone without being Mormonized --- however, try telling that to a group of Mormons. I get far better results individually. Then the issue seems to be---"but I work a Mormon farm and I FEEL I'd lose my position as manager."   or "I FEEL my family would be devastated..." or "I FEEL I'd lose my friends?" or "I hold a position in the church and I FEEL obligated."  

[theplains]

On 9/30/2018 at 9:55 PM, 3DOP said:

Little Nipper...

Mormons have a better explanation for I Cor 15:29, than any Evangelical explanation with which I am familiar. Mormons have missions to the living without forgetting the dead. One can "worry", to use your expression, about all souls, whether they are alive or dead.

1 Cor. 15:29 is a difficult passage to understand as there are various interpretations so I will quote one
by Matthew Henry. 

But before I do this, I wanted to refer to three Book of Mormon passages which indicate there are no
second chances after death.

Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I 
beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the 
end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, 
if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness 
wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that 
awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say 
this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go 
out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that 
eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even 
until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he 
doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and 
hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final 
state of the wicked."

2 Nephi 9:25 - Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given 
there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; 
and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have 
claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of 
him. For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who 
have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, 
death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless 
torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy 
One of Israel. But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the 
commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth 
the days of his probation, for awful is his state!"

Alma 40:11-14 - "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the 
resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits 
of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits 
of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them 
life. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous 
are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, 
a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, 
and sorrow. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, 
who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; 
for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil 
did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out 
into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and 
this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now 
this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, 
fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they 
remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their 
resurrection."

Now to Matthew Henry:

"He argues for the resurrection, from the case of those who were baptized for the dead (1Co_15:29): 
What shall those do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they baptized 
for the dead? What shall they do if the dead rise not? What have they done? How vain a thing hath 
their baptism been! Must they stand by it, or renounce it? why are they baptized for huper the 
dead, if the dead rise not? tō nekrōn. But what is this baptism for the dead? It is necessary to 
be known, that the apostle's argument may be understood; whether it be only argumentum ad hominem, 
or ad rem; that is, whether it conclude for the thing in dispute universally, or only against the 
particular persons who were baptized for the dead. But who shall interpret this very obscure passage, 
which, though it consists of no more than three words, besides the articles, has had more than three 
times three senses put on it by interpreters? 

It is not agreed what is meant by baptism, whether it is to be taken in a proper or figurative sense, 
and, if in a proper sense, whether it is to be understood or Christian baptism properly so called, 
or some other ablution. And as little is it agreed who are the dead, or in what sense the preposition 
huper is to be taken. Some understand the dead of our Saviour himself; vide Whitby in loc. Why are 
persons baptized in the name of a dead Saviour, a Saviour who remains among the dead, if the dead 
rise not? But it is, I believe, and instance perfectly singular for hoi nekroi to mean no more than 
one dead person; it is a signification which the words have nowhere else. And the hoi baptizomenoi 
(the baptized) seem plainly to mean some particular persons, not Christians in general, which yet 
must be the signification if the hoi nekroi (the dead) be understood of our Saviour. 

Some understand the passage of the martyrs: Why do they suffer martyrdom for their religion? This is 
sometimes called the baptism of blood by ancients, and, by our Saviour himself, baptism indefinitely, 
Mat_20:22; Luk_12:50. But in what sense can those who die martyrs for their religion be said to be 
baptized (that is, die martyrs) for the dead? Some understand it of a custom that was observed, as 
some of the ancients tell us, among many who professed the Christian name in the first ages, of 
baptizing some in the name and stead of catechumens dying without baptism. But this savoured of such 
superstition that, if the custom had prevailed in the church so soon, the apostle would hardly have 
mentioned it without signifying a dislike of it. 

Some understand it of baptizing over the dead, which was a custom, they tell us, that early obtained; 
and this to testify their hope of the resurrection. This sense is pertinent to the apostle's argument, 
but it appears not that any such practice was in use in the apostle's time. Others understand it of 
those who have been baptized for the sake, or on occasion, of the martyrs, that is, the constancy 
with which they died for their religion. Some were doubtless converted to Christianity by observing 
this: and it would have been a vain thing for persons to have become Christians upon this motive, if 
the martyrs, by losing their lives for religion, became utterly extinct, and were to live no more. 
But the church at Corinth had not, in all probability, suffered much persecution at this time, or 
seem many instances of martyrdom among them, nor had many converts been made by the constancy and 
firmness which the martyrs discovered. Not to observe that hoi nekroi seems to be too general an 
expression to mean only the martyred dead. It is as easy an explication of the phrase as any I have 
met with, and as pertinent to the argument, to suppose the hoi nekroi to mean some among the 
Corinthians, who had been taken off by the hand of God. We read that many were sickly among them, and 
many slept (1Co_11:30), because of their disorderly behaviour at the Lord's table. 

These executions might terrify some into Christianity; as the miraculous earthquake did the jailer, 
Act_16:29, Act_16:30, etc. Persons baptized on such an occasion might be properly said to be baptized 
for the dead, that is, on their account. And the hoi baptizomenoi (the baptized) and the hoi nekroi 
(the dead) answer to one another; and upon this supposition the Corinthians could not mistake the 
apostle's meaning. “Now,” says he, “what shall they do, and why were they baptized, if the dead rise 
not? You have a general persuasion that these men have done right, and acted wisely, and as they ought, 
on this occasion; but why, if the dead rise not, seeing they may perhaps hasten their death, by 
provoking a jealous God, and have no hopes beyond it?” But whether this be the meaning, or whatever 
else be, doubtless the apostle's argument was good and intelligible to the Corinthians."

Thanks,
Jim