Slippery Treasures and EModE

[JarMan]

This isn't either of the sources I was referring to earlier, but an additional one I just found. It's from Ezekiel Hopkins' The Vanity of the World, published 1668.

 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

What witnesses say about the plates or other treasure seeking activities and what is inside the Book of Mormon are two different things.

That's true and usually that's my argument. However when you're dealing with the question of authorship it gets more complicated because you're judging how well a theory fits and that demands appeals both to the text and to the context. Put an other way what we're judging is total explanatory power along with more aesthetic judgments like simplicity and so forth. As such correspondence between actions/judgments of the main figures matters a great deal as do missing explanations (such as say how a 17th century document ended up in Joseph Smith's hands).

So I agree with you if we're just talking about the text. If we're talking about the text's providence and origin though I don't think that objection works.

[JarMan]

42 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That's true and usually that's my argument. However when you're dealing with the question of authorship it gets more complicated because you're judging how well a theory fits and that demands appeals both to the text and to the context. Put an other way what we're judging is total explanatory power along with more aesthetic judgments like simplicity and so forth. As such correspondence between actions/judgments of the main figures matters a great deal as do missing explanations (such as say how a 17th century document ended up in Joseph Smith's hands).

So I agree with you if we're just talking about the text. If we're talking about the text's providence and origin though I don't think that objection works.

The discussion we've been having has been about the text. There is a separate discussion that can be had (and has been had) about whether treasure digging practices had anything to do with the gold plates story. I think what's happened a few times in this thread is that people have relied on the gold plates/buried treasure angle to reinforce their assertions that the Book of Mormon text is 19th Century. This is conflating the explanation of the physical plates with an explanation of the content of the Book of Mormon. For the purposes of this thread I think it makes sense to keep those discussions separate.

[Analytics]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 1:52 PM, JarMan said:

You’re conflating things in the Book of Mormon with some of Joseph’s personal endeavors. There’s no paying seers to find treasures in the Book of Mormon. There’s no treasure hunting in the Book of Mormon per se. In the Book of Mormon people were hiding valuables from invading armies. This is an early modern European phenomena but presumably not common in Joseph’s day since there were no invading armies. In the Book of Mormon the people went to uncover their own treasure—not a mysterious abandoned one. When the people couldn’t find their own hidden valuables it was interpreted as God’s punishment for wickedness. This isnt a very good match to Joseph’s treasure seeking activities. But it does fit quite well with early modern activities and ideas. 

15 years ago I bought a house in Maine that had a 20-acre forest in the backyard. One day we were at the town's house of pizza and met a local. We told him where we lived, and he told us there were stories of an old treasure buried in our backyard. My wife got excited about it and suggested that we dig around. I'm serious--this happened in 2003. That incredibly brief and vague story we heard about how there was a treasure buried in the back yard was a lot more exciting than a story would be about how fools had been digging for treasure in the area for hundreds of years.

Anyway, if treasure diggers decided to make up a story about earlier inhabitants of the area, they wouldn't write a story about how people in the ancient past had been digging for treasure. They would write a story about how people in the ancient past had been burying treasure. Stories about treasures that had been buried in the past and were still there are a perfect match for Joseph's treasure seeking activities.

[JarMan]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

15 years ago I bought a house in Maine that had a 20-acre forest in the backyard. One day we were at the town's house of pizza and met a local. We told him where we lived, and he told us there were stories of an old treasure buried in our backyard. My wife got excited about it and suggested that we dig around. I'm serious--this happened in 2003. That incredibly brief and vague story we heard about how there was a treasure buried in the back yard was a lot more exciting than a story would be about how fools had been digging for treasure in the area for hundreds of years.

Anyway, if treasure diggers decided to make up a story about earlier inhabitants of the area, they wouldn't write a story about how people in the ancient past had been digging for treasure. They would write a story about how people in the ancient past had been burying treasure. Stories about treasures that had been buried in the past and were still there are a perfect match for Joseph's treasure seeking activities.

The problem is the buried treasure in the Book of Mormon has slipped away. Like the riches in Proverbs 23:5 that "make themselves wings" and "fly away as an eagle toward heaven" the clear idea here is that the treasure is permanently gone.

Quote

For I will, saith the Lord, that they shall hide up their treasures unto me; and cursed be they who hide not up their treasures unto me; for none hideth up their treasures unto me save it be the righteous; and he that hideth not up his treasures unto me, cursed is he, and also the treasure, and none shall redeem it because of the curse of the land.

 

[Exiled]

9 minutes ago, JarMan said:

The problem is the buried treasure in the Book of Mormon has slipped away. Like the riches in Proverbs 23:5 that "make themselves wings" and "fly away as an eagle toward heaven" the clear idea here is that the treasure is permanently gone.

 

Quote

Helaman 13:18 And it shall come to pass, saith the Lord of Hosts, yea, our great and true God, that whoso shall hide up treasures in the earth shall find them again no more, because of the great curse of the land, save he be a righteous man and shall hide it up unto the Lord.

Only the righteous will be able to find the hidden treasures. This is why JS and Co could never find the supposed treasures on their various hunts, because they weren't righteous enough.  It seems like this is an apology for JS's treasure hunting that he put in the book.

[JarMan]

20 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Only the righteous will be able to find the hidden treasures. This is why JS and Co could never find the supposed treasures on their various hunts, because they weren't righteous enough.  It seems like this is an apology for JS's treasure hunting that he put in the book.

The righteous find their own treasure. The unrighteous lose it forever and "none shall redeem it". That means there's nothing left behind for Joseph to find.

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

The problem is the buried treasure in the Book of Mormon has slipped away. Like the riches in Proverbs 23:5 that "make themselves wings" and "fly away as an eagle toward heaven" the clear idea here is that the treasure is permanently gone.

Is that really a problem? Slipping treasure sounds like the excuse used for not being able to retrieve the treasure the seer stone indicated was there.

[JarMan]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Is that really a problem? Slipping treasure sounds like the excuse used for not being able to retrieve the treasure the seer stone indicated was there.

Let me see if I understand the argument. Joseph was involved in treasure seeking, but the treasure didn't always show up where the seer stone said it should. He had to justify the failure in his abilities to his treasure seeking buddies so he came up with the idea that the treasure physically moved after they started digging. Perhaps he was saying that because of their unworthiness, they had caused the treasure to slip away. If only they hadn't been such scoundrels they would have had more success.

This sounds reasonable on some level. But I don't think the word slippery is used in the Book of Mormon in the sense of physically moving, like a wet bar of soap in the shower. I understand it to mean ethereally slippery--as in it disappears into nothing. This is the same sense in Proverbs 23:5. It is also the same sense used in several early modern works I found searching EEBO. Money is like that. One day you get your paycheck and two weeks later you're wondering where it all went. I imagine this is a universal experience.

[Analytics]

20 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Let me see if I understand the argument. Joseph was involved in treasure seeking, but the treasure didn't always show up where the seer stone said it should. He had to justify the failure in his abilities to his treasure seeking buddies so he came up with the idea that the treasure physically moved after they started digging. Perhaps he was saying that because of their unworthiness, they had caused the treasure to slip away. If only they hadn't been such scoundrels they would have had more success.

This sounds reasonable on some level. But I don't think the word slippery is used in the Book of Mormon in the sense of physically moving, like a wet bar of soap in the shower. I understand it to mean ethereally slippery--as in it disappears into nothing. This is the same sense in Proverbs 23:5. It is also the same sense used in several early modern works I found searching EEBO. Money is like that. One day you get your paycheck and two weeks later you're wondering where it all went. I imagine this is a universal experience.

I took 2 minutes to look for a reference, and Porter Rockwell is quoted as saying that he overheard Lucy Mack Smith telling Porter's mother how Joseph would be digging and, "the spades often struck the iron sides of the treasure chest, and how it was charmed away, now six inches this side, now four feet deeper, and again completely out of reach."

So, the story was that Joseph Smith's abilities to see where buried treasure was hidden was actually proven true--they actually touched the treasure chests before it literally slipped away. Did this happen because of their own unworthiness? Or was it because of the unworthiness of their employer? Or was it because the treasure itself was cursed? Who is to say. As with all matters of faith, there is no evidence that he really didn't see the treasure and that the treasure really didn't charm to a different spot the moment before it could be retrieved. Did they convince others this was really happening? Did they convince themselves?

[JarMan]

17 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I took 2 minutes to look for a reference, and Porter Rockwell is quoted as saying that he overheard Lucy Mack Smith telling Porter's mother how Joseph would be digging and, "the spades often struck the iron sides of the treasure chest, and how it was charmed away, now six inches this side, now four feet deeper, and again completely out of reach."

So, the story was that Joseph Smith's abilities to see where buried treasure was hidden was actually proven true--they actually touched the treasure chests before it literally slipped away. Did this happen because of their own unworthiness? Or was it because of the unworthiness of their employer? Or was it because the treasure itself was cursed? Who is to say. As with all matters of faith, there is no evidence that he really didn't see the treasure and that the treasure really didn't charm to a different spot the moment before it could be retrieved. Did they convince others this was really happening? Did they convince themselves?

I'm familiar with stories like this in Joseph's time. What I'm saying is that this isn't what the Book of Mormon is describing.

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, JarMan said:

I'm familiar with stories like this in Joseph's time. What I'm saying is that this isn't what the Book of Mormon is describing.

Isn't the idea that the Book of Mormon is meant to explain how the mysterious buried treasures end up in the hills that the diggers were digging up? I'm reminded of Joseph Smith Sr's comment in the Lapham interviews. This is how Joseph Smith Sr. interpreted the Book of Mormon account of the Lehites arriving in the Promise Land:

"After sailing a long time, [the Lehites] came to land, went on shore, and thence they traveled through boundless forests, until, at length, they came to a country where there were a great many lakes; which country had once been settled by a very large race of men, who were very rich, having a great deal of money. From some unknown cause, this nation had become extinct; "but that money," said Smith, "is here, now, every dollar of it."

Those men buried their wonderful treasures in these cursed hills. But we'll find it!

Of course they could have found an EmodE text describing cursed slippery treasures, and that motivated them to dig.
Or they could have written cursed slippery treasures into the Book of Mormon to justify their digging. 
Either way, they intended to find those treasures.

[JarMan]

23 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Isn't the idea that the Book of Mormon is meant to explain how the mysterious buried treasures end up in the hills that the diggers were digging up? I'm reminded of Joseph Smith Sr's comment in the Lapham interviews. This is how Joseph Smith Sr. interpreted the Book of Mormon account of the Lehites arriving in the Promise Land:

"After sailing a long time, [the Lehites] came to land, went on shore, and thence they traveled through boundless forests, until, at length, they came to a country where there were a great many lakes; which country had once been settled by a very large race of men, who were very rich, having a great deal of money. From some unknown cause, this nation had become extinct; "but that money," said Smith, "is here, now, every dollar of it."

Those men buried their wonderful treasures in these cursed hills. But we'll find it!

Of course they could have found an EmodE text describing cursed slippery treasures, and that motivated them to dig.
Or they could have written cursed slippery treasures into the Book of Mormon to justify their digging. 
Either way, they intended to find those treasures.

It’s not so unreasonable to think JS Sr believed there was Book of Mormon treasure around considering the frequent mention of gold and silver and precious things. But it doesn’t seem reasonable this belief was based on a careful study of Helaman 13 which mentions essentially disappearing treasure that “none shall redeem.”

[Rajah Manchou]

5 minutes ago, JarMan said:

It’s not so unreasonable to think JS Sr believed there was Book of Mormon treasure around considering the frequent mention of gold and silver and precious things. But it doesn’t seem reasonable this belief was based on a careful study of Helaman 13 which mentions essentially disappearing treasure that “none shall redeem.”

It was based on his reading of the Book of Mormon.

[Navidad]

Good evening - I am fascinated by this thread although I understand about 2% of it.  Might I ask a question that all this brought to my mind? As some of you know I am Mennonite. The Pennsylvania Mennonite have a strong folk magic tradition that is often called pow-wowing or braucherie or brauchery - I might not be spelling it exactly. I haven't heard the word in 50 years. We know the Whitmers were of Mennonite stock and were among the founders of the River Brethren. Has there been any research or work done on the possible influence of the Whitmers folk or pow-wow beliefs on Joseph Smith, Cowdery, et al? Any evidence of such a thing? Thanks.....

[Calm]

Wikipedia has the spelling for you:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pow-wow_(folk_magic)

I was hoping they would have the pronunciation audio option  just so you could hear the word again, but unfortunately they do not.

I have not come across it, but I haven't studied that topic in depth.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

On 10/5/2018 at 7:10 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

Isn't the idea that the Book of Mormon is meant to explain how the mysterious buried treasures end up in the hills that the diggers were digging up? I'm reminded of Joseph Smith Sr's comment in the Lapham interviews. This is how Joseph Smith Sr. interpreted the Book of Mormon account of the Lehites arriving in the Promise Land:

"After sailing a long time, [the Lehites] came to land, went on shore, and thence they traveled through boundless forests, until, at length, they came to a country where there were a great many lakes; which country had once been settled by a very large race of men, who were very rich, having a great deal of money. From some unknown cause, this nation had become extinct; "but that money," said Smith, "is here, now, every dollar of it."

Those men buried their wonderful treasures in these cursed hills. But we'll find it!

Of course they could have found an EmodE text describing cursed slippery treasures, and that motivated them to dig.
Or they could have written cursed slippery treasures into the Book of Mormon to justify their digging. 
Either way, they intended to find those treasures.

How reliable do you think Lapham’s memory of a 40-year-old conversation was? Enough to provide a direct quote? Interesting interpolation you made. So much of the narrative about the Book of Mormon content is garbled and twisted. Why do you trust this quote?