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Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

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18 minutes ago, juliann said:

Why in the heck would Bishop Jr. confront her?? Is this the lawyer who couldn't keep his mouth shut originally?

The lawyer son who has represented Joseph Bishop in some contexts is Greg Bishop.  The guy doing the confronting was Steven Bishop, apparently another son.  I don't know if he is a lawyer or not (two lawyers in one family?  Ick!).

And yes, it would have been better for him to not confront her.  But high emotions and all that.  If McKenna Denson deserves some measure of leeway for her antics, then Joseph Bishop's family members probably deserve some, too.  They are in an awful position.

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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32 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I listened with great interest.  Appreciate the commentary.  If there are 6 other victims. Wow. 

I thought she said witnesses and not victims?

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6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I thought she said witnesses and not victims?

If I wrote things down correctly, she stated that there are "6 other witnesses coming forward to testify in court" (inferring they were victims, IMO....but did not use the word "victims").

She also stated there were others who were abused (raped?) in the room in the basement of the MTC  or otherwise abused by Bishop who had taken settlements from the church and signed nondisclosure agreements and they were going to be subpoenaed to testify.

Edited by ALarson
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5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If I wrote things down correctly, she stated that there are "6 other witnesses coming forward to testify in court" (inferring they were victims, IMO....but did not use the word "victims").

She also stated there were others who were abused (raped?) in the room in the basement of the MTC  or otherwise abused by Bishop who had taken settlements from the church and signed nondisclosure agreements and they were going to be subpoenaed to testify.

That makes sense to me. I am certain there are more women and this would explain why no one has gone public. 

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8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If I wrote things down correctly, she stated that there are "6 other witnesses coming forward to testify in court" (inferring they were victims, IMO....but did not use the word "victims").

That's a reasonable inference.  It's unlikely that non-victims were percipient witneses to abuse.

I wonder if most or all of these witnesses are former missionaries who served in Argentina when Joseph Bishop was the mission president down there (she references sister missionaries in Argentina during the recording).  If he accosted them in some way when he was down there in the 70s, and if the Church later found out about it, "covered it up," and nevertheless called him to be the president of the MTC, then that would be . . . bad.

We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

She also stated there were others who were abused (raped?) in the room in the basement of the MTC  or otherwise abused by Bishop who had taken settlements from the church and signed nondisclosure agreements and they were going to be subpoenaed to testify.

Again, we'll have to wait and see.  Given Ms. Denson's history, I'm not particularly inclined to take her say-so as immediately trustworthy.

Thanks,

-Smac

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5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

That would be up to Bishop's local leaders to determine.

As Smac has pointed out, we don't even know if Bishop is capable/competent at this point in his life to take part in a disciplinary council. 

Oh my, after listening to the interview with McKenna, he's very capable.

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41 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That's a reasonable inference.  It's unlikely that non-victims were percipient witneses to abuse.

I wonder if most or all of these witnesses are former missionaries who served in Argentina when Joseph Bishop was the mission president down there (she references sister missionaries in Argentina during the recording).  If he accosted them in some way when he was down there in the 70s, and if the Church later found out about it, "covered it up," and nevertheless called him to be the president of the MTC, then that would be . . . bad.

We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

Again, we'll have to wait and see.  Given Ms. Denson's history, I'm not particularly inclined to take her say-so as immediately trustworthy.

Thanks,

-Smac

What I have found is that NDAs will have likely have "unless court order or subpeana" clause. I would image an NDA would also stipulate "no disclosure whatsoever", so if there are 6 victims each with an NDA, it seems like the only way to know they were victims would be they each would have to violate the NDA.

However, the case is about what was known in 1977 and possibly anytime prior to conduct given rise to the suit,  so it does not seem relevant to Densons case that there were other victims. It is most certainly disgusting and heartwreching and each victim compounds the disgust.

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh my, after listening to the interview with McKenna, he's very capable.

Did he participate in that interview?

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16 hours ago, provoman said:

What I have found is that NDAs will have likely have "unless court order or subpeana" clause. I would image an NDA would also stipulate "no disclosure whatsoever", so if there are 6 victims each with an NDA, it seems like the only way to know they were victims would be they each would have to violate the NDA.

However, the case is about what was known in 1977 and possibly anytime prior to conduct given rise to the suit,  so it does not seem relevant to Densons case that there were other victims. It is most certainly disgusting and heartwreching and each victim compounds the disgust.

But if there were victims in 1977, and if NDAs were signed with the Church, wouldn't that indicate that the Church was aware of Bishops misconduct in the 1970s?  And if the Church was aware of that misconduct against sister missionaries in Argentina, and then proceeded to call him to preside over sister missionaries in the MTC, then might that be relevant to the fraudulent nondisclosure claim?

I'm still struggling with the "inquiry notice" issue in Colosimo.  Not "struggling," really, as I've only reviewed it in passing.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh my, after listening to the interview with McKenna, he's very capable.

She has evaluated his present cognitive state?

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

I think it would really depend on what kind of info is available from the second victim or the third (named but no details).

Assuming Bishop was actually experiencing significant dementia at the time of the recording and police interview (which I think is unlikely, but definitely possible...I am currently ticked off at myself for how much I missed with my mother because I didn't push harder to get info from everyone she was interacting with to see how accurate her memory was or to test her for reading comprehension, etc.), the only solid thing the Church likely has from him is his denials from 2010.

I think .Denson damaged her credibility substantially with the gun threat.  She demonstrated she was willing to lie (assuming the leaders assumed it was a 'joke' when they didn't hear back from police) in an extreme fashion to get attention.  If Bishop was intelligent in his denial (this is a troubled woman, etc. etc, look at all I have done etc. etc.), his denial would easily defeat her accusation if it stood alone, imo.  

So for me, it hinges on what that accusation was from the second victim.  If she was the sister who was suicidal that he took into his home, again he can point at her history as troubled.  And if details weren't shared at the time that would trigger red flags (if both reports being taken to a basement room, that would be a red flag imo; but it is possible the second victim was abused in his home and not in the basement) then he can turn the two reports into well known figures attracting these kinds of claims, two sisters he had to help before because they were troubled demonstrating they are still troubled.

I think she was at her whit's end when no one in the church seemed to care. And the single's ward bishop pretty much threw her story in the trash. 

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50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:
Quote

That would be up to Bishop's local leaders to determine.

As Smac has pointed out, we don't even know if Bishop is capable/competent at this point in his life to take part in a disciplinary council. 

Oh my, after listening to the interview with McKenna, he's very capable.

You can gauge his mental acuity by listening to an audio recording?

A few years back I remember having a conversation with a member of my ward (since moved on).  I later found out she was profoundly mentally ill.  I remember being very surprised by that, as I would never have thought that from our discussion.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think she was at her whit's end when no one in the church seemed to care. And the single's ward bishop pretty much threw her story in the trash. 

But according to her, he didn't throw it in the trash and she saw a therapist, Elder Monson, Bishop Leavitt, and Elder Asay by her own account.

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

But according to her, he didn't throw it in the trash and she saw a therapist, Elder Monson, Bishop Leavitt, and Elder Asay by her own account.

Bishop Leavitt stated that he didn't believe her, thus throwing it in the trash. 

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She says that Joseph Bishop assaulted or did something bad to sister missionaries in Argentina.  This is a new allegation.

In the original recording, he refers to starting something with a lady iirc when he was a young missionary in .Argentina.  I have read that extrapolated to him admitting to sexual assault of sister missionaries as a young missionary.  So depending on if she is referring to old or young, it might be new or not.

From the transcript (I believe this was one section I reviewed and got more detail and corrected, but I don't think it made much difference):

"When I was a young missionary, in Argentina, [inaudible 01:15:08], there was a lady. I went to the mission president, halfway confessed, didn't tell him all that happened, so you can't blame him for not [inaudible 01:15:30]. There was nothing .. "

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21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You can gauge his mental acuity by listening to an audio recording?

A few years back I remember having a conversation with a member of my ward (since moved on).  I later found out she was profoundly mentally ill.  I remember being very surprised by that, as I would never have thought that from our discussion.

Thanks,

-Smac

Mentally ill isn't dememtia/Alz.

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1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Bishop Leavitt stated that he didn't believe her, thus throwing it in the trash. 

Agreed, but she says he did believe her and arranged for her to meet with Elder Asay.  You can't have it both ways.

Edited by Calm

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

In the original recording, he refers to starting something with a lady iirc when he was a young missionary in .Argentina.  I have read that extrapolated to him admitting to sexual assault of sister missionaries as a young missionary.  So depending on if she is referring to old or young, it might be new or not.

From the transcript (I believe this was one section I reviewed and got more detail and corrected, but I don't think it made much difference):

"When I was a young missionary, in Argentina, [inaudible 01:15:08], there was a lady. I went to the mission president, halfway confessed, didn't tell him all that happened, so you can't blame him for not [inaudible 01:15:30]. There was nothing .. "

Is there something that alludes to it being a sexual assault and not regular old immorality that he halfway confessed to?

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13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is there something that alludes to it being a sexual assault and not regular old immorality that he halfway confessed to?

No, nothing save he is responding to intense pressure from Denson to tell her of other victims.  She asks him how many he molested or raped when Argentina MP and he responds "none" and she refuses to believe him and continues to push for numbers, how many.  The first inaudible is him saying "I had forgotten..." so I wonder if he is just trying to be accommodating and give her a story so she will stop yelling and swearing at him (creating stories to make others happy or to take pressure off is something that can happen with dementia and then they can insist it is true).

Edited by Calm
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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, nothing save he is responding to intense pressure from Denson to tell her of other victims.  She asks him how many he molested or raped when Argentina MP and he responds "none" and she refuses to believe him and continues to push for numbers, how many.  The first inaudible is him saying "I had forgotten..." so I wonder if he is just trying to be accommodating and give her a story so she will stop yelling and swearing at him (creating stories to make others happy or to take pressure off is something that can happen with dementia and then they can insist it is true).

Ah, o.k., that makes sense.

False confessions are actually really normal, especially if someone feels like confessing is the best way to get out of the situation.  Apparently 1 in 4 people who were convicted of a crime and later exonerated by DNA had confessed or made incriminating statements.

"Why do innocent people confess?

The reasons that people falsely confess are complex and varied, but what they tend to have in common is a belief that complying with the police by saying that they committed the crime in question will be more beneficial than continuing to maintain their innocence.

The factors that can contribute to a false confession during a police interrogation include:

  • duress
  • coercion
  • intoxication
  • diminished capacity
  • mental impairment
  • ignorance of the law
  • fear of violence
  • the actual infliction of harm
  • the threat of a harsh sentence
  • misunderstanding the situation

Confessions obtained from juveniles are often unreliable — children can be easy to manipulate and are not always fully aware of their situation.

People with mental disabilities have often falsely confessed because they are tempted to accommodate and agree with authority figures. Further, many law enforcement interrogators are not given any special training on questioning suspects with mental disabilities. An impaired mental state due to mental illness, drugs or alcohol may also elicit false admissions of guilt.

Mentally capable adults also give false confessions due to a variety of factors like the length of interrogation, exhaustion or a belief that they can be released after confessing and prove their innocence later."

(I'm not saying that it's a given that Bishop's confessions were false, only that it's fairly common in general).

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4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Ah, o.k., that makes sense.

False confessions are actually really normal, especially if someone feels like confessing is the best way to get out of the situation.  Apparently 1 in 4 people who were convicted of a crime and later exonerated by DNA had confessed or made incriminating statements.

"Why do innocent people confess?

The reasons that people falsely confess are complex and varied, but what they tend to have in common is a belief that complying with the police by saying that they committed the crime in question will be more beneficial than continuing to maintain their innocence.

The factors that can contribute to a false confession during a police interrogation include:

  • duress
  • coercion
  • intoxication
  • diminished capacity
  • mental impairment
  • ignorance of the law
  • fear of violence
  • the actual infliction of harm
  • the threat of a harsh sentence
  • misunderstanding the situation

Confessions obtained from juveniles are often unreliable — children can be easy to manipulate and are not always fully aware of their situation.

People with mental disabilities have often falsely confessed because they are tempted to accommodate and agree with authority figures. Further, many law enforcement interrogators are not given any special training on questioning suspects with mental disabilities. An impaired mental state due to mental illness, drugs or alcohol may also elicit false admissions of guilt.

Mentally capable adults also give false confessions due to a variety of factors like the length of interrogation, exhaustion or a belief that they can be released after confessing and prove their innocence later."

(I'm not saying that it's a given that Bishop's confessions were false, only that it's fairly common in general).

It was at 1 hour and 15 minutes into the interview and she is using the F word and yelling at him at that point, which is probably something that he is definitely not used to.  Three days after surgery, he had to be on some form of painkiller, imo.

Not saying it is false either, but it is highly problematic to me.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

But if there were victimes in 1977, and if NDAs were signed with the Church, wouldn't that indicate that the Church was aware of Bishops misconduct in the 1970s?  And if the Church was aware of that misconduct against sister missionaries in Argentina, and then proceeded to call him to preside over sister missionaries in the MTC, then might that be relevant to the fraudulent nondisclosure claim?

I'm still struggling with the "inquiry notice" issue in Colosimo.  Not "struggling," really, as I've only reviewed it in passing.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think that knowledge of sexual predatory behavior at anytime prior to the harmful conduct done to Mckenna would be relevant to her claim. What I do not understand is - I am not familiar with a NDA - is that sexual victim who is legally bound to a NDA can say "I am a sexual assualt victim of so-and-so; I cannot talk about it because of a NDA". I guess it would all depend on the NDA and specific language of the NDA.

As for Colosimo...I have not looked into it, it does seem Judge Kimball was straining a bit.

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22 minutes ago, Calm said:

It was at 1 hour and 15 minutes into the interview and she is using the F word and yelling at him at that point, which is probably something that he is definitely not used to.  Three days after surgery, he had to be on some form of painkiller, imo.

Not saying it is false either, but it is highly problematic to me.

And the knowledge of prior death threat couple with an death threat to his face.

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3 minutes ago, provoman said:

I think that knowledge of sexual predatory behavior at anytime prior to the harmful conduct done to Mckenna would be relevant to her claim. What I do not understand is - I am not familiar with a NDA - is that sexual victim who is legally bound to a NDA can say "I am a sexual assualt victim of so-and-so; I cannot talk about it because of a NDA". I guess it would all depend on the NDA and specific language of the NDA.

As for Colosimo...I have not looked into it, it does seem Judge Kimball was straining a bit.

Could Denson's lawyer subpoena clients he had represented and got settlements with NDAs for or would he have to not share that knowledge under the NDA or attorney-client privilege (though I am thinking he could ask his clients if they would be willing before sharing this info)?

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