Denson interrupts Bishop's home ward testimony meeting

[pogi]

Apparently Denson and Mike Norton concocted a brilliant idea to disrupt Bishop's ward in Arizona during a testimony meeting to publicly shame Bishop.  They recorded the video and posted it on the NewName Noah channel and youtube.  Bishop was at the meeting and his son is the one seen asking the bishop to silence her. 

Here is the church response:

Quote

“Once each month, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints participate in a worship service that includes an opportunity for members to share their testimonies of the Savior, Jesus Christ, and His gospel. It is disappointing that anyone would interrupt such a worship service to bring attention to their own personal cause. Recording and posting of these disruptions on social media to seek public attention and media coverage, sadly, shows an unfortunate lack of respect for others. We respectfully request that those with personal grievances find other means to communicate their messages than disrupting the sanctity of a worship service.”

https://www.ksl.com/article/46386043/woman-confronts-arizona-congregation-with-rape-allegation-church-responds

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/09/04/woman-who-accused-former/

Here is a video:

Thoughts?

[Rain]

This is being discussed on the other Denson thread.

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

This is being discussed on the other Denson thread.

Thanks for the heads up.  I briefly glanced over there to check, but didn't see it being discussed.  I guess the discussion has already evolved past it.  Apparently I am a little slow to the game on this one.  

[Rising_Darkness]

This has been discussed thoroughly in the other Denison thread.

Also, is this the new precedent for Fast and testimony meetings now?  There was another one posted by NNN who got up in another undisclosed ward who is “traveling through” and gave the appearance of an active member (aka wolf in sheep’s clothing) but talked about bishop interviews and little kids.

Then another former member, NewNameNephi (clever...I know), who recorded live on Facebook his “testimony” back in February about churches essays and the concerns he has about it.

Time to start getting my phone out every month now and ready to film the culprit and other “actors” in the ward to show “the otherside” of theit story.

[The Nehor]

I think we should add a trap door right behind the pulpit that drops you into a tank full of ravenous piranhas and give the Bishop the button to open it. Problem solved.

[MorningStar]

Like his entire ward doesn't know already. 

[bluebell]

I feel like I want to comment on this whole thing, but I honestly don't know what to say.  It's just a big mess all the way around, with very little information from one side and a lot of information and antics from the other.  

[Rain]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks for the heads up.  I briefly glanced over there to check, but didn't see it being discussed.  I guess the discussion has already evolved past it.  Apparently I am a little slow to the game on this one.  

It wasn't discussed a whole lot compared to the size of the thread - didn't realize that till I started responding to you now. There was some talk on it and now it is back to rehashing what has been talked about before.

[Prof]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I feel like I want to comment on this whole thing, but I honestly don't know what to say.  It's just a big mess all the way around, with very little information from one side and a lot of information and antics from the other.  

I'm in the same boat.

I believe that something bad happened to her and would like to have sympathy and compassion for her and see that she gets whatever help she needs to help her overcome this harm. However, it is hard to know exactly what is the truth and what may or may not have been done.

The stunt on Sunday really leaves a bad feeling for me. I've been trying to imagine what would have happened if that happened in my ward. I really don't know.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

It wasn't discussed a whole lot compared to the size of the thread - didn't realize that till I started responding to you now. There was some talk on it and now it is back to rehashing what has been talked about before.

There is a lot there, including a link to the video. 

[Rising_Darkness]

The more and more I think about this, I wonder if the church will start recording sacraments in their entirety at some future date to protect members and visitors (with of course a statement about being recorded or something)

[smac97]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I feel like I want to comment on this whole thing, but I honestly don't know what to say.  It's just a big mess all the way around, with very little information from one side and a lot of information and antics from the other.  

At present I am inclined to conclude that Denson was molested or otherwise subjected to serious misconduct by Joseph Bishop, but not to the extent that it was rape or attempted rape.  If we go by what Leavitt states she disclosed, then that goes a long way for me in terms of reconciling Denson's claims with my reservations about those claims.  What Leavitt states she disclosed to him about Bishop was something profoundly sinful and wrong, but not rape or attempted rape.  The rape claim, then, became an embellishment on the (still very wrong) misconduct that did occur.  It grew over time.

But I'm not wedded to that conclusion.  We'll see what happens.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Rising_Darkness said:

The more and more I think about this, I wonder if the church will start recording sacraments in their entirety at some future date to protect members and visitors (with of course a statement about being recorded or something)

I doubt that.  Too easy to turn on a phone if something seems problematic.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

Like his entire ward doesn't know already. 

It is odd to me that he still has his membership.

I don't know much about law, but it's hard to see how this helps her case. Have to feel for the Bishop. While I'm not sure it was the best response, I'm not sure what I'd have done at the time. Probably not what I'd have done had I thought about it for a while. Although had I Bishop in the ward I'd have at least considered in a PEC meeting that disruptions from protestors or at least people from outside the ward was possible. 

All that the counterresponse that the Bishop (not Bishop the sex offender) should have just ended sacrament also seems problematic. Although cutting the mike before doing anything seems wise.

Edited September 5, 2018 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I think we should add a trap door right behind the pulpit that drops you into a tank full of ravenous piranhas and give the Bishop the button to open it. Problem solved.

Just hope that he never confuses that button with the podium lift button 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

It is odd to me that he still has his membership.

 

There are conflicting reports of him resigning his membership to avoid excommunication and him participating in the Sacrament this past week (though he was only sitting by his son--I can't confirm the man's identity as his son, but you can see the two of them alone on a pew at the back---who, if Bishop has dementia, may pass the Sacrament to him anyway, and the Bishop may be aware or feel it needs to be pushed).

Edited September 5, 2018 by Calm

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

It is odd to me that he still has his membership.

I commented on this fairly extensively here.

2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't know much about law, but it's hard to see how this helps her case.

In the end, I don't think it really hurts her case.  It certainly doesn't help, though.

As a practical matter, however, I think she has alienated a lot of members of the Church, though.

2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Have to feel for the Bishop. While I'm not sure it was the best response, I'm not sure what I'd have done at the time. Probably not what I'd have done had I thought about it for a while. Although had I Bishop in the ward I'd have at least considered in a PEC meeting that disruptions from protestors or at least people from outside the ward was possible.

It may well be that Bishop will stop attending Church, for fear that other bigoted jerks who have condemned him will express their anger by further disruptions and shenanigans during church services.

And him not attending Church is helpful . . . to whom, exactly?  How?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Calm]

Quote

And him not attending Church is helpful . . . to whom, exactly?  How?

Quite possibly there are a number of persons in the ward who are extremely uncomfortable around a man who has confessed to asking a woman to expose herself and appears currently comfortable, even eager to talk about his former wives in disrespectful ways.  I imagine any survivors of sexual abuse risk being triggered by seeing him.

These may be able to focus better if he stays home and receives any ministering there.

[MorningStar]

The comments on YouTube are interesting. One person says she started with bearing her testimony of the Savior, so it's still a testimony and she wasn't yelling, therefore she was doing it out of love. OK, getting together with Mike Norton for a publicity stunt and exclaiming in front of innocent young children that she was raped by the man is a testimony and an act of love? As a mom, I will decide how my young children learn about rape, thank you very much. This doesn't increase my sympathy towards her. Act crazy and people are less likely to believe you. 

[SteveO]

2 hours ago, Rising_Darkness said:

This has been discussed thoroughly in the other Denison thread.

Also, is this the new precedent for Fast and testimony meetings now?  There was another one posted by NNN who got up in another undisclosed ward who is “traveling through” and gave the appearance of an active member (aka wolf in sheep’s clothing) but talked about bishop interviews and little kids.

Then another former member, NewNameNephi (clever...I know), who recorded live on Facebook his “testimony” back in February about churches essays and the concerns he has about it.

Time to start getting my phone out every month now and ready to film the culprit and other “actors” in the ward to show “the otherside” of theit story.

If I were on my way out of the church...I would not be spending it....in church.   I think these people's main problem, is that they need to be showed how to utilize a fully freed up Sunday.  The wasted time just makes me sick. 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Apparently Denson and Mike Norton concocted a brilliant idea to disrupt Bishop's ward in Arizona during a testimony meeting to publicly shame Bishop.  They recorded the video and posted it on the NewName Noah channel and youtube.  Bishop was at the meeting and his son is the one seen asking the bishop to silence her. ...........................................

Thoughts?

It is illegal to disrupt worship services in any church, synagogue, or mosque.  However, one may not lay hands on such a disruptor. That is assault.  Instead, the police are to be called to arrest the disruptor.  Often that will entail a misdemeanor citation.  The local pastor/bishop can easily obtain a stay away order from a court -- based on the disruption.  Any organized disruption can become a civil matter with the organized group subject to a civil lawsuit, which can entail monetary damages.

[Rising_Darkness]

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is illegal to disrupt worship services in any church, synagogue, or mosque.  However, one may not lay hands on such a disruptor. That is assault.  Instead, the police are to be called to arrest the disruptor.  Often that will entail a misdemeanor citation.  The local pastor/bishop can easily obtain a stay away order from a court -- based on the disruption.  Any organized disruption can become a civil matter with the organized group subject to a civil lawsuit, which can entail monetary damages.

Curious - Do you have a reference for that?

[Rising_Darkness]

47 minutes ago, SteveO said:

If I were on my way out of the church...I would not be spending it....in church.   I think these people's main problem, is that they need to be showed how to utilize a fully freed up Sunday.  The wasted time just makes me sick. 

Completely agree.

My oldest brother and youngest sister left about 15-20 years ago and have a lot of fun adventures on Sunday! On FB, they aren’t thumbing their nose at active members or anything like that. Here is the latest FB post from this Sunday where they took their boat to Bear Lake: “[name of kid] wakesurfing! Sun was warm and water was smooth”. The shares about 10 pics.

None of their posts are passive-aggressive in nature, never hostile, but recognize the effect the church had on themselves and the families.

They definitely have their opinions on lots of things but they don’t “shotgun” it as NNN does on his Uber/Lyft driver.

Family parties go well too in fact.  They bow their heads like everyone else during a prayer but don’t say amen or anything like that, which I find very respectful.  I read a comment on YouTube that says NNN will make a scene when a prayer is said in his presence...

 

Actions speak much louder than words.

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think we should add a trap door right behind the pulpit that drops you into a tank full of ravenous piranhas and give the Bishop the button to open it. Problem solved.

Or get a hook like the old vaudeville shows....or a big gong like The Gong Show.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Quite possibly there are a number of persons in the ward who are extremely uncomfortable around a man who has confessed to asking a woman to expose herself and appears currently comfortable, even eager to talk about his former wives in disrespectful ways.  I imagine any survivors of sexual abuse risk being triggered by seeing him.

These may be able to focus better if he stays home and receives any ministering there.

I reckon there are a lot of things people have done that if they were exposed to the public would make ward members uncomfortable around them. Isn't that what repentance is all about? I'm thinking about a woman who was caught in the act of adultery and whose life was saved by Jesus. Should she have stayed away from her religious community?

Edited September 5, 2018 by Bernard Gui