Navidad Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 50 minutes ago, Rivers said: The third Article of Faith ”We believe that through the [A]tonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” This is probably where baptists would disagree with us the most. It’s not the atonement itself but how we access the the atonement’s saving power. It might also be a difference in our respective definitions of the word "saved." Link to comment
Rivers Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 22 minutes ago, Navidad said: It might also be a difference in our respective definitions of the word "saved." The word “saved” has many meanings and is the source of a lot of confusion. Then when you add in terms like eternal life and exaltation, things get even murkier. Link to comment
Maureen Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 18 hours ago, Anakin7 said: ...Do you believe that God The Son Christ Jesus was inside God The Father's mind as his Logos before time began ?... I believe that God has existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit before the beginning, before the Creation. M. Link to comment
Maureen Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 @Navidad, regarding Creeds. Yes, I have noticed that some Latter-day Saints don't really understand the purpose of creeds. That they are just concise statements of belief. That in some faiths creeds are recited, but there is no rule or law that says they must be recited by everyone or the creed police will be notified. 😊 There are no creed police. In fact the Articles of Faith can be considered similar to a Creed. And I would even think there are some faiths that do have "Statements of Belief" but do not recite them in a liturgy, because their services do not typically follow a liturgy. M. Link to comment
Meerkat Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 2:14 PM, bluebell said: In a nutshell we teach that- The Atonement is necessary for our salvation Jesus Christ was the only one who could atone for our sins Christ suffered and died to atone for our sins The resurrection and atonement bring resurrection to all The atonement makes it possible for show have faith in Christ to be saved from their sins What in that list is a Baptist, or other non-Latter-day Saint Christian, likely to have issues with? We have a lady learning about the Church in our home. She is very studious, and comes with questions from her Book of Mormon reading every visit. She often says "Christians believe this," and "Mormons believe that." She is often surprised our beliefs are much the same, with semantics playing a role in the differences (such as faith and works, chicken and the egg, etc.) We agree on all of your bullet points. Her stumbling block is the Trinity versus our definition of "One in purpose." My view is there is much we don't know about the Holy Ghost, what kind of being He is and how He participates in the Godhead, and relates to the Church's concept of man becoming like God (and how that will look.) There is much we don't know about what kind of beings we will become. Those things are not as crucial as your bullet points that we hold in common with most other Christians. I think these bullets should be added: * We have authority from God to perform important sacred ordinances. (That makes us unique from all other faiths.) * We believe that "The Fall" was pre-planned, and Eve's part in it was not a mistake on her part, but key to the Divine Plan rolling forth. Those kinds of things are difficult to discuss with our wonderful Baptist friends. 2 Link to comment
speculator81 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 My Christian friend asks if I have been saved and that opens a complete doorway to questions. What does he believe "saved" is and means, and when does it happen? He also believes very strongly in "Grace", but cannot quite define it. He believes the the Lord interferes constantly in the life of man, where I doubt He interferes much at all, if at all. He believes baptism is not necessary. He has many beliefs such as the Nicean Creed, which I cannot accept. I think it is about time we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints admitted that we do worship a different Christ than most of the Christian world, and quit trying to playcate other Christian sects. Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, speculator81 said: My Christian friend asks if I have been saved and that opens a complete doorway to questions. What does he believe "saved" is and means, and when does it happen? He also believes very strongly in "Grace", but cannot quite define it. He believes the the Lord interferes constantly in the life of man, where I doubt He interferes much at all, if at all. He believes baptism is not necessary. He has many beliefs such as the Nicean Creed, which I cannot accept. I think it is about time we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints admitted that we do worship a different Christ than most of the Christian world, and quit trying to playcate other Christian sects. Good post. I hope your conversations with your fellow Christian are positive. My counsel (not that you asked) is to focus on what he or she really no kidding thinks one has to believe in order to be a Christian; not his or her type of Christian (denomination, for example), but as someone on this board has stated, a generic Christian. Giver her or him a copy of "How Wide the Divide" or "Are Mormons Christians?" Those are very well written and will give any open-minded Christian pause. Don't placate her or him. Really try and dig into what are the differences in the Christ you respectively worship. I wish you well. Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 2:56 PM, Rivers said: The third Article of Faith ”We believe that through the [A]tonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” This is probably where baptists would disagree with us the most. It’s not the atonement itself but how we access the the atonement’s saving power. What are the LAWS and ORDINANCES of the Gospel (list them) and who compiled them? And what if one makes a mistake? I mean if the Jews couldn't keep the LAW of Moses perfectly --- how do LDS keep the ordinances and perform them perfectly? And if perfection is of no consequence, how imperfect is good enough? Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Anon the Great said: Read Matthew 12 yourself and then ask your friend to read Matthew 12. Jesus says we are all forgiven and saved if we do not blasphemy the Holy Spirit and say the miracles of the Holy Spirit are from the devil. The idea of claiming we are saved is from a self-righteous attitude of sitting on the throne of Christ, and I am glad the LDS do not say it. We are saved in our premortal life before we are even born. If your friend does not believe in a premortal life, then the truth cannot be understood about salvation. We are saved before we are even born, when our spirit and soul were created, and God will not destroy the body and soul in hell fire unless we commit the unpardonable sin. Ask your friend this question if he believes in eternal suffering: If Jesus suffered for less that a day for all the world's sins, then why do people suffer forever for not believing in him? The LDS belief is closer to the truth about God than Christianity, but the LDS have their own errors to rationally work through as they reach for the light. Prove you had a premortal life. What was your former name? What did you do in the cosmos before you arrived on this planet. And isn't believing that one had a premortal existence an attempt to make one equal with CHRIST ---since the Bible clearly demonstrates that HE had one. CHRIST is the PERFECT CREATOR of EVERYTHING that exists ------ humans are fallen and are merely created beings (though LDS seems to believe this isn't the case). If Hitler isn't in hell where is he? And what makes him any worse than his staff, his henchmen, his soldiers, and the citizens who placed him in office and looked the other way or were afraid? Has anyone been baptized for him? Why or why not... Edited October 14, 2018 by LittleNipper Link to comment
Storm Rider Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 10/12/2018 at 11:19 AM, Navidad said: Hi Maureen - What you said about Catholics and Protestants beliefs' is correct. However, I would suggest to you that discussing the trinity with LDS Christians will not get anyone anywhere. This is really a "thing" for them. They are inculturated as to what the trinity means to folks. They will readily tell you what you believe, how it is all creedal, the result of hellenizing (see corrupting) Christianity, and is a hallmark of the great apostasy. That we see it in scripture, even in the Book of Mormon will never be accepted by them. Railing against the trinity goes back to the Pratt brothers and continues into the present. It is truly unique how the LDS Christians are so creedal-centric; ironically far more than I am. I have tried and tried to explain that the vast majority of Protestants and especially evangelicals are not creedal, don't know the creeds, and don't care about the creeds, but it is like banging my head against the wall. They are conditioned from somewhere to believe something else. It is not so much a doctrinal debate - those I enjoy. It is a absolute belief in where and how we got our trinitarian beliefs and that it is all corrupting and part of the reason for the restoration needed for the Christian church. I certainly don't disagree that there was a need for a restoration, but that work began centuries ago and is not unique to, or limited to the LDS Christians. Phil, I don't think I am like that when it comes to a discussion on the Trinity. Given that I am one of those that are least among this group, I have to believe that there are a whole lot of other folks who think similar to me - thus the statement is more telling us what we think and will do than reality. Regardless, I do agree that some members of the Church have tried to find out how the teaching of the Trinity within orthodox Christianity developed and some of what you have discussed fits with part of that thought process. I am surprised that you have met members of the Church that think that Evangelicals are Creedal Christians or Christians that have a number of Creeds in which they believe. I grew up in the south; all my friends were members of either the First Baptist Church, First Methodist Church, or the Assemblies of God churches. Each of them certainly believes in the Trinity and only the Methodists have creeds of any kind and the other two have none. I do think that many members of the church think they understand the orthodox concept of the Trinity when they are confused - when they talk about the Trinity they are actually talking about Modalism. Then almost all members of the Church have no understanding of essence makes the three God or how it does that. For me personally, I have always felt it was simply a construct that was created to ensure that there was only one God while still believing that the Father had a son, Jesus, who was also divine. The divinity of Jesus was not easy to combine with monotheism and result in something feasible for early Christians. Great conversation. Link to comment
LittleNipper Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 11 minutes ago, Anon the Great said: I believe the Bible answers all of these questions, even about Hitler, but the questions are off topic, so I can 't answer them. Matt 12 is the basic answer. We are saved in our premortal life before we are even born. If your friend does not believe in a premortal life, then the truth cannot be understood about salvation. We are saved before we are even born, when our spirit and soul were created, and God will not destroy the body and soul in hell fire unless we commit the unpardonable sin. Ask your friend this question if he believes in eternal suffering: If Jesus suffered for less that a day for all the world's sins, then why do people suffer forever for not believing in him? The LDS belief is closer to the truth about God than Christianity, but the LDS have their own errors to rationally work through as they reach for the light. It would seem by the above that YOU derailed the topic and not I. Premortality is about as biblical as Shintoism. I think you're skirting the issues that are of Mormon design and not biblical, Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 10/11/2018 at 1:00 PM, Navidad said: Hello my friend. I assume you mean "penal substitution" not penal substation - I have never heard of that. On 10/11/2018 at 2:24 PM, Anon the Great said: You know I mean "penal substitution" and made a mistake. So why do you bring a mistake to everyone's attention, and pretend you do not know what I mean and play stupid? Friends don't do that, so why do you call me your friend, when you don't act like one. Friends would say a mistake was made, but not play stupid about it, claiming you had never heard of it before to make you look smart and me look dumb. My mind goes 1000 times faster than my fingers, and I missed the mistake. It is always the same. Posters pick out a mistake, and build the post around it. Others might not catch the mistake, but you knew what I was saying. I also clearly wrote I am not attacking the love of God in Jesus, but I am attacking the theology that was changed over time, which you are well aware of. ...But please, don't tell me you are my friend unless you act like one. Wow, Anon the Great, way to go!!! You've never had an interaction with Navidad, don't know who the bloody heck he is, and then when he explains (without criticizing you, by the way) that he was momentarily confused by your typo, you instantly blow your lid sky high and barf all manner of crap all over him. He didn't criticize you in any way whatsoever. And calling someone a friend is, in normal conversation between people who do not know each other, is a reaching out in hope that you will be a friend. You, sir, have a very big chip on your shoulder, and if you have any desire at all that people here in this forum will ever take you seriously, you darned well better improve your attitude. As for this: "... to make you look smart and me look dumb", he did nothing of the kind. What makes you look dumb is how you totally misread what he said, assumed the worst, and let him have it with both barrels. Not that you are dumb, however. It's obvious from your writing that you have brains. You may be pretty sure about your theology, but as for Christ-like love and willingness to go the extra mile, turn the other cheek, and so on, not so much. To make matters worse, he offers you an apology for offending you, and you don't even bother to acknowledge it. In saying all this, I confess that I am not always that kind and forbearing to people who annoy me, but I'm trying to improve. I invite you make the attempt as well. Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Wow, Anon the Great, way to go!!! You've never had an interaction with Navidad, don't know who the bloody heck he is, and then when he explains (without criticizing you, by the way) that he was momentarily confused by your typo, you instantly blow your lid sky high and barf all manner of crap all over him. He didn't criticize you in any way whatsoever. And calling someone a friend is, in normal conversation between people who do not know each other, is a reaching out in hope that you will be a friend. You, sir, have a very big chip on your shoulder, and if you have any desire at all that people here in this forum will ever take you seriously, you darned well better improve your attitude. As for this: "... to make you look smart and me look dumb", he did nothing of the kind. What makes you look dumb is how you totally misread what he said, assumed the worst, and let him have it with both barrels. Not that you are dumb, however. It's obvious from your writing that you have brains. You may be pretty sure about your theology, but as for Christ-like love and willingness to go the extra mile, turn the other cheek, and so on, not so much. To make matters worse, he offers you an apology for offending you, and you don't even bother to acknowledge it. In saying all this, I confess that I am not always that kind and forbearing to people who annoy me, but I'm trying to improve. I invite you make the attempt as well. Thanks for your post. I appreciate it. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 19 hours ago, Maureen said: @Navidad, regarding Creeds. Yes, I have noticed that some Latter-day Saints don't really understand the purpose of creeds. That they are just concise statements of belief. That in some faiths creeds are recited, but there is no rule or law that says they must be recited by everyone or the creed police will be notified. 😊 There are no creed police. In fact the Articles of Faith can be considered similar to a Creed. And I would even think there are some faiths that do have "Statements of Belief" but do not recite them in a liturgy, because their services do not typically follow a liturgy. M. I don't think it's us who don't understand the purpose of creeds. The problem with creedal Christianity is that they take the creed, such as the Nicene, and virtually canonize it, as if it were scripture, and then cast out all those who don't agree with its precepts as non-Christian. If it were just a concise statement of belief, they could tolerate some deviation from it. But they don't. Sometimes it is said that LDS Articles of Faith is a creed. But it isn't, at least not in the sense that the Nicene Creed is a creed. The AoF is a concise statement of belief, however. Link to comment
Navidad Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Stargazer said: I don't think it's us who don't understand the purpose of creeds. The problem with creedal Christianity is that they take the creed, such as the Nicene, and virtually canonize it, as if it were scripture, and then cast out all those who don't agree with its precepts as non-Christian. If it were just a concise statement of belief, they could tolerate some deviation from it. But they don't. Sometimes it is said that LDS Articles of Faith is a creed. But it isn't, at least not in the sense that the Nicene Creed is a creed. The AoF is a concise statement of belief, however. Your post is very accurate except in one way - In Protestantism and especially in Evangelicalism, the largest branch of Protestantism, there are very few "Creedal Christians." You make it sound like it is a majority. I know of no Protestants and am quite sure that no evangelicals canonize any creed. I also know of no evangelical and I can't think of any Protestants who would declare that those Christians who are non-creedal are non-Christian. I am certainly non-creedal and have preached in most major Protestant denominations and have never once been asked about my position on creeds before being asked to preach. Just a bit ago you helped me out, so I am hesitant to ask about your post, but I do so in good spirit. Whether I am wrong or right, I want to learn. I have heard more about the Nicene Creed since joining this forum than in the previous 50 years of my ministry in Protestant and evangelical churches! 😃 Edited October 14, 2018 by Navidad Link to comment
Paloma Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 5:14 PM, bluebell said: Living in Utah, there's a chance that a Baptist might come to my door and want to discuss religion with me in the near future. With that in mind, what does the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach about the Atonement that other Christians disagree with? (For reference, here's what we actually teach) In a nutshell we teach that- The Atonement is necessary for our salvation Jesus Christ was the only one who could atone for our sins Christ suffered and died to atone for our sins The resurrection and atonement bring resurrection to all The atonement makes it possible for show have faith in Christ to be saved from their sins What in that list is a Baptist, or other non-Latter-day Saint Christian, likely to have issues with? It's hard to say I would have issues with your statement above without getting into the nitty gritty of what certain ideas such as "bring resurrection to all" mean. Here is the doctrinal statement of my church regarding the Atonement (that's in the whole context of Jesus and Salvation, because it needs the full context, I think). Jesus Christ and Salvation God’s plan of salvation for sinful humanity is central to God’s eternal purpose and is fully revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ, chosen by God before creation to be the Savior. We affirm that Jesus Christ is truly divine and truly human. Jesus Christ, God the Son, is a distinct person of the Trinity, in perfect equality and unity with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. He is eternally existent and is fully God. He created all things and is the source and sustainer of life. In the fullness of time God the Son took on human likeness, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary. He was God incarnate — God in the flesh — and lived on earth as a man, fully human, yet without sin. He grew physically and mentally, and experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, rejection, and the range of human emotions. He was tempted in every way, but remained sinless. He was perfectly obedient and submissive to the Father. He took on the role of a servant and responded in compassion to those in need. Jesus modeled perfect humanity and called people to follow Him. The divine nature of Jesus of Nazareth was shown clearly during His life on earth. At infancy He was announced as Immanuel, God with us. At His baptism he was acknowledged to be God’s Son. His ministry was marked by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. He taught with divine authority and commissioned His disciples to proclaim His gospel. He said that anyone who has seen Him had seen the Father. He was the Son of God, full of grace and truth. Jesus came to earth as the promised Messiah revealed in the Scriptures. He inaugurated the kingdom of God and demonstrated its presence by healing the sick and casting out demons. His miracles were signs of God’s kingdom. In His teaching, Jesus set God’s rule over against the kingdoms of this world. He called those who followed Him into the church, the new covenant community based on the values of the kingdom of God. He came to destroy the works of the devil and to redeem the human family from sin. Christ’s work of redemption was accomplished in His death and resurrection. God purposed in Christ to redeem us from the guilt and power of sin and to free us from the rule of Satan, so that all who believe would be restored to divine favor and fellowship. By His suffering and sacrificial death for us, Jesus Christ provided complete atonement for sin. His death and resurrection opened the only way for reconciliation between a holy, just God and sinful humanity. His life-blood freely given on the cross provided pardon and ratified the New Covenant. The bodily resurrection of Jesus testifies decisively of His deity and His victory over Satan, sin, and death. The risen Christ ascended to heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for us. Jesus Christ is now our risen, exalted, and reigning Lord. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Him. He is the Head of the church and the Lord of human history. At the end of time, all things in heaven and on earth will be brought under His rule. Every person will bow before Him and He will reign forever. With joy we confess that Jesus is Lord and acknowledge His authority over our lives. We honor him with our worship and obedience. The salvation graciously provided by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ becomes effective in our lives by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit who prepares us for faith in Jesus Christ. He awakens us to our need, enables us to acknowledge our guilt, and calls us to respond to God in faith and obedience. The response of faith is a personal reliance on God’s grace and a turning from sin to righteousness. Repentance involves an acknowledgment of sin. It is expressed in genuine sorrow, forsaking sin, and a change in attitude toward God, preparing for the continuing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Repentance includes a willingness for reconciliation and restitution. All who come to faith in Christ are born again, receive the Holy Spirit, and become children of God. They are acquitted of all guilt for sin, are granted the righteousness of Christ, and are reconciled to God. Persons thus justified by grace through faith enjoy peace with God, are adopted into God’s family, become part of the church, and receive the assurance of eternal life. We become new creatures in Christ, regenerated by the Holy Spirit. This change of heart becomes evident in the development of Christlike character and a walk of obedience to God. Conversion is expressed in a changed life with new direction, purposes, interests, and values. The new life in Christ is developed through Christian spiritual disciplines such as prayer, study of Scripture, fasting, self-denial; they do not make the believer immune from temptation. Persistent disobedience impairs fellowship with God and can destroy one’s new life in Christ. When there is sin in the Christian’s life, it needs to be confessed and forsaken in the confidence of God’s willingness to pardon and His power to cleanse from evil. We believe that God’s grace provides for more than forgiveness of sin. As the Spirit works in the life of the believer, he or she is led forward in sanctification to a full surrender and commitment of the motives and will to Christ. This results in freedom from the control of sin and in empowerment to live the holy life. The Holy Spirit fills persons yielded to God and equips them for effective witness and service. Sanctification is also an ongoing journey of yielding to God and growing in grace. The quality of the surrendered life corresponds to the believer’s responsiveness to the Holy Spirit and obedience to the Word of God. The Spirit-filled life results in a sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, inner strength in times of temptation, godly living and wholehearted service to the Lord. The Holy Spirit produces virtuous character—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These virtues characterize the believer’s walk in the Spirit. The salvation provided by our Lord Jesus Christ will be consummated for the believer in the joy of heaven and the full realization of the kingdom of God. In our glorified bodies we will be free from all the effects of sin. Restored in the likeness of Christ, we will worship God and reign with Christ throughout eternity. 3 Link to comment
Rivers Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: What are the LAWS and ORDINANCES of the Gospel (list them) and who compiled them? And what if one makes a mistake? I mean if the Jews couldn't keep the LAW of Moses perfectly --- how do LDS keep the ordinances and perform them perfectly? And if perfection is of no consequence, how imperfect is good enough? The Laws and Ordinances are stated in the next Article of Faith. Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, Maureen said: I believe that God has existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit before the beginning, before the Creation. M. Thank you, reads, sounds like greek hellenization, and the God Of The Philosophers. In conversations with a good # of evangelicals I am told that - "within the nature of the 1 God there are the 3 persons - Father, Son, Holy Ghost". So we have God with 3 persons who resides throughout all time/space/matter who live inside the nature that God possesses. So I understand that we have a 3 level/tier reality - there is God who is nature and has within that nature where 3 persons reside. From My lights I do not see/read of such a god in the old world Holy Writ = Holy Bible. thank you for sharing your view. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anaki7 Edited October 14, 2018 by Anakin7 Link to comment
Maureen Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Anakin7 said: ...In conversations with a good # of evangelicals I am told that - "within the nature of the 1 God there are the 3 persons - Father, Son, Holy Ghost". So we have God with 3 persons who resides throughout all time/space/matter who live inside the nature that God possesses. So I understand that we have a 3 level/tier reality - there is God who is nature and has within that nature where 3 persons reside... Your wording is interesting. There is only one God because he is the only being with a divine nature. All 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are collectively and individually God. All 3 persons are divine, therefore they are God. Our nature is human, we are not divine. That is a difference with Latter-day Saint belief because you believe that mankind is god in embryo, that mankind also has divinity. Mainstream Christianity believes that only God is divine. M. Edited October 14, 2018 by Maureen 1 Link to comment
Maureen Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Stargazer said: I don't think it's us who don't understand the purpose of creeds. The problem with creedal Christianity is that they take the creed, such as the Nicene, and virtually canonize it, as if it were scripture, and then cast out all those who don't agree with its precepts as non-Christian. If it were just a concise statement of belief, they could tolerate some deviation from it. But they don't. Sometimes it is said that LDS Articles of Faith is a creed. But it isn't, at least not in the sense that the Nicene Creed is a creed. The AoF is a concise statement of belief, however. Statements of Beliefs are exactly that, beliefs. Once beliefs are established why would there be need to deviate from them? Do you deviate from your Articles of Faith, which are considered scripture by your faith. M. Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Maureen said: Your wording is interesting. There is only one God because he is the only being with a divine nature. All 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are collectively and individually God. All 3 persons are divine, therefore they are God. Our nature is human, we are not divine. That is a difference with Latter-day Saint belief because you believe that mankind is god in embryo, that mankind also has divinity. Mainstream Christianity only believes that God is divine. M. Some of my wording comes from evangelical christians I have talked with. Theosis/Deification/Glorification is well documented in eary christianity. Early mainstream christianity taught as such. Thank you, I must get ready to work with some of my evangelical christian friends. . Have a True Grace empowered day. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment Robe In His Blood In his Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Link to comment
theplains Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 5:14 PM, bluebell said: Living in Utah, there's a chance that a Baptist might come to my door and want to discuss religion with me in the near future. With that in mind, what does the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teach about the Atonement that other Christians disagree with? According to Gospel Principles, the debt repayment transferred from being to Heavenly Father to Jesus Christ; and believers must pay back this debt to Jesus by agreeing to his terms. ‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’ Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, if we will keep His terms, which are to repent and keep His commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father. This seems to mean human effort is involved to merit grace/mercy (as further mentioned in 2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32). Those who don't return to live with Heavenly Father are thus regarded as being in prison because they did not repay the debt (keep all His commandments). Thanks, Jim Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 12 hours ago, Maureen said: Statements of Beliefs are exactly that, beliefs. Once beliefs are established why would there be need to deviate from them? Do you deviate from your Articles of Faith, which are considered scripture by your faith. M. The Articles of Faith may be bound with the Pearl of Great Price, and some say that they are scripture, but they aren't really. They are entirely derivative, meaning they are derived from that which is scripture, such as the Bible and the Book of Mormon. They are a convenient description of what we believe. Deviating from them would be deviating from the scriptures. The AoF could be dumped from our publications without much if any problem -- if we didn't have them we would lose nothing. Link to comment
Maureen Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 4 minutes ago, Stargazer said: The Articles of Faith may be bound with the Pearl of Great Price, and some say that they are scripture, but they aren't really... Your church disagrees with you. https://www.lds.org/topics/articles-of-faith?lang=eng M. 1 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 20 hours ago, Navidad said: Your post is very accurate except in one way - In Protestantism and especially in Evangelicalism, the largest branch of Protestantism, there are very few "Creedal Christians." You make it sound like it is a majority. I know of no Protestants and am quite sure that no evangelicals canonize any creed. I also know of no evangelical and I can't think of any Protestants who would declare that those Christians who are non-creedal are non-Christian. I am certainly non-creedal and have preached in most major Protestant denominations and have never once been asked about my position on creeds before being asked to preach. Just a bit ago you helped me out, so I am hesitant to ask about your post, but I do so in good spirit. Whether I am wrong or right, I want to learn. I have heard more about the Nicene Creed since joining this forum than in the previous 50 years of my ministry in Protestant and evangelical churches! 😃 I believe that most attending Protestants don't know the text of the Nicene Creed, and I'd guess that most of them, if asked, couldn't explain what it meant, or might not recognize it if it were read to them. Perhaps I am using incorrect terminology. By "Creedal Christians" I'm referring to the professors of religion who take the creeds (e.g. the Nicene Creed) as an authoritative statement of orthodoxy or correct teaching. I don't wish to tell you what you believe, as that's a trick best performed while drunk, but I believe that most major Protestant denominations hold to the Nicene or some other creed that asserts the Trinity as described in the Nicene Creed. Now, I understand that some evangelical and other Christians consider the Nicene Creed helpful and to a certain extent authoritative, but not infallibly so. Yet they reject the label "Christian" from being applied to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, because the Trinity as taught in the creed is rejected there. In your preaching, if you had said that you rejected the Trinity as taught in the Nicene and other creeds, I'm pretty sure you would not be welcome on those pulpits. You might have heard more about the Nicene Creed since coming here because many of the Latter-day Saints here are very very familiar with Christians who come here to declare that we're not Christians because we don't believe in the principles asserted in that creed. You might say that we've become sensitized about it. I'm sure that most of the Latter-day Saints you've socialized with don't give it that much thought. And please don't worry about asking me about what I post. I'm quite certain that I am capable of confusing folks with what I write, and if so, I like to know if that's the case, so I can fix any misapprehensions. I can be prickly and reactive, but I'm trying to be more placid and unoffensive. I may eventually succeed! Link to comment
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