Hollow Earth Theory

[Regor]

Has anyone seen comments from General Authorities about the Hollow Earth Theory? Is it a possibility that a family like Lehi’s was led away before the scattering of the 10 Tribes and they were relocated under the earth. The theory goes there is a sun source internal to the earth.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Regor said:

Has anyone seen comments from General Authorities about the Hollow Earth Theory? Is it a possibility that a family like Lehi’s was led away before the scattering of the 10 Tribes and they were relocated under the earth. The theory goes there is a sun source internal to the earth.

No, but the guy who runs the Apocalrock visitor's center has some theories about it.

[clarkgoble]

12 minutes ago, Regor said:

Has anyone seen comments from General Authorities about the Hollow Earth Theory? Is it a possibility that a family like Lehi’s was led away before the scattering of the 10 Tribes and they were relocated under the earth. The theory goes there is a sun source internal to the earth.

Well the theory is easy to show is false just with basic physics. It was a popular conception in the 19th century. Edgar Rice Burroughs took the idea and turned it into his popular Pellucidar series of novels. (Including a crossover where Tarzan visits Pellucidar) 

A quick Google will find lots of examples of people pushing it in a Mormon context without much concern with lining up with basic laws of physics. As for when it entered into Mormon thought I believe it goes back to Benjamin F. Johnson, a friend of Joseph Smith who attributed to Smith the idea. I've also heard later conspiracy theories tied to David O McKay, although I've not seen a source for that. 

So no GA quotes that I know of, although I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Heber C. Kimball had speculated on it. He had a lot of far out ideas at times.

Edited August 21, 2018 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

Nevermind

Edited August 21, 2018 by pogi

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, Regor said:

Has anyone seen comments from General Authorities about the Hollow Earth Theory? Is it a possibility that a family like Lehi’s was led away before the scattering of the 10 Tribes and they were relocated under the earth. The theory goes there is a sun source internal to the earth.

Goes right along with the other speculations about Moon men, and people living on the Sun and all kinds of odd ball ideas people get.  GAs are just regular people like you and me, and I imagine they have their share of crazy ideas at the same frequency as the rest of society.  

[Bernard Gui]

43 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Goes right along with the other speculations about Moon men, and people living on the Sun and all kinds of odd ball ideas people get.  GAs are just regular people like you and me, and I imagine they have their share of crazy ideas at the same frequency as the rest of society.  

My uncle believed the hollow earth theory or at least a secret civilization under the North Pole., but he did not get it from Mormon sources.

Also,....

See this page in the original 1992 publication.

Author: Turner, Rodney

Moses described God as a "consuming fire" (Deut. 4:24), his glory consuming everything corrupt and unholy (D&C 63:34;101:23-24). The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, "God Almighty Himself dwells in eternal fire; flesh and blood cannot go there, for all corruption is devoured by the fire," but a resurrected being, "flesh and bones quickened by the Spirit of God," can (Tpjs, pp. 326, 367; cf. Luke 24:36-43; 1 Cor. 15:50). Heaven, not hell, is the realm of everlasting burnings, a view contrasting with the popular conception of hell as a place of fire, brimstone, and searing heat. Heat is a characteristic of God's glory (D&C 133:41-44).

Only those cleansed from physical and moral corruption can endure immortal glory (3 Ne. 27:19; Moses 6:57; TPJS, p. 351). Hence, Isaiah rhetorically asked, "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" (Isa. 33:14). Joseph Smith taught, "All men who are immortal (i.e., resurrected beings in any of the degrees of glory) dwell in everlasting burnings" (TPJS, pp. 347, 361, 367). Resurrected bodies are qualitatively different according to their glory (1 Cor. 15:39-44; D&C 88:28-32).

Describing a vision of the Celestial Kingdom, Joseph Smith reported, "I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire; also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son" (D&C 137:2-3). RODNEY TURNER

Edited August 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[rongo]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

So no GA quotes that I know of, although I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Heber C. Kimball had speculated on it. He had a lot of far out ideas at times.

Heber C. Kimball? Are you sure you aren't mixing him up with someone else? 

I think there are stronger candidates for "far out ideas" . . .   He was a fire-eater (some of the more pointed blood atonement quotes are his), but he wasn't really a space doctrine type. 

[clarkgoble]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Heber C. Kimball? Are you sure you aren't mixing him up with someone else? 

I think there are stronger candidates for "far out ideas" . . .   He was a fire-eater (some of the more pointed blood atonement quotes are his), but he wasn't really a space doctrine type. 

Yeah I was mixing him up with Phelps who especially in his later days had some odd ideas.

"The parts of the globe that are known probably contain 700 millions of inhabitants, andthose parts which are unknown may be supposed to contain more than four times as many more, making an estimated total of about three thousand, five hundred and eighty millions of souls: Let no man marvel at this statement, because there may be a continent at the north pole, of more than 1300 square miles, containing thousands of millions of Israelites, who, after a high way is cast up in the great deep, may come to Zion, singing songs of everlasting joy. The Lord must bring to pass the words of Isaiah, which say to the NORTH, “Give up; and to the South; keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth.” From the north and south END, I presume, as no one has ever pretended, that there was an end to the globe any where else."

Not a hollow earth view but a "they must all be at the north pole" view. 

[CA Steve]

Given that we don't know everything about the interior of the earth, it is impossible to rule out the possibility that some day we may find evidence of the lost ten tribes there. Since we don't really know what an artifact from those lost ten tribe would look like after they have been underground for so long, it is entirely possible that every time we witness a volcanic eruption we are seeing ancient Israeli artifacts in molten form. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Goes right along with the other speculations about Moon men, and people living on the Sun and all kinds of odd ball ideas people get.  GAs are just regular people like you and me, and I imagine they have their share of crazy ideas at the same frequency as the rest of society.  

I'm not sure those ideas were per se "crazy" int he 19th century.  They were false, yes.  But crazy?  We've sent men into outer space.  To the moon.  We've sent probes billions of miles away (Voyager 1 "is zipping along at 38,000 mph (61,000 km/h), is currently 11.7 billion miles (18.8 billion kilometers) from Earth").  We have sent men and probes to the bottom of the ocean.  We have medicine and healthcare undreamt of in in the 19th century.  And transportation.  And food production.  And communication.  And on and on.  

These folks were guessing about things well beyond their ability to test.  A theory about a hollow earth would have seemed no more absurd than a theory about sending men to the moon, or flying across the skies faster than the speed of sound.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

5 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure those ideas were per se "crazy" int he 19th century.  They were false, yes.  But crazy?  We've sent men into outer space.  To the moon.  We've sent probes billions of miles away (Voyager 1 "is zipping along at 38,000 mph (61,000 km/h), is currently 11.7 billion miles (18.8 billion kilometers) from Earth").  We have sent men and probes to the bottom of the ocean.  We have medicine and healthcare undreamt of in in the 19th century.  And transportation.  And food production.  And communication.  And on and on.  

These folks were guessing about things well beyond their ability to test.  A theory about a hollow earth would have seemed no more absurd than a theory about sending men to the moon, or flying across the skies faster than the speed of sound.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I haven’t studied what educated people thought at that time, but some ideas definitely seem crazy by modern standard.  It’s also possible that the ideas for a hollow earth would have been considered crazy by contemporarily educated people, I just don’t know.  

[mfbukowski]

I thought all the water from the flood supposedly escaped into the hollow earth- and also game out of the "fountains of the deep" or something like that.

And did you know that the Bible confirms guided evolution?   Gen 1

Quote

 

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

What brought forth life?

The waters and the earth! 

So He used the waters and the earth to create the creatures and he then certified that they were "good" and built to specifications..... 

(No I am not serious but it could be interpreted that way....)

And then it goes on with special creation for Man- so there you have it.  Evolution and then direct intervention for Man only.  Plain as day. 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Regor said:

Has anyone seen comments from General Authorities about the Hollow Earth Theory? Is it a possibility that a family like Lehi’s was led away before the scattering of the 10 Tribes and they were relocated under the earth. The theory goes there is a sun source internal to the earth.

 

Well if you like to do a google search, you will find that there is a cave in Vietnam (I believe) so large it has it's own ecosystem. It was discovered by accident by a farmer. There are others maybe as big, or yet undiscovered. But the earth being "hollow", of course not. 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I haven’t studied what educated people thought at that time, but some ideas definitely seem crazy by modern standard.  It’s also possible that the ideas for a hollow earth would have been considered crazy by contemporarily educated people, I just don’t know.  

I think the problem was that most people of the time - even the literate and read - really weren't educated by our standards. So if we're talking people who've been to college I suspect most of them saw it as nonsense. But how many people in the 19th century went to college? And being well read meant the classics but not the sciences. (Heavens, people in the humanities thought nothing of ignorance of the sciences well into the post-war period)

Edited August 22, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Eek!]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

These folks were guessing about things well beyond their ability to test.  A theory about a hollow earth would have seemed no more absurd than a theory about sending men to the moon, or flying across the skies faster than the speed of sound.  

Some of us have ideas today that will be proven crazy in the future.   Hollow earth theory being currently out of vogue, here's an alternative, having to do with exceeding the speed of light: 

When mass and gravity are fully understood, along with their relationships to the other fundamental properties and forces of the universe, we may find that it is theoretically possible to manipulate inertial mass. 

Inertial mass is what approaches infinity as an electron is accelerated to nearly the speed of light; the quantity of material in the electron does not actually change.  This increase in inertial mass is why any object with mass (even a tiny electron) cannot be accelerated to the speed of light.  It would take all the energy in the universe. 

But suppose we learn how to cancel out inertial mass, so that it goes to zero.  Force = mass times acceleration, therefore acceleration equals force divided by mass.  As mass (inertial mass) goes to zero, acceleration goes to infinity.  So, the speed of light would no longer be the speed limit.  Which might be kinda cool. 

A notional interstellar vessel would need two types of engines:  One to generate an inertial-mass-cancelling field (which ideally would not have fatal side-effects), and another to provide propulsion. 

I haven't read any science fiction in decades so maybe this is primitive stuff that writers have long since outgrown.   But for now at least, it's my hollow earth theory. 

[Nevo]

Davis Bitton had an interesting section on Lost 10 Tribes speculation in his book, Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith (since republished by Kofford Books ).

Quote

One question of special interest to many Mormons was the location of the Lost Tribes of Israel, who, as part of the winding-up scene, were expected to return. What had Joseph to say on this subject? In 1884 Abraham H. Cannon noted in his diary that he had called upon Eliza R. Snow, who said she had heard Joseph Smith say, 'When the ten tribes were taken away, the earth was divided, so that they occupy a separate planet from this.' Martha Cox heard the same story from her father, who told her that the Prophet had said to him 'that at the north pole the earth is convex or cup shaped with deepest sea resting there. The planet that belonged to that part of the world would in time return to its place, strike the earth at that part, completing the sphere.' All of which led Eliza R. Snow to compose a hymn, three stanzas of which follow:

Thou, earth, wast once a glorious sphere
Of noble magnitude,
And didst with majesty appear,
Among the worlds of God.

But thy dimensions have been torn
Asunder, piece by piece,
And each dismembered fragment borne
Abroad to distant space...

And when the Lord saw fit to hide
The 'Ten Lost Tribes' away,
Thou, earth, was severed to provide
The orb on which they stay.

The whole 'doctrine,' besides resting on the recollections of Eliza Snow and Martha Cox, was found in the family tradition of Patriarch Homer M. Brown, who in 1924 told in lavish detail of a conversation between his grandfather, Benjamin Brown, and the Prophet.

The trouble was that others remembered differently. In 1886, when asked what the Prophet had said regarding the Ten Tribes, Anson Call wrote: 'I have heard Joseph say that the ten tribes were in the northern interior of the earth, and that they retain their tribe relations and their strength and manhood, that they have not dwindled, as we have, for they have been favored of the Lord, and have retained their organizations and understood well the redemption and have ever had in their midst the true prophets of the Lord.' Did Joseph Smith make both statements? Or only one? Or neither? Or did he use a crucial world like 'perhaps' or 'possibly' that was forgotten in the later traditions? In any case, one of the problems of oral tradition as a source of doctrinal truth is well illustrated.

Bitton concludes this section by observing: "One has to suspect that an occasional tongue-in-cheek mood was lost, if not on his hearers, at least by those in later generations who passed on the Smith apocrypha with utter seriousness" (Davis Bitton, Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1996], 90–92).

Edited August 22, 2018 by Nevo

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, Nevo said:

Davis Bitton had an interesting section on Lost 10 Tribes speculation in his book, Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith (since republished by Kofford Books ).

Bitton concludes this section by observing: "One has to suspect that an occasional tongue-in-cheek mood was lost, if not on his hearers, at least by those in later generations who passed on the Smith apocrypha with utter seriousness" (Davis Bitton, Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1996], 90–92).

Joseph Smith allegedly made a drawing of this. Philo Dibble attempted to redraw it:

Commenters on the diagram propose:
 
A represents Earth
B represents the sphere inhabited by the lost tribes 
C represents the sphere holding the City of Enoch 

This also aligns with Orson Hyde's comments about the spheres of heaven. 

“The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were separated from the Earth or a portion of the Earth was, by a miracle, broken off and that the Ten Tribes were taken away with it, and that in the latter days it would be restored to the Earth or be let down in the polar regions.” - Orson Pratt

“About the time of Abraham, the Tower of Babel was built. … They thought that the City of Enoch was caught up a little ways from the earth, and that the city was within the first sphere above the earth; and that if they could get a tower high enough they might get to heaven where the City of Enoch and the inhabitants thereof were located.” - Orson Pratt

[RevTestament]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I thought all the water from the flood supposedly escaped into the hollow earth- and also game out of the "fountains of the deep" or something like that.

And did you know that the Bible confirms guided evolution?   Gen 1

What brought forth life?

The waters and the earth! 

So He used the waters and the earth to create the creatures and he then certified that they were "good" and built to specifications..... 

(No I am not serious but it could be interpreted that way....)

And then it goes on with special creation for Man- so there you have it.  Evolution and then direct intervention for Man only.  Plain as day. 

 

Not really. Man was not special in this regard. He was made from the dust or dust of the earth, so the earth brought him forth too. Adam only had life when God breathed it into him though, which was the Hebrew equivalent of saying God breathed his spirit into him.

I find nothing inconsistent with evolution in the Bible though as you point out. Life brings forth after its own kind. This is not an error according to the theory of evolution. It is a genetic law really. Mutations occur slowly through life bringing forth its own kind. The idea of God creating everything in a flash is only supported by reading the word "day" as one of our literal days rather than a generation in the creation of the earth.9

[HiJolly]

I remember as a youth in the 70's, in Mesa AZ going to a fireside where the "hollow earth' theory was presented to us (in the Church building) as the probable location of the 10 tribes. I remember going to the library and checking out a book on the theory. And then later, learning a bit about geology that pretty much debunked it all. 

Fun times. 

 

[clarkgoble]

13 hours ago, Nevo said:

Davis Bitton had an interesting section on Lost 10 Tribes speculation in his book, Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith (since republished by Kofford Books ).

Bitton concludes this section by observing: "One has to suspect that an occasional tongue-in-cheek mood was lost, if not on his hearers, at least by those in later generations who passed on the Smith apocrypha with utter seriousness" (Davis Bitton, Images of the Prophet Joseph Smith [Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1996], 90–92).

While being tongue in cheek is quite possible (see his etymology of Mor-mon that people took seriously), it really sounds more like a mangled account of a second city of Enoch among some group of the lost tribes. It's interesting that while we don't really think of them that way due to the time period when they left, the Book of Mormon are Ephraim and Mannaseh and thus are technically the northern tribes as well.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Not really. Man was not special in this regard. He was made from the dust or dust of the earth, so the earth brought him forth too. Adam only had life when God breathed it into him though, which was the Hebrew equivalent of saying God breathed his spirit into him.

I find nothing inconsistent with evolution in the Bible though as you point out. Life brings forth after its own kind. This is not an error according to the theory of evolution. It is a genetic law really. Mutations occur slowly through life bringing forth its own kind. The idea of God creating everything in a flash is only supported by reading the word "day" as one of our literal days rather than a generation in the creation of the earth.9

I am always fond of pointing out that God defines a "day" in terms of accomplishments, and "calls" that set of accomplishment a "day", almost like we would say, after working hard, "Ok, let's call it a day." 

[canard78]

On 8/21/2018 at 11:31 PM, CA Steve said:

Given that we don't know everything about the interior of the earth, it is impossible to rule out the possibility that some day we may find evidence of the lost ten tribes there. Since we don't really know what an artifact from those lost ten tribe would look like after they have been underground for so long, it is entirely possible that every time we witness a volcanic eruption we are seeing ancient Israeli artifacts in molten form. 

I've been away from the board too long to remember whether you're a @The Nehor-style jokester and wind-up-merchant... or whether you're deadly serious.

I'm hoping the former. That would make far more sense.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I've been away from the board too long to remember whether you're a @The Nehor-style jokester and wind-up-merchant... or whether you're deadly serious.

I'm hoping the former. That would make far more sense.

Poe’s Law

Without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the parodied views.

[cinepro]

On 8/21/2018 at 3:34 PM, smac97 said:

 

These folks were guessing about things well beyond their ability to test.  A theory about a hollow earth would have seemed no more absurd than a theory about sending men to the moon, or flying across the skies faster than the speed of sound.  

 

The problem is when such ideas aren't presented as "guesses."

There's a huge difference between "I'm guessing the Earth is hollow with men living inside" and "The Earth is hollow with men living inside." 

Especially when the person making the claim is believed to have access to infallible sources of knowledge about unknown things.

[Storm Rider]

This hurts my head. Faith and Reason are eternal companions - ignorance is not in the mix. Run from it - get an education.