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Utah ranks as one of the most sexist states in the US

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 Robert, maybe it's my age, but the older I get the more I want to return to the 50's way of life. I have three married children, and only one set have children. The other sets have been married long enough to start having children. But my daughter is struggling to get pregnant, but she has waited years before trying to get pregnant and my daughter-in-law has waited three years, so who knows. I guess I'm very anxious about couples choosing not to have children at all. But that is their choice, it's just my old fashioned mindset I guess. But I am sounding just like my elders in life now.

But I'm sick of social media, sometimes I wish everyone went off the grid. Actually, I think I should have been born in a different era now, just want all the noise, and crap to disappear. Less traffic, less news or fake news, less access to what everyone and their dog is doing, I could go on and on...

Sorry for the rant. 

You have legitimate concerns.  It would really help if student debt was not such a burden, and if youth could feel secure enough for marriage and children.  You are so right.  It was much better in the 1950s.  People were actually nicer to one another.  Less blaming and more acceptance.  We are all flawed humans in need of some mercy.

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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15 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't see how that is sexist.  It seems clear to me that a woman who stays home with her children has more opportunity to establish a warm and secure relationship with their children.  Those mothers who leave their children in day care for 8-12 hours/day are disadvantaged when it comes to developing a relationship with their children.  It is a matter of time, not sexism.

And conversely, of course, fathers who fail to stay home with their children are also failing in their fatherly duties and can't possibly have as close of a relationship. Right?

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10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have legitimate concerns.  It would really help if student debt was not such a burden, and if youth could feel secure enough for marriage and children.  You are so right.  It was much better in the 1950s.  People were actually nicer to one another.  Less blaming and more acceptance.  We are all flawed humans in need of some mercy.

For who? 

 

Not one iota of me wants to go back to a time large swathes of my family would have faced overt racism. I don’t want a time where me working is a scandal (crap my job itself, if it had existed, would have been its own point to ostracize me, in all likelihood).  I don’t want a time where my grandmother was trapped in a horrifyingly bad marriage to a man who harmed her children (it was a mix if societal pressures and expectations that left her trapped in a marriage). I’ll never fully get this glorification of the past. Maybe family values tended to be stronger, but there was plenty else going on during the time that was just as ugly.

 

with luv,

BD

Edited by BlueDreams
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12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What is heartening, is the change in stats over the decades showing that men share much more of the homework with their working wives than was the case many years ago.  That is not accidental, and does not depend upon offhand opinion.

Most studies point to general reduction in the gender gap in several areas (pay, chores, education, etc). But in many of these areas, true parity still hasn't happened.

 

Quote

One unsettling aspect of unconditional (even if unstated) demands made by each gender of the other is the alienation and anomie exhibited by our larger society.  I don't know how true it may be of Utah and Mormons, but this means nationwide that fewer people live together, fewer people  marry, fewer people have children -- fewer than at any time in our nation's history on all those counts.  We may be smug about opinion poll results, while the real tragedy may be that the blame game gets us only loneliness.  We need kindness, forgiveness, tolerance, and forbearance.

i am confused by what you mean of the bolded part.

 

With luv,

BD

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

And conversely, of course, fathers who fail to stay home with their children are also failing in their fatherly duties and can't possibly have as close of a relationship. Right?

Pogi didn't say that a working mother was failing in her motherly responsibility so your question about working father's isn't really the converse of his statement.

But answering your question, I agree with Pogi.  I think that most working fathers are at a disadvantage when it comes to developing relationships with their children.  That certainly doesn't mean that a working father doesn't love his children dearly and that they don't love him dearly as well.  It also doesn't mean that they can't have a really great relationship that is equal to the relationship a stay at home father would have, it just means that having a similar relationship will take more work and effort and desire than it does someone who has more time and opportunity and is the primary caregiver.

Infants and toddlers thrive best when they have one primary caregiver (and not two caregivers that try to share care of the infant equally), so in that regard one parent will always be a little disadvantaged.  It's ok to recognize that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

And conversely, of course, fathers who fail to stay home with their children are also failing in their fatherly duties and can't possibly have as close of a relationship. Right?

The question said nothing about "duty".  But yes, the working father will be disadvantaged in the same way.

The point is that the question was poorly written.  I have no problems with a working mother and stay at home father, but the way I would have answered that question would have been interpreted as a sexist response, when it wasn't.  To me, the question is about how time with children affects relationships.  I don't know how they could possibly deduce sexism from any response without making some serious assumptions, like you have just done.  

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This doesn't really surprise me, sadly. My sister teaches engineering at BYU, and a few years ago, I looked her up on RateMyProfessor. I expected the usual complaining from people who didn't get the grades they wanted, and there was plenty of that, but what surprised me were the comments that had nothing to do with her knowledge or abilities as a teacher but were about her gender and appearance and how she should "sit at home and play with grand kids, do household stuffs but not come to BYU and annoy engineers brain." I've never had a class from my sister, and obviously I'm biased, but she has been given awards by the university for her teaching, sits on a public energy advisory council, and has the highest percentage of undergraduate students who secure internships in her field. I'm guessing that even an incompetent male professor would not get remarks about his looks and his role doing "household stuffs."

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1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

This doesn't really surprise me, sadly. My sister teaches engineering at BYU, and a few years ago, I looked her up on RateMyProfessor. I expected the usual complaining from people who didn't get the grades they wanted, and there was plenty of that, but what surprised me were the comments that had nothing to do with her knowledge or abilities as a teacher but were about her gender and appearance and how she should "sit at home and play with grand kids, do household stuffs but not come to BYU and annoy engineers brain." I've never had a class from my sister, and obviously I'm biased, but she has been given awards by the university for her teaching, sits on a public energy advisory council, and has the highest percentage of undergraduate students who secure internships in her field. I'm guessing that even an incompetent male professor would not get remarks about his looks and his role doing "household stuffs."

It would be interesting to check the reviews of other male teachers on ratemyprofessor, just to see what the negative reviews said.  I think you're probably right about not finding complaining about them not being home with their grandkids, but from my experience, a good deal of complaining about professors (whatever the gender) focuses on a commenting on something other than the teaching or classroom.  It seems like the preferred passive/aggressive method for students to get back at their teacher for having the upper hand all semester. 

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1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

For who? 

 

Not one iota of me wants to go back to a time my whole would have faced overt racism. I don’t want a time where me working is a scandal (crap my job itself, if it had existed, would have been its own point to ostracize me, in all likelihood).  I don’t want a time where my grandmother was trapped in a horrifyingly bad marriage to a man who harmed her children (it was a mix if societal pressures and expectations that left her trapped in a marriage). I’ll never fully get this glorification of the past. Maybe family values tended to be stronger, but there was plenty else going on during the time that was just as ugly.

with luv,

BD

I wasn't alive in the 1950s, but I do think we have this idealized, Ozzie and Harriet meet Leave it to Beaver vision of that time in our history, which is a pretty selective way of looking at the past. The other day I was watching a DVD about life in Ogden, Utah, in the 1950s with my parents. My dad, who grew up in Ogden, was really enjoying telling us about what he did, where he went, and who his friends were. It all sounded like malt shops and sock hops, but then they talked about prostitution, alcohol, and drugs, political corruption, and racism (yes, even in Ogden black people had to sit at the back of the balcony in the theaters). What I concluded is that the same kinds of things that happen openly today were around then but not discussed in public. Polite society didn't want to talk about teen pregnancy or "same-sex attraction." Some things, however, such as racism, were openly discussed, tolerated, and even encouraged. My dad expressed his displeasure that the one black woman they interviewed talked about the racism, as he thought she was making too big a deal out of it (apparently, acknowledging its existence meant she had an ax to grind). My mom, however, said she appreciated that the woman was not bitter about it. But it was kind of this weird "don't interrupt my fantasy past with what it was actually like" attitude.

So, no, I don't want to go back to that, either. 

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7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to check the reviews of other male teachers on ratemyprofessor, just to see what the negative reviews said.  I think you're probably right about not finding complaining about them not being home with their grandkids, but from my experience, a good deal of complaining about professors (whatever the gender) focuses on a commenting on something other than the teaching or classroom.  It seems like the preferred passive/aggressive method for students to get back at their teacher for having the upper hand all semester. 

Yes, I completely understand that. As I said, that's what I expected. These kinds of websites are used overwhelmingly by students who are upset with a teacher and want to "get back" at them, as you say. It was the focus on her looks and her gender that surprised me. I don't believe you would expect to read a student commenting on a male professor's "pretty little head." 

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11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Yes, I completely understand that. As I said, that's what I expected. These kinds of websites are used overwhelmingly by students who are upset with a teacher and want to "get back" at them, as you say. It was the focus on her looks and her gender that surprised me. I don't believe you would expect to read a student commenting on a male professor's "pretty little head." 

You might be surprised!  :lol:

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33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You might be surprised!  :lol:

Maybe if it was Gilderoy Lockhart. 

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5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

.............................................

Quote

One unsettling aspect of unconditional (even if unstated) demands made by each gender of the other is the alienation and anomie exhibited by our larger society.

i am confused by what you mean of the bolded part.....................

Each gender demands certain basic rights and privileges from the other gender, with no room for negotiation.  The result is alienation and general dissatisfaction by each side, and an unwillingness to be tolerant and understanding.  No amount of effort by each side is ever enough.  This leads directly to much greater dissatisfaction generally, and to less marriage, less children, less patience, and less conviviality.  Society in general is in deep trouble, with no apparent way out.  More women now go to college and to graduate school than men.

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6 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

For who? 

Not one iota of me wants to go back to a time large swathes of my family would have faced overt racism. I don’t want a time where me working is a scandal (crap my job itself, if it had existed, would have been its own point to ostracize me, in all likelihood).  I don’t want a time where my grandmother was trapped in a horrifyingly bad marriage to a man who harmed her children (it was a mix if societal pressures and expectations that left her trapped in a marriage). I’ll never fully get this glorification of the past. Maybe family values tended to be stronger, but there was plenty else going on during the time that was just as ugly..........................

Not every family had that sort of destructive internal structure.  Indeed, at the time of the Great Migration from the South, the typical Black family had two parents and children, while Motown wrote the great American song book for both Black and White folk.  Crime rates were very low, drugs were not a major problem, and the USA seemed like a very good place to be.  Pres Truman had desegregated the Armed Forces. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously decided Brown v Board of Education, and Dr Martin Luther King began a movement which would result in the 1964 and 1965 civil rights acts.  These changes were huge, and we are still facing some resistance among Trumpworlders.

Do we have horrific problems today?  Of course.  But things have in fact changed enormously and real opportunities have opened up for the previously benighted.  Still, there was once a more tranquil age for most of America, and it is sad that the throes of change have left so many behind wondering what happened?

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7 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

For who? 

 

Not one iota of me wants to go back to a time large swathes of my family would have faced overt racism. I don’t want a time where me working is a scandal (crap my job itself, if it had existed, would have been its own point to ostracize me, in all likelihood).  I don’t want a time where my grandmother was trapped in a horrifyingly bad marriage to a man who harmed her children (it was a mix if societal pressures and expectations that left her trapped in a marriage). I’ll never fully get this glorification of the past. Maybe family values tended to be stronger, but there was plenty else going on during the time that was just as ugly.

 

with luv,

BD

Very true, I would never want to go back to that. I guess what I was trying to say, is back in the 50's it seemed like everything was all laid out, but really, progress is good too. I feel for my daughters who have to work and raise a family I guess. Have you seen the movie Blackkklansman? Incredible movie. 

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13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not every family had that sort of destructive internal structure.  Indeed, at the time of the Great Migration from the South, the typical Black family had two parents and children, while Motown wrote the great American song book for both Black and White folk.  Crime rates were very low, drugs were not a major problem, and the USA seemed like a very good place to be.  Pres Truman had desegregated the Armed Forces. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously decided Brown v Board of Education, and Dr Martin Luther King began a movement which would result in the 1964 and 1965 civil rights acts.  These changes were huge, and we are still facing some resistance among Trumpworlders.

Do we have horrific problems today?  Of course.  But things have in fact changed enormously and real opportunities have opened up for the previously benighted.  Still, there was once a more tranquil age for most of America, and it is sad that the throes of change have left so many behind wondering what happened?

The grandmother I mentioned was my white mormon one married to another white mormon living in a small farm town in Idaho. She had lost her first husband to cancer whom she met in college. When she married him, she quickly quit school (having her MRS degree) and never completed her degree..even though she was a valedictorian in her high school years. She married her second in part due to a sense of a need to marry and have stability with two young children and counsel not to marry someone who hadn't been sealed. So she married my grandfather. Who turned out to be a child molester. This was in the 60's and 70's. I'm not saying that this is likely to happen by any stretch of the imagination during the 1950's or now. But much of what I know about her story and what made it worse were predominant cultural expectations and sexism both in and out of the church that left her trapped in a bad marriage for decades. My other american Grandma was mexican-american. She sat in segregated movie theaters and had extremely limited professional opportunities (think migrant workers and trash pickers). My only Black Grandmother, was in nigeria with what was likely an alcoholic husband. She couldn't leave, because the laws in her country at the time meant that if she did, her husband would retain all rights to the children....She then in the 70's (again, well past the 50's) had to help herd her family across the country as refugees during a civil war and lost newborn twins along the way because of it. Maybe because of the family stories I have, I've never felt anything but privileged to be in a time as is now. 

That the US was beginning to make positive changes in race relations is not the same as having the legacy of those positive changes be more settled and unquestioned. Those years would equal long, hard, and often bloody fights for the systematic terrorism and oppression of POC to more significantly change/desist. I don't picture that time as a more tranquil age. It's probably aided by me being relatively young, but I don't fully get those who look back with nostalgia for the "good ole days." I'm in a better place than many of my fore-bearers when it comes to tranquility, choice, and comfort. 

 

With luv,

BD

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9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Very true, I would never want to go back to that. I guess what I was trying to say, is back in the 50's it seemed like everything was all laid out, but really, progress is good too. I feel for my daughters who have to work and raise a family I guess. Have you seen the movie Blackkklansman? Incredible movie. 

It's on my list...I'll probably wait for redbox though. I have a thing with watching more special effects movies on the big screen and more drama type stuff on the small. 

I would agree, it was likely more laid out. For me, I don't know if that's something I would have actually want, even if the course looked a little prettier than my racial background would have allowed. The openness to opportunity means that there's more options for failure....but also more ways to succeed as well :) 

 

With luv,

BD

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On 8/22/2018 at 5:40 AM, Gray said:

And Utah is one of the worst states for income disparity by gender, so at some point the opinions intersect with the environment.

Yes, but could that have to do with intermittant part time work due to family priorities?  I wonder how many use those studies to influence their decisions?  If so, it's a shame.  By 2100, the UN predicts that nearly 30 percent of the population  will be made up of people 60 years and older.  Not replacing ourselves, we have a looming eldercare/healthcare/medical crisis.  And the average age is going up-- currently 69.1 for males and 73.8 for females.  I would guess that most out of step people in Utah are happy with their lifestyle choice.

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On 8/22/2018 at 4:59 PM, bluebell said:

I don't really see how that would demonstrate sexism either.  How is whether or not a woman can work and have a good relationship with her kids sexist?  You would first have to know how someone would answer that question about men before you could gauge anything from it, wouldn't you?

I notice people don't often say the same thing about fathers who work vs fathers who stay home.

What about these other questions?

  • * “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men”
  • * It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and women takes care of the home and family
  • * “Would you vote a female for President?
  • * “Are  men better suited emotionally for politics than are most women?”

Depending on how answered, I think these ones also would give a very good indication of sexism.

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20 minutes ago, Gray said:

I notice people don't often say the same thing about fathers who work vs fathers who stay home.

What about these other questions?

  • * “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men”
  • * It is much better for everyone involved if the man is the achiever outside the home and women takes care of the home and family
  • * “Would you vote a female for President?
  • * “Are  men better suited emotionally for politics than are most women?”

Depending on how answered, I think these ones also would give a very good indication of sexism.

They could, but it really depends on whether or not the answers translate into actions that affect other people.

For example, someone might believe that in general men are better suited for political than most women, but they might still vote for a specific woman candidate or support female friends and family in running for office.  Someone could believe that it's best for men to be the achiever outside of the home and for women to take care of the home and family, but could also support other women's choices to do what they believe it best for their own circumstances.

I just don't feel those questions alone are enough information to judge how sexist the environment is in any given state.  

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57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They could, but it really depends on whether or not the answers translate into actions that affect other people.

For example, someone might believe that in general men are better suited for political than most women, but they might still vote for a specific woman candidate or support female friends and family in running for office.  Someone could believe that it's best for men to be the achiever outside of the home and for women to take care of the home and family, but could also support other women's choices to do what they believe it best for their own circumstances.

I just don't feel those questions alone are enough information to judge how sexist the environment is in any given state.  

To me a "yes" answer to “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men” is a giant red flag that indicates quite deeply ingrained sexism, regardless of how one votes.

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16 minutes ago, Gray said:

To me a "yes" answer to “Women should take care of running their home and leave running the country up to men” is a giant red flag that indicates quite deeply ingrained sexism, regardless of how one votes.

I disagree.  :pardon: 

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On 8/21/2018 at 3:32 PM, Gray said:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/21/researchers-identify-most/

This is sad to hear. I've never lived in Utah, only visited occasionally and briefly. I wonder what can be done to improve things there?

 

Not to worry. The open-minded Californians will continue moving to UT, bringing their enlightened non-sexist culture with them.

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12 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Not to worry. The open-minded Californians will continue moving to UT, bringing their enlightened non-sexist culture with them.

Oh yes.  Just one example:  their superior insights into the numerous gender descriptions will cause scales of darkness to fall off the hayseed's eyes.  http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html

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