Rain Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, SouthernMo said: Got it. So you see that we can still call ourselves Mormons as a part of the "I'm a Mormon" campaign, we just don't want to be called Mormons because that's not the name of the church? Not me. That was just how I was thinking Scott saw it. I don't see a real difference. I mean I can technically see a difference, but it feels the same to me, but trying to see it from Scott's point of view and remembering how Scott sees language helped me to see that for some people there will be a difference. 2 Link to comment
Rain Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t concede that it is necessary for a headline to convey each and every element of a story (indeed such a thing would be impossible). Nor do I read the updated style guide as directing that a headline must contain the full and formal name of the Church. That assumption is absurd, and I don’t know where it came from. And is it really that difficult to see a distinction between calling the Church of Jesus Christ “the Mormon Church” and calling a member of the Church a Mormon? For most people yes. Your mind just works differently than most - not saying that is a bad thing as my son's mind works differently as well and I believe that is a gift. 2 Link to comment
canard78 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 On 8/18/2018 at 4:26 PM, Nevo said: Since we're on the subject, when are we going to talk about the small d in "Latter-day Saints," which is in violation of CMOS 17, section 8, subsection 161 ("Hyphenated compounds in headline-style titles")? That's been bugging me for a long time Seriously, though. I raised my arm to sustain President Nelson in a solemn assembly just a little over 4 months ago, so I am hesitant to criticize this new direction too much. I knew what I was getting into. Having observed President Nelson over many years and having read a good chunk of his official biography, I knew he wouldn't simply be a caretaker president. And knowing myself, I had an inkling that he might do and say some things that would cause me heartburn at some point. But this isn't one of those things. President Nelson's short statement on the front page of lds.org doesn't bother me at all, actually. I can accept it without reservation (even the part where he says that this is an "important matter"). And I'm mostly okay with the Newsroom style guide statement. The one line that chafes a bit is the sentence: "The term 'Mormonism' is inaccurate and should not be used." I think that could be more nuanced, as the term is useful (and probably indispensable) in academic and historical contexts. My brother is a writer and an academic, with his area of focus being British Mormonism in the 19th C. I asked him what word would be used instead, given “restored gospel of Jesus Christ” would be unwieldy at best and likely rejected by editors in any case. He’s not sure yet how he’s going to try to sustain the prophet while managing his academic commitments. 1 Link to comment
JulieM Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Until last week, that was my attitude. I now desire to support President Nelson and the Church leaders in the new directive. Ok. I honestly feel you walk a fine line that may be off putting for non members. If someone asked if you were a Mormon, and you corrected them (NO! I’m a member of...), that may cause them to just roll their eyes and become less interested. I think you need to be careful about overly correcting others and more focused on trying to make sure you state things correctly in your own public talks or communications. Edited August 20, 2018 by JulieM Link to comment
canard78 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t concede that it is necessary for a headline to convey each and every element of a story (indeed such a thing would be impossible). Nor do I read the updated style guide as directing that a headline must contain the full and formal name of the Church. That assumption is absurd, and I don’t know where it came from. And is it really that difficult to see a distinction between calling the Church of Jesus Christ “the Mormon Church” and calling a member of the Church a Mormon? So do you anticipate Des News and other publications using short hand like “Mormon” or “LDS” in headlines? Are you saying to do that would not break the style guide and request from Pres. Nelson? Link to comment
Jeanne Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 After all the hoopla on this...I am thinking about changing my name on the board...You guys can call me..NoMo FoMo. ☺️ Of course, for those of you who live near by..I would rather you call me...to dinner. 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Until last week, that was my attitude. I now desire to support President Nelson and the Church leaders in the new directive Quote "Mormons" are a faith community. Those who attack the faith are attacking the community. Those people are "Mormons" even less than Quisling was a Norwegian. -- Kiwi57 So are you going to change your tag line? If you do, can you still call it a quote? Link to comment
Calm Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, canard78 said: My brother is a writer and an academic, with his area of focus being British Mormonism in the 19th C. I asked him what word would be used instead, given “restored gospel of Jesus Christ” would be unwieldy at best and likely rejected by editors in any case. He’s not sure yet how he’s going to try to sustain the prophet while managing his academic commitments. I would appreciate learning what his solution ends up being. I am rather at a loss myself for a practical solution that doesn't require a considerable explanation when used. Edited August 20, 2018 by Calm 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Now that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is abandoning the use of the word Mormon when referring to members, I wonder if it will have any bearing on the litigation the church is having with this dating website? A trademark fight over the word 'Mormon' 2 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 34 minutes ago, california boy said: So are you going to change your tag line? If you do, can you still call it a quote? It <is> a quote, an attributed one. And the quoted writer put “Mormon” in quotation marks. So I don’t see it as problematic. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, california boy said: Now that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is abandoning the use of the word Mormon when referring to members, I wonder if it will have any bearing on the litigation the church is having with this dating website? A trademark fight over the word 'Mormon' Who said the Church is abandoning the word? Edited August 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, canard78 said: So do you anticipate Des News and other publications using short hand like “Mormon” or “LDS” in headlines? Are you saying to do that would not break the style guide and request from Pres. Nelson? I don’t speak for the Deseret News nor do I work for it. But I notice Tad Walch, for one, has conformed to the updated style guide in stories about it. Link to comment
california boy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: Who staid the Church is abandoning the word? Well I didn't say the Church was abandoning the word did I. I said: Now that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is abandoning the use of the word Mormon when referring to members Link to comment
california boy Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It <is> a quote, an attributed one. And the quoted writer put “Mormon” in quotation marks. So I don’t see it as problematic. Thanks for the answer. I wondered how you would handle that. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) [Posted in error] Edited August 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, JulieM said: Ok. I honestly feel you walk a fine line that may be off putting for non members. If someone asked if you were a Mormon, and you corrected them (NO! I’m a member of...), that may cause them to just roll their eyes and become less interested. I think you need to be careful about overly correcting others and more focused on trying to make sure you state things correctly in your talks and communication. In saying I “walk a fine line that would be off-putting,” you are making an unwarranted assumption about me. My response in such a situation would not be “no,” It would be “yes.” Depending on the circumstance, I <might> say, “Yes, I’m a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Depending further on the circumstances, including how interested the person seemed to be, I might, being careful to avoid an accusatory tone, go on to explain, “The leaders of our church have very recently asked the rank-and-file members to move away from using the expression ‘Mormon’ as a self-identifier and instead use the term “Latter-day Saint,” which comes from the full and formal name of the Church.” I would leave it at that, unless the person had sincere questions, which I would endeavor to answer patiently and congenially. I don’t see how a reasonable and fair-minded person would find the above approach “off-putting.” You are making an unwarranted assumption that I would <not> be “more focused on trying to make sure [that I] state things correctly in [my] talks and communication.” Edited August 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 2 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 2 hours ago, canard78 said: So do you anticipate Des News and other publications using short hand like “Mormon” or “LDS” in headlines? Are you saying to do that would not break the style guide and request from Pres. Nelson? I don’t speak for the Deseret News. and I especially don’t speak for other publications. I don’t yet know what they will do. Time will tell, I suppose. Link to comment
JulieM Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: In saying I “walk a fine line that would be off-putting,” you are making an unwarranted assumption about me. My response in such a situation would not be “no,” It would be “yes.” Depending on the circumstance, I <might> say, “Yes, I’m a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Depending further on the circumstances, including how interested the person seemed to be, I might, being careful to avoid an accusatory tone, go on to explain, “The leaders of our church have very recently asked the rank-and-file members to move away from using the expression ‘Mormon’ as a self-identifier and instead use the term “Latter-day Saint,” which comes from the full and formal name of the Church.” I would leave it at that, unless the person had sincere questions, which I would endeavor to answer patiently and congenially. I don’t see how a reasonable and fair-minded person would find the above approach “off-putting.” You are making an unwarranted assumption that I would <not> be “more focused on trying to make sure state things correctly in [my] talks and communication.” So in essence you’d still be saying “no, I’m not a Mormon, I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Sounds like we agree 😀 Or, would you really say, “Yes, I’m a Mormon”? Edited August 20, 2018 by JulieM Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, JulieM said: So in essence you’d still be saying “no, I’m not a Mormon, I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. Sounds like we agree 😀 Or, would you really say, “Yes, I’m a Mormon”? No, that’s not an accurate restatement of what I said. We do not agree. I’ve already told you what I would say. There’s no point in asking what I would “really” say. 3 Link to comment
ttribe Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 54 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t speak for the Deseret News nor do I work for it. But I notice Tad Walch, for one, has conformed to the updated style guide in stories about it. Since when do you not work for the Deseret News? Did you retire? https://www.deseretnews.com/author/2508/R-Scott-Lloyd.html Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ttribe said: Since when do you not work for the Deseret News? Did you retire? https://www.deseretnews.com/author/2508/R-Scott-Lloyd.html Yes. In May. Edited August 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
JulieM Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: No, that’s not an accurate restatement of what I said. We do not agree. I’ve already told you what I would say. There’s no point in asking what I would “really” say. What would your response be to someone asking, “Are you a Mormon?” (I really am trying to understand you here.) Link to comment
ttribe Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Yes. In May. Well, congratulations! That's great! I would LOVE to retire...ever. My oldest half-brother retired at age 40...when I hit 40 a few years ago I looked at my bank account and shook my head. Still don't know how he did that. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, ttribe said: Well, congratulations! That's great! I would LOVE to retire...ever. My oldest half-brother retired at age 40...when I hit 40 a few years ago I looked at my bank account and shook my head. Still don't know how he did that. Thank you. I would advise you to put as much as you can into a 401K or other good retirement plan. And familiarize yourself with Social Security provisions (the Social Security Administration has a very helpful website, and if you start an account there, you can get income projections based on your wage or salary history). If you have access to the services of a good retirement planner (I got that free of charge through my company benefit provider) take advantage of it. It’s never too early. Knowledge is power, in this as much as anything else. Edited August 20, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) On 8/19/2018 at 7:34 PM, JulieM said: What would your response be to someone asking, “Are you a Mormon?” (I really am trying to understand you here.) I already answered that. My response would be “yes.” My answer is not going to change regardless of how many times you repeat the question. Edited August 21, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
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