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Josh516

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http://52weeks52churches.blogspot.com/2014/05/my-surreal-visit-to-apostolic-united.html

I had family in Bluffdale that have since moved but I would go there often for various things and remember the buildings shown in this blog and them talking about the polygamist families nearby, nothing bad.

I am curious to know if what this person in the blog said is true and that you want LDS to join the AUB church because it is the most pure, my words. And another thing I noticed that I quite like, was that you use all of the bread and water in the Sacrament even if you bless the Sacrament a second time so as to finish all of the bread and water and not throw anything away.

Also, I understand if people are suspicious of visitors showing up to the services because living polygamy is still illegal in Utah and they are leery of being arrested. 

 

Edited by Tacenda
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On August 10, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Josh516 said:

*I don't even know how I got married once lol

Welcome, but did you answer? "If" you are a polygamist, well under the law a bigamist? My bio-father was a bigamist, with no moral or Priesthood (contrived or real) authority behind it. Meaning he was not, nor ever LDS, just a very bad man, husband and father. Once my mother "his first and legal wife", found out, he left us to starve on the street. The only good thing he left me was the resolve to NEVER be that kind of husband and father, to NEVER be unfaithful and break the heart of those I love and cherish. Also praise be to God, he sent into our lives a great man who married my Mother, and gave my two siblings and myself his name, he was a wonderful Baptist Minister who taught me to be a good man. For my own soul's sake, I had to let go of the anger and resentment I had for him, and forgive him. His behavior however, was and is deplorable. However I do welcome you, but hope you are will only too explain your beliefs here, and not seek to defend polygamy, because it's day has passed, praise be to God and the laws of all Western Nations that have outlawed it. So again welcome, and I hope your stay here is enjoyable. 

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I briefly went over the article and I would say that's probably accurate. In a small religious faith like ours, we know when there's a new comer so people will kind of flock around to see that individuals for themselves and get a feel for who they are. Since we do try and protect ourselves legally and get along with the laws of the land, having some random person show up that admitted they didn't even so much as believe in the Book of Mormon would be confusing to say the least, and very suspicious to say the most. We've had numerous undercover investigators come just to find something to tear us down in the media with. It's very difficult fighting with how we're viewed when we have people like Warren Jeffs tainting the rest of us. 

And yes, I do have more than one wife. Though my intention is not to argue that point here, unless it comes up in a round-a-bout matter. My main purpose for being here is simply to learn how to better express my thoughts, argue effectively, learn more about Mormon Apologetics, and make some good friends in the process :) 

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1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

 However I do welcome you, but hope you are will only too explain your beliefs here, and not seek to defend polygamy, because it's day has passed

Forgive me, perhaps I'm incorrect, but I was under the impression that the purpose of this site was to discuss controversial issues and have ongoing dialogues about them? In other words, isn't this site meant as a platform for Apologetics?

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12 minutes ago, Josh516 said:

I briefly went over the article and I would say that's probably accurate. In a small religious faith like ours, we know when there's a new comer so people will kind of flock around to see that individuals for themselves and get a feel for who they are. Since we do try and protect ourselves legally and get along with the laws of the land, having some random person show up that admitted they didn't even so much as believe in the Book of Mormon would be confusing to say the least, and very suspicious to say the most. We've had numerous undercover investigators come just to find something to tear us down in the media with. It's very difficult fighting with how we're viewed when we have people like Warren Jeffs tainting the rest of us. 

And yes, I do have more than one wife. Though my intention is not to argue that point here, unless it comes up in a round-a-bout matter. My main purpose for being here is simply to learn how to better express my thoughts, argue effectively, learn more about Mormon Apologetics, and make some good friends in the process :) 

Do you guys proselyte?  If not, how do you square that with Jesus's commandment to go forth and teach the world His gospel, baptizing them?  (Not asking so I can argue, just wanting to understand this religion better and this is a great opportunity).

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Don't be sorry...it's half the reason I'm here lol I'd like to learn how to explain my beliefs better, and maybe even come to some conclusions wherein my thinking and beliefs have been inaccurate. We don't proselyte for a couple reasons. Firstly, we believe its a function of the Church, which Church we support and believe in. Our purpose for the most part is to keep things alive like polygamy and full consecration, which things are much higher doctrines. In other words, proselyting should be done through the fundamentals of the gospel, like Joseph Smith and his vision, Faith, Family, Jesus Christ, the Church, and those things. I suppose we "could" proselyte, but we'd only teach the things that the Church already teaches, then tell them not to join our group, but to join the Church...which would be pretty confusing lol. The AUB group isn't so much a religious faith as it is a body of people with an objective within the body of Mormonism as a whole. Again, the matter gets down into how we believe the Church, Priesthood, and Kingdom of God are separate organizations. We aren't the Church, and we admit to being apostates of the Church. But we do believe we have proper Priesthood and we function through the Priesthood, not the Church.

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19 minutes ago, Josh516 said:

Don't be sorry...it's half the reason I'm here lol I'd like to learn how to explain my beliefs better, and maybe even come to some conclusions wherein my thinking and beliefs have been inaccurate. We don't proselyte for a couple reasons. Firstly, we believe its a function of the Church, which Church we support and believe in. Our purpose for the most part is to keep things alive like polygamy and full consecration, which things are much higher doctrines. In other words, proselyting should be done through the fundamentals of the gospel, like Joseph Smith and his vision, Faith, Family, Jesus Christ, the Church, and those things. I suppose we "could" proselyte, but we'd only teach the things that the Church already teaches, then tell them not to join our group, but to join the Church...which would be pretty confusing lol. The AUB group isn't so much a religious faith as it is a body of people with an objective within the body of Mormonism as a whole. Again, the matter gets down into how we believe the Church, Priesthood, and Kingdom of God are separate organizations. We aren't the Church, and we admit to being apostates of the Church. But we do believe we have proper Priesthood and we function through the Priesthood, not the Church.

Interesting, thanks.

 

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34 minutes ago, Josh516 said:

Forgive me, perhaps I'm incorrect, but I was under the impression that the purpose of this site was to discuss controversial issues and have ongoing dialogues about them? In other words, isn't this site meant as a platform for Apologetics?

It is, it is why I welcomed you, and why I asked questions to foster discussion. Also it is about "Apologetics", about the doctrine of the LDS Church based in SLC, and her doctrines and beliefs. I mean I welcome you here, and look forward to your threads and arguments. So again welcome. 

Edited by Bill "Papa" Lee
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15 minutes ago, Josh516 said:

I briefly went over the article and I would say that's probably accurate. In a small religious faith like ours, we know when there's a new comer so people will kind of flock around to see that individuals for themselves and get a feel for who they are. Since we do try and protect ourselves legally and get along with the laws of the land, having some random person show up that admitted they didn't even so much as believe in the Book of Mormon would be confusing to say the least, and very suspicious to say the most. We've had numerous undercover investigators come just to find something to tear us down in the media with. It's very difficult fighting with how we're viewed when we have people like Warren Jeffs tainting the rest of us. 

And yes, I do have more than one wife. Though my intention is not to argue that point here, unless it comes up in a round-a-bout matter. My main purpose for being here is simply to learn how to better express my thoughts, argue effectively, learn more about Mormon Apologetics, and make some good friends in the process :) 

I enjoy your being on the board Josh, love the diversity here! :)

BTW, my niece on my husband's side married a man who belonged to a polygamist group in Utah but left and joined the LDS church, then served a mission right after, he must have been around 19. He told me that in the early years of the FLDS it was great and they had wonderful childhoods, he may have even been part of your church, and just visited extended family at Short Creek.

And I agree, Warren Jeffs leadership of the FLDS does taint your religion as well as the LDS church. After reading a book, I posted about it in another thread, it made me angry, once again, at Joseph Smith for even introducing polygamy, his way of living it caused my faith issues with the church. The book is called: "Destroying Their God: How I Fought My Evil Half-Brother to Save My Children" https://www.amazon.com/Destroying-Their-God-Half-Brother-Children/dp/0999347217#customerReviews  It is a huge warning to everyone not to let someone come between your family in the name of God.

 But if people want to live polygamy that's fine, it's just when abuse happens because of it, that I get the angriest. When I watch "Sister Wives", I always feel like that would be wonderful to have all those siblings! I love how they focus on the family and get togethers, although there were problems too like in every family, not abusive ones that I can see. I think Kody was amazing when trying to make sure his family were happy. 

 

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Thanks again to everyone for the kindness. I'm aware that most polygamist situations end badly. It's very rare for families to function well in this type of lifestyle. All I can say is that I personally grew up with a good example of living plural marriage and I had a wonderful childhood with three moms. And my life now is wonderful as well. Its hard for sure, but I love that we all live together and work together. And I love the challenge of trying to be there emotionally for lots of family members while having to financially provide for them. It keeps me busy and stretches me to limits that most of the world simply won't be able to grasp. But its true that most of these marriages fail. In the words of Brigham Young, "It will damn more people than it will save." (unsure of citation).

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4 hours ago, Josh516 said:

Don't be sorry...it's half the reason I'm here lol I'd like to learn how to explain my beliefs better, and maybe even come to some conclusions wherein my thinking and beliefs have been inaccurate. We don't proselyte for a couple reasons. Firstly, we believe its a function of the Church, which Church we support and believe in. Our purpose for the most part is to keep things alive like polygamy and full consecration, which things are much higher doctrines. In other words, proselyting should be done through the fundamentals of the gospel, like Joseph Smith and his vision, Faith, Family, Jesus Christ, the Church, and those things. I suppose we "could" proselyte, but we'd only teach the things that the Church already teaches, then tell them not to join our group, but to join the Church...which would be pretty confusing lol. The AUB group isn't so much a religious faith as it is a body of people with an objective within the body of Mormonism as a whole. Again, the matter gets down into how we believe the Church, Priesthood, and Kingdom of God are separate organizations. We aren't the Church, and we admit to being apostates of the Church. But we do believe we have proper Priesthood and we function through the Priesthood, not the Church.

So you leave all the hard stuff to us? Seems convenient. ;) 

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4 hours ago, Josh516 said:

The AUB group isn't so much a religious faith as it is a body of people with an objective within the body of Mormonism as a whole. Again, the matter gets down into how we believe the Church, Priesthood, and Kingdom of God are separate organizations. We aren't the Church, and we admit to being apostates of the Church. But we do believe we have proper Priesthood and we function through the Priesthood, not the Church.

You confused me here.  Care to elaborate?

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37 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You confused me here.  Care to elaborate?

Am I making sense under the pretense that the Church, Priesthood, and Kingdom of God are separate organizations? Or are you just confused about my communication in general?

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19 minutes ago, Josh516 said:

lol well it's a relative opinion; not an absolute. So I guess it's not something that can be argued through logic or theory. It's all empirical argumentation. 

Probably true. Just given the choice I would have skipped my Mission and it is still probably the hardest thing I ever did so it is hard to see that as a form of lesser law.

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2 hours ago, Josh516 said:

Is what I'm saying confusing? Or is it the concept that doesn't make sense? In other words, are you wondering what I'm saying? Or are you wondering how that could possibly be true under my belief system?

All of the above.  I'm just very lost at what you believe here.

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46 minutes ago, Josh516 said:

Understandable :) Though it could be argued with evidence that polygamy and consecration are higher laws. But whether one or the other is more difficult would be a matter of opinion and experience.

I would argue that it is impossible to divorce things like missionary service from consecration. It was the time I lived it most fully. I am not exempt from living it now of course but I have to figure out how to do that mostly on my own. I would call consecration the highest law outside of possibly marriage but I am not sure on that.

As to polygamy, I have a hard time seeing it as a higher law then any other. I accept it is a real law that has gone out of force currently in mortality but it was practiced correctly and may at some future date be reinstated and I believe those sealings done in polygamous marriages are in force. I would not be here without it. My g-g-grandfather had two wives.

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10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would argue that it is impossible to divorce things like missionary service from consecration. It was the time I lived it most fully. I am not exempt from living it now of course but I have to figure out how to do that mostly on my own. I would call consecration the highest law outside of possibly marriage but I am not sure on that.

As to polygamy, I have a hard time seeing it as a higher law then any other. I accept it is a real law that has gone out of force currently in mortality but it was practiced correctly and may at some future date be reinstated and I believe those sealings done in polygamous marriages are in force. I would not be here without it. My g-g-grandfather had two wives.

Well to the fundamental LDS they believe in the words of BY and JS. I wonder if they must not believe that their current prophet trumps the one before, meaning keeping with current revelations.

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13 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

All of the above.  I'm just very lost at what you believe here.

At the risk of putting words in Josh's mouth, the Wikipedia article on his group might be of some value. However, since I happen to know that some Wikipedia editors have it in for anything connected with things they don't like, e.g. Mormonism and its works, the article may be not entirely reliable. Does the AUB have a website with more or better information @Josh516 ?

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