Jump to content
changed

Stiff-Neck vs Steadfast and Immovable

Recommended Posts

Many who are trying to be "Steadfast and Immovable" come off as having a "stiff-neck".  

In your opinion, what is the difference between someone with a "stiff-neck" and someone who is "Steadfast and Immovable"?  

stubborn and un-teachable vs. strong and loyal?

 

Stiff-neck:

speak not with a stiff neck Psalms 75:5

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray 2 Nephi 28:14

ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads Jacob 2:13

made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction Jeremiah 17:23

 

Steadfast and Immovable:

O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable 1 Nephi 2:10

they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them Alma 1:25

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Great question!

Loyalty involve humility- bowing and acknowledging your own limitations and accepting guidance to better perform.

Stiff-necked is prideful-- refusing to listen and unyielding to guidance to better perform.

 

A person is steadfast to principles.  A person is stubborn about habits and old ways of doing things.  

 

I think I will have to think of this more. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
37 minutes ago, changed said:

Many who are trying to be "Steadfast and Immovable" come off as having a "stiff-neck".  

In your opinion, what is the difference between someone with a "stiff-neck" and someone who is "Steadfast and Immovable"?  

stubborn and un-teachable vs. strong and loyal?

 

Stiff-neck:

speak not with a stiff neck Psalms 75:5

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray 2 Nephi 28:14

ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads Jacob 2:13

made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction Jeremiah 17:23

 

Steadfast and Immovable:

O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable 1 Nephi 2:10

they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them Alma 1:25

I would say a "stiff neck" prevents placement of and responsiveness to the yoke and that "steadfast" and being "Immovable" signifies coordination with the placement and direction of the yoke under the hand of the Master.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
41 minutes ago, changed said:

Many who are trying to be "Steadfast and Immovable" come off as having a "stiff-neck".  

In your opinion, what is the difference between someone with a "stiff-neck" and someone who is "Steadfast and Immovable"?  

I think the distinction lies in the individual's posture towards God.  

  • Consistently willing to listed to God and keep His commandments = "Steadfast and immovable."
  • Not willing to listen to God or keep His commandments = "Stiff-necked."

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the distinction lies in the individual's posture towards God.  

  • Consistently willing to listed to God and keep His commandments = "Steadfast and immovable."
  • Not willing to listen to God or keep His commandments = "Stiff-necked."

Thanks,

-Smac

Being able to recognize God and his messengers is key, too.

Remember that Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son by God. It was an angel who stopped him.

Imagine if Abraham was so obedient to God, that he refused to listen to the angel, and killed Isaac anyways.  We might call him “stiffnecked,” while he would have thought he was being “steadfast.”

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Being able to recognize God and his messengers is key, too.

Agreed.  But I think the terms under discussion ("Steadfast and immovable" and "stiff-necked") more or less presuppose that ability.

9 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Remember that Abraham was commanded to sacrifice his son by God. It was an angel who stopped him.

Imagine if Abraham was so obedient to God, that he refused to listen to the angel, and killed Isaac anyways.  We might call him “stiffnecked,” while he would have thought he was being “steadfast.”

Hmm.  I hadn't thought of it that way.

Thanks,

-Smac

Share this post


Link to post
27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think the distinction lies in the individual's posture towards God.  

 

For those who do not "know" G-d... (which is all of us in this life) it is needful to experiment on others words - experimentation involves a bit of being blown around / tossed by the sea a bit ...

Guess I don't know where to put my anchor down at this point.

Share this post


Link to post

I think of a stiff-necked person as one whose head and mind are set in one direction that they want to go and because their necks are stiff they can't or are not willing to turn their heads towards God and follow Him instead.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

From someone getting older...if you are steadfast and immovable...you are going to have a stiff neck.😋

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think of a stiff-necked person as one whose head and mind are set in one direction that they want to go and because their necks are stiff they can't or are not willing to turn their heads towards God and follow Him instead.

 

I've thought something similar. Someone who is stiff necked won't bow their head to pray.

Share this post


Link to post

Steadfast and immovable = faith

Stiff necked = pride

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, changed said:

For those who do not "know" G-d... (which is all of us in this life) it is needful to experiment on others words - experimentation involves a bit of being blown around / tossed by the sea a bit ...

Guess I don't know where to put my anchor down at this point.

Moroni 10:3-7 speaks to using a hypothesis (verse 6 is Alma 32 in a nutshell), which I think allows for a more well-grounded experiment than taking a “what-if” approach. A hypothesis offers a better sense of where to locate a place to anchor rather than taking a less considered or formulated trial-and-error approach.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Steadfast and immovable = faith

Stiff necked = pride

This is where my thinking is as well.

Share this post


Link to post

One is a dynamic refusal to budge by facing opposition. The other is arthritis.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, changed said:

Many who are trying to be "Steadfast and Immovable" come off as having a "stiff-neck".  

In your opinion, what is the difference between someone with a "stiff-neck" and someone who is "Steadfast and Immovable"?  

stubborn and un-teachable vs. strong and loyal?

 

Stiff-neck:

speak not with a stiff neck Psalms 75:5

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray 2 Nephi 28:14

ye are lifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads Jacob 2:13

made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction Jeremiah 17:23

 

Steadfast and Immovable:

O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable 1 Nephi 2:10

they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them Alma 1:25

I regard a stiff neck as one that will not allow the head to bow in humility or reverence to Deity. One should in humility seek to know the will of God and, having ascertained it, remain steadfast and immovable therein. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Steadfast and immovable = faith

Stiff necked = pride

Tossed by waves = fear

 

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

Moroni 10:3-7 speaks to using a hypothesis (verse 6 is Alma 32 in a nutshell), which I think allows for a more well-grounded experiment than taking a “what-if” approach. A hypothesis offers a better sense of where to locate a place to anchor rather than taking a less considered or formulated trial-and-error approach.

how merciful the Lord has been unto the children?  I do not see this mercy - I see 65 million refugees, I see 15,000 children who die each day from hunger, I see the commercial sexual exploitation of children, children who are denied education, ... ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true... if ye shall look with your own eyes ye will see the truth of it... the same today and tomorrow, the world has always been full of suffering.  ... to one is given starvation, to another abuse, to another war, to another disease, to another ignorance, to another floods and fire and earthquakes... even as long as the world has stood.  ... despair cometh because of the laws of nature, despair cometh because there is no justice, because there is no balm, there is no refuge for most victims.  

I have no faith - cannot force myself to have faith - as much as I would love to see a rosy picture and ignore all the suffering in the world that does not refine - it would not be honest to pretend all is well in the world... 

how do you force yourself to have faith?  just ignore the reality of the world?  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post

Stiffnecked is a farmer metaphor, having to do with a draft animal's unwillingness to respond to the driver's whip or prod to keep the plow in the intended furrow.  It would also, as I understand it, apply to a horse that wants to head to water or back to the barn rather than where the rider directs.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/stiff-necked/

http://www.chaimbentorah.com/2013/01/word-study-stiff-necked-kasha-oreph/

USU "Knows Livestock a Little" 78

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, changed said:

Tossed by waves = fear

 

how merciful the Lord has been unto the children?  I do not see this mercy - I see 65 million refugees, I see 15,000 children who die each day from hunger, I see the commercial sexual exploitation of children, children who are denied education, ... ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true... if ye shall look with your own eyes ye will see the truth of it... the same today and tomorrow, the world has always been full of suffering.  ... to one is given starvation, to another abuse, to another war, to another disease, to another ignorance, to another floods and fire and earthquakes... even as long as the world has stood.  ... despair cometh because of the laws of nature, despair cometh because there is no justice, because there is no balm, there is no refuge for most victims.  

I have no faith - cannot force myself to have faith - as much as I would love to see a rosy picture and ignore all the suffering in the world that does not refine - it would not be honest to pretend all is well in the world... 

how do you force yourself to have faith?  just ignore the reality of the world?  

 

 

Changed, after reading several of your posts, you've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, so to speak. In your case, maybe replace "faith" with "hope". That's what I'm doing at present. I'm so sorry your family has had to face having a child abused by the PH holder and leaders that stood by. :( I don't trust many in authoritative positions. They should have zero hold on anyone.

Edited by Tacenda

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, changed said:

Tossed by waves = fear

how merciful the Lord has been unto the children?  I do not see this mercy - I see 65 million refugees, I see 15,000 children who die each day from hunger, I see the commercial sexual exploitation of children, children who are denied education, ... ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true... if ye shall look with your own eyes ye will see the truth of it... the same today and tomorrow, the world has always been full of suffering.  ... to one is given starvation, to another abuse, to another war, to another disease, to another ignorance, to another floods and fire and earthquakes... even as long as the world has stood.  ... despair cometh because of the laws of nature, despair cometh because there is no justice, because there is no balm, there is no refuge for most victims.  

I have no faith - cannot force myself to have faith - as much as I would love to see a rosy picture and ignore all the suffering in the world that does not refine - it would not be honest to pretend all is well in the world... 

how do you force yourself to have faith?  just ignore the reality of the world? 

The tragedies and injustices you listed (and there are more) do not come from the Lord, nor does all that suffering negate the mercy which does come from Him. This is the message of the Gospel, which we can apply in our own circumstance and daily experience. Whatever moment of joy or comfort you have ever felt came to you, despite the darkness, came by the power of Christ’s atonement. That is a point from which to remember and exercise a particle of faith and allow it to expand to find the light, however small a ray, that shines in darkness. It can also be wounded and crushed, but that does not mean it was never there nor that salvation and restoration will never come, and these are both evidences of His mercy.

Share this post


Link to post
18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Steadfast and immovable = faith

Stiff necked = pride

On the one hand, I agree with the assessment.  The problem arises when one is asked to discern this in him or herself.  Rarely do people have the humility necessary to admit when they are prideful.  In most religious instances I have seen of people unwilling to change, they claim they are being steadfast, and full of faith.  Rarely does someone see in his or herself that he/she is "stiff necked" and proud.

Example: I was speaking to a couple who disagreed with each other on the position of homosexual practice and it's church acceptance.  The husband noted that he disagreed with the church's position, but wouldn't make a fuss of it, and hoped it would change.  The wife claimed that she vehemently agreed with the church's position, and would leave the church if they ever let gays marry.

Is the wife's position more faithful, or more prideful?

I submit that her 'steadfastness' and 'immovable faith' was well-intentioned obedience, but misplaced faith.

Share this post


Link to post

 

6 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Example: I was speaking to a couple who disagreed with each other on the position of homosexual practice and it's church acceptance.  The husband noted that he disagreed with the church's position, but wouldn't make a fuss of it, and hoped it would change.  The wife claimed that she vehemently agreed with the church's position, and would leave the church if they ever let gays marry.

Is the wife's position more faithful, or more prideful?

Evidence that attitude and actions both play a role?

Her actions can be more faithful/steadfast while her attitude is more prideful/stiff necked.

Whereas her husband's actions and attitude represent a lack of either.  A lukewarmness that the Lord has decried.

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, CV75 said:

The tragedies and injustices you listed (and there are more) do not come from the Lord, nor does all that suffering negate the mercy which does come from Him. This is the message of the Gospel, which we can apply in our own circumstance and daily experience. Whatever moment of joy or comfort you have ever felt came to you, despite the darkness, came by the power of Christ’s atonement. That is a point from which to remember and exercise a particle of faith and allow it to expand to find the light, however small a ray, that shines in darkness. It can also be wounded and crushed, but that does not mean it was never there nor that salvation and restoration will never come, and these are both evidences of His mercy.

 

 

omission vs. commission  

there is quite a lot of omission in this world... it seems Christianity was created for sinners rather than victims.  Jesus saves sinners, saves abusers and convicts have peace and hope through the Savior - not sure that it works out so well for victims though.  Yes, Christ is supposed to have felt our pain, but what is the point of the pain for innocent children - do little children need to be refined?  does abuse refine children?  that is the Christian answer - "no pain no gain, refined in the fire - so... does abuse refine children?  sorry, I'm not seeing how it works out for victims.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Changed, after reading several of your posts, you've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly, so to speak. In your case, maybe replace "faith" with "hope". That's what I'm doing at present. I'm so sorry your family has had to face having a child abused by the PH holder and leaders that stood by. :( I don't trust many in authoritative positions. They should have zero hold on anyone.

 

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

- Tao Te Ching, Ch Thirteen

 

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

- Tao Te Ching, Ch Thirteen

 

c/p'd, love it! Never thought of it that way, how true. 

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, changed said:

 

omission vs. commission  

there is quite a lot of omission in this world... it seems Christianity was created for sinners rather than victims.  Jesus saves sinners, saves abusers and convicts have peace and hope through the Savior - not sure that it works out so well for victims though.  Yes, Christ is supposed to have felt our pain, but what is the point of the pain for innocent children - do little children need to be refined?  does abuse refine children?  that is the Christian answer - "no pain no gain, refined in the fire - so... does abuse refine children?  sorry, I'm not seeing how it works out for victims.

It may seem that way, but victims too (“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction [the victims], and to keep himself [the sinners] unspotted from the world.”); the Gospel is for the vilest sinners and the most innocent of victims and everyone in between.

Sinners must repent (that is how it works for them), and victims must forgive (that is how it works for them), and both sinner and victim must choose to do so. The atonement of Christ makes the seemingly impossible possible, even if it isn’t within our immediate view.

Focusing on the most horrible thing imaginable that could happen to a child for a moment, and assuming he lives to perpetuate these crimes upon other innocents irrespective of his level of accountability, the Lord will work with him (perhaps not in this life) so that he can in time choose to be converted and healed (3 Nephi 9:13) and at the same time the Lord will bless him and pray for him (3 Nephi 17:21). Each of us is like this child to some extent, and I believe the Lord views each of us this way.

“If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” (1 Corinthians 15:19).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×