carbon dioxide Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Abulafia said: 6. Accept that prophets of any gender could come from outside the institutional hierarchy. Technically speak, all members are called to be prophets as a prophet is anyone that speaks by the Holy Ghost. God however has order and that extends to prophets. There is one prophet over the whole church and the other apostles who are prophets work to sustain him. No lower level prophet has a right to impose their views on everyone else. Sam Young has no more authority than I do at attempting to impose our personal views on the Church at large. He can have an opinion as I can have an opinion but its the sin of pride that suggest that he has the right to demand the Church conform to his view of things. Sam Young and Kate Kelly share this same quality. They have their views and if they had the power would force their views on everyone else even if the majority don't agree. Edited September 15, 2018 by carbon dioxide 1 Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 8 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: If the Lord considers that some sexual sins to be next to murder, what is there to examine? There is no need to introduce issues to kids that they do not understand or are even interested in. So what is a "very young child" in this context? I don't think any kids in primary (which I thing qualify as very young children) are being told that at all. It is not an issue I talk about with my 8 year old son. He is not into girls right now and there is no reason for me at this point to bring it up. Well. It's a leadership lottery isn't it. These men aren't trained to speak to children (under 18) about delicate sexual issues. Mistakes have and are still being made that are not best practice imho. Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Abulafia said: Well. It's a leadership lottery isn't it. These men aren't trained to speak to children (under 18) about delicate sexual issues. Mistakes have and are still being made that are not best practice imho. I would not consider a 16 year old to be young children. I see nothing wrong with asking very general questions on chastity issues. The kids know what the issue is about. They are exposed to far worse in school and on their phones than what a bishop my talk about. There is no need to get into details and one can determine if they are having problems without getting into specifics. Where problems may arise is if a bishop goes to far and asks for too much detail and a bishop should not do this even with adults in my opinion. Confession is about confessing the sin while not getting into the details. 2 Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Well is the Bishop any bishop, free of sexual sin? Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Technically speak, all members are called to be prophets as a prophet is anyone that speaks by the Holy Ghost. God however has order and that extends to prophets. There is one prophet over the whole church and the other apostles who are prophets work to sustain him. No lower level prophet has a right to impose their views on everyone else. Sam Young has no more authority than I do at attempting to impose our personal views on the Church at large. He can have an opinion as I can have an opinion but its the sin of pride that suggest that he has the right to demand the Church conform to his view of things. Sam Young and Kate Kelly share this same quality. They have their views and if they had the power would force their views on everyone else even if the majority don't agree. But that's not the way prophets and prophetesses operated in Judaism or the early Christian communities. See Geza Vermes book Christian Beginnings on this. https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Christian_Beginnings.html?id=SxY57WszsSAC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y 1 Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 (edited) "Confession is about confessing the sin while not getting into the details" See my point number 3. 3. Examine the history of private confession with a priest within Judaism and the Earliest Christian Communities. The results will and should surprise you. This is important because you claim to be the restored original Community of Jesus." Judges in Israel, fwiw, were not the same as Mormon Bishop's. They would be more similar to a courtroom Judge, and again, that judge could be female (Deborah). They judged on legal matters. Edited September 15, 2018 by Abulafia 1 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 39 minutes ago, Abulafia said: But that's not the way prophets and prophetesses operated in Judaism or the early Christian communities. See Geza Vermes book Christian Beginnings on this. https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Christian_Beginnings.html?id=SxY57WszsSAC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y Welcome to the dispensation of the fullness of times 1 Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 35 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Welcome to the dispensation of the fullness of times In a way, you have a point. One can argue for the way the modern Mormon Church is organised based on modern revelation, but one cannot use the earliest Christian communities or what's recorded in the gospels as precedent when it pertains to Jesus's teachings (or indeed silence) on a whole shed load of issues. 1 Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 40 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Welcome to the dispensation of the fullness of times Perhaps the church should remove *restoration * from it's teachings 1 Link to comment
Gray Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Technically speak, all members are called to be prophets as a prophet is anyone that speaks by the Holy Ghost. God however has order and that extends to prophets. There is one prophet over the whole church and the other apostles who are prophets work to sustain him. No lower level prophet has a right to impose their views on everyone else. Sam Young has no more authority than I do at attempting to impose our personal views on the Church at large. He can have an opinion as I can have an opinion but its the sin of pride that suggest that he has the right to demand the Church conform to his view of things. Sam Young and Kate Kelly share this same quality. They have their views and if they had the power would force their views on everyone else even if the majority don't agree. In the Old Testament tradition, prophets weren't necessarily leaders of any kind. They were often just a person who felt called to preach a message from the Lord - often at odds with Hebraic hierarchy. Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Gray said: In the Old Testament tradition, prophets weren't necessarily leaders of any kind. They were often just a person who felt called to preach a message from the Lord - often at odds with Hebraic hierarchy. Exactly. And in Hebrew Writings and the gospels, prophets could be women. Anna comes immediately to mind. [Luke 2] Luke in places seems far more amenable to the strong role of women. 2 Link to comment
provoman Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 I wonder if Deseret news should take the wind out of the sail, and publish the DC decision Sunday morning. Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Abulafia said: Exactly. And in Hebrew Writings and the gospels, prophets could be women. Anna comes immediately to mind. [Luke 2] Luke in places seems far more amenable to the strong role of women. Yes. A prophet can be a man or a woman who speaks by the Holy Ghost. However just as an Indian tribe has one chief, one can't have 50,000 people trying to lead the Church. There is no priesthood office in the LDS of "prophet" There is an office of "apostle". Link to comment
Calm Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, provoman said: I wonder if Deseret news should take the wind out of the sail, and publish the DC decision Sunday morning. That would be emotionally satisfying, but probably inappropriate. 2 Link to comment
provoman Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Calm said: That would be emotionally satisfying, but probably inappropriate. Well, I guess the precedent is wait until the person makes the decision is made public and then misrepresents the decision. Edited September 16, 2018 by provoman Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Yes. A prophet can be a man or a woman who speaks by the Holy Ghost. However just as an Indian tribe has one chief, one can't have 50,000 people trying to lead the Church. There is no priesthood office in the LDS of "prophet" There is an office of "apostle". I thought the governing leadership are specifically called as prophets, seers and revelators? http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prophet,_Seer,_and_Revelator That's fine, but that's not how prophets functioned in ancient Judaism or in the early Christian communities. Prophesy was a charismatic gift. Anyone could have that gift. The ruling leaders of the Jews in the time of Jesus, didn't appear to like his attempts to reprioritise when the system appeared corrupted. Prophets offered a *checks and balances* system on institutional authority. Where are the checks and balances within the LDS system of leadership and governance? 1 Link to comment
Gray Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Abulafia said: Exactly. And in Hebrew Writings and the gospels, prophets could be women. Anna comes immediately to mind. [Luke 2] Luke in places seems far more amenable to the strong role of women. Yes indeed. It's a sad commentary that in most of the Bible (barring late pseudo-Pauline writings that advocate for the norms of Roman society, which were quite anti-woman) women have a stronger role in their religious community than they do in the LDS Church today. Edited September 16, 2018 by Gray Link to comment
Abulafia Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 16 minutes ago, Gray said: Yes indeed. It's a sad commentary that in most of the Bible (barring late pseudo-Pauline writings that advocate for the norms of Roman society, which were quite anti-woman) women have a stronger role in their religious community than they do in the LDS Church today. So darn true. I spent a year on a Master's Dissertation tackling this very issue. 1 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 16 hours ago, Abulafia said: Perhaps the church should remove *restoration * from it's teachings Then you don’t understand what the restoration means 1 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 16 hours ago, Gray said: In the Old Testament tradition, prophets weren't necessarily leaders of any kind. They were often just a person who felt called to preach a message from the Lord - often at odds with Hebraic hierarchy. The Old Testament didn’t have a duly organized and and constituted Church. We do have many examples of a hierarchy. Elijah was clearly seen as the leader of the prophets during his time, for example. Elisha succeeded him Link to comment
JAHS Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, provoman said: I wonder if Deseret news should take the wind out of the sail, and publish the DC decision Sunday morning. According to the Facebook page: WHAT: News Conference--I will publicly open the Verdict from the Excommunication Tribunal WHEN: Sunday, (tomorrow), Sept 16, 2018, 12 Noon WHERE: Salt Lake City, South Temple Street, across from Temple Square Excommunication Tribunal? I thought they were called disciplinary councils. Edited September 16, 2018 by JAHS Link to comment
Tacenda Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 Sam Young just read the letter from the church, he's out and ex'd. Probably not a smart move on behalf of the church as far as PR is concerned. Link to comment
Calm Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Sam Young just read the letter from the church, he's out and ex'd. Probably not a smart move on behalf of the church as far as PR is concerned. Kelly more or less dropped off the map shortly after her exing, Dehlin is much less quoted by media and is certainly less The Story after his excommunication. I think you misjudge the media attention level to a dissenting member vs. a critical former member. Edited September 16, 2018 by Calm 4 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 (edited) 22 hours ago, Abulafia said: Perhaps the church should remove *restoration * from it's teachings The notion that the Bible is a complete record of all things Jesus said and did in His mortal ministry or as God of the Old Testament is your unBiblical supposition, not ours, and not that of the restored gospel of Christ. Edited September 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 16, 2018 Share Posted September 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Sam Young just read the letter from the church, he's out and ex'd. Probably not a smart move on behalf of the church as far as PR is concerned. In the Church of Jesus Christ, if there is ever a conflict between doing what’s right and doing good “PR”, the former will prevail in each and every instance. 3 Link to comment
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