Former Bishop Hunger Strike for Youth Interview Policy Change

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Judd said:

Looks like he has his letter butnis delaying reading it until a press conference Sunday in SLC. 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/09/14/sam-young-has-letter

So much for “oh my gosh it’s important he knows immediately!”

Quote

Sam Young has decided to let the world know at the same time he does whether he is being excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The former bishop — who has been campaigning to get the Utah-based faith to end one-on-one interviews between Mormon clergy and youths, sessions that sometimes include sexually explicit questions — has scheduled a news conference for noon Sunday in Salt Lake City at which he will open a letter delivered this week from church leaders explaining the faith’s verdict on his membership.

So he is using it for publicity.  

Why am I not surprised.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 I've seen bishops not follow policy sometimes, when they felt it was better not to, and I've never seen that described as unrighteous dominion.  

Also, if i'm understanding right, Sam Young isn't pointing out a flaw in the accusation, he's pointing out a flaw in the timing of the accusation.  It sounds like he thinks the accusation should have come earlier.  From my perspective though, what does it matter? If Sam Young did encourage others to oppose church leaders (which I think I remember him doing), then there are two possible outcomes after church leaders have accused him of such:  He repents or he doesn't.  Those outcomes are the same regardless of the timing of the accusations.  

If he's going to repent, then he can do that at the disciplinary council just as easily as he could have a few weeks ago.  And if he repents then there would be no disciplinary action on that charge (if i'm understanding correctly).  If he's not going to repent, then he can not repent at the disciplinary council just as easily as he could not repent a few weeks ago.  And if he stands his ground on his justifications for doing no repenting, then whether he stood his ground a few weeks ago or at the council, the result is the same.

From what I've seen in the past, it really isn't an uphill battle at all for those who are willing to follow the council of the Stake President and stop doing what the church says that they can't be doing and still be a member.  I agree though that it very much is an uphill battle to try to maintain church membership while doing stuff that the church says you can't do and still be a member.   That doesn't mean the deck is stacked though. 

I agree that is a procedural claim that Sam made on this, similar to asking a judge to dismiss a charge before they even get to trial. That doesn't mean he confesses to the accusation, only that he views the accusation as inappropriate. But yes, timing does matter. The handbook defines apostasy as repeatedly doing or teaching something even after having been corrected. If he had never been corrected before, how could he be in apostasy. The SP skipped a VERY important step there, making the accusation inappropriate. The SP could counsel him now, and if he continued to do what he was counseled not to, he could be accused of apostasy, but he must first be corrected.

IIRC Sam Young told people to vote their conscience, and if that involved voting opposed, then they should do that. Voting opposed is one of the 2 options church members are given. I don't see why that would viewed as apostate. If he's told at the DC not to tell people that they can vote opposed, then they really can't judge him what he's already done, only on what he does in the future if he repeats it. How can he be judged for repeatedly doing something he hasn't repeatedly done? That's why he was disputing the charge. Why consider a charge of apostasy for something he hadn't yet been counseled not to do?

You're right, that if Sam Young simply does whatever his SP tells him to do, he might be ok. But that kind of obedience to a man out of fear for losing membership in the church and all the saving ordinances that accompany it place way too much emphasis on being obedient to a man.

Of course the deck is stacked. The SP is the accuser. He is the judge. He is the executioner. Why would he accuse if he hadn't already judged? Criticizing the accusation will fall on deaf ears if it can only be made to the man who made the accusation.

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

So he is using it for publicity.  

Why am I not surprised.

Why shouldn't he?

He was judged by the SP. Sam Young can share his story. It's his only recourse.

The SP and the church will be judged by public opinion. Seems fair. If they did the right thing they have nothing to worry about.

ETA: Out of curiosity, would his excommunication be "official" as of the date of the letter, the date the letter was sent, the date it was received, or the date it was opened and read? Right now he is both excommunicated and a member in good standing.

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[ksfisher]

Just now, Calm said:

Kate Kelly responded to her DC as if it was a legal proceeding as I remember.  Now Young seems to have done the same thing.  It seems, imo, to be a fundamental misunderstanding/misrepresentation on their purpose.

You're right.  A a disciplinary council has 3 main purposes (which I know you know Calm):

1) to save the souls of transgressors

2) to protect the innocent

3) to safeguard the integrity of the church

In order to save the souls of transgressors the proper course of action must be determined to help than person return to the path of discipleship.

In the case of an individual who has broken covenants made with God, who is unrepentant, it is both just and merciful to release that person from the obligations pertaining to those covenants.

In the case of individuals whose actions or teachings are harmful to the church or it's members, a course of action should be followed which helps members of the church understand that those actions or teaching are contrary to the will of God.

[Avatar4321]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

So he is using it for publicity.  

Why am I not surprised.

I keep thinking of Matthew 6

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why shouldn't he?

He was judged by the SP. Sam Young can share his story. It's his only recourse.

The SP and the church will be judged by public opinion. Seems fair. If they did the right thing they have nothing to worry about.

ETA: Out of curiosity, would his excommunication be "official" as of the date of the letter, the date the letter was sent, the date it was received, or the date it was opened and read? Right now he is both excommunicated and a member in good standing.

 

There is no reason he shouldn't save for my personal opinion he is turning his cause into a side show about himself with the dramatic flourishes.

Sharing the info is one thing, waiting to open it in the presence of press...juvenile drama.

add-on:  I get the need for drama to draw attention to causes, thus how celebrities can help charities by becoming spokespeople.  But when it becomes more about promoting the individual, the cause gets diluted, imo.  Instead of creating committed supporters, you have fans/drama watchers who lose interest when the celebrity moves on to another interest or dies.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Calm

[hope_for_things]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

What makes you think the stake president is afraid of anything?

I highly doubt that this Stake President is acting independently on this matter.  Everything is being orchestrated by SLC.  

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

So he is using it for publicity.  

Why am I not surprised.

No surprise at all, Sam has made it very clear that he wants as much publicity on this issue as possible.  He wants the church to end the practices and is seeking publicity to help bring pressure on the church to make a change.  

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

He was judged by the SP. Sam Young can share his story. It's his only recourse.

The proper recourse for one wishing to be a disciple of Christ is to set ones life in harmony with the gospel, not hold press conferences.

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The SP and the church will be judged by public opinion. Seems fair. If they did the right thing they have nothing to worry about.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that we will be judged by Christ and that our judges judge in the place of and by the authority of Christ.

"And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the Lord, who is with you in the judgment." (2 Chr 19:6)

 

10 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

ETA: Out of curiosity, would his excommunication be "official" as of the date of the letter, the date the letter was sent, the date it was received, or the date it was opened and read? Right now he is both excommunicated and a member in good standing.

 

Why would it matter? 

[ksfisher]

Just now, hope_for_things said:

Everything is being orchestrated by SLC. 

CFR please.

[hope_for_things]

Just now, ksfisher said:

CFR please.

My opinion based on my observations, I don't have access to any special evidence.  

[Jeanne]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You're right.  A a disciplinary council has 3 main purposes (which I know you know Calm):

1) to save the souls of transgressors

2) to protect the innocent

3) to safeguard the integrity of the church

In order to save the souls of transgressors the proper course of action must be determined to help than person return to the path of discipleship.

In the case of an individual who has broken covenants made with God, who is unrepentant, it is both just and merciful to release that person from the obligations pertaining to those covenants.

In the case of individuals whose actions or teachings are harmful to the church or it's members, a course of action should be followed which helps members of the church understand that those actions or teaching are contrary to the will of God.

Do you really think anybody in the COB cares about Sam's soul?    How about protecting the innocent...the win here is the integrity of the church and the safeguard of it.

[Avatar4321]

7 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I highly doubt that this Stake President is acting independently on this matter.  Everything is being orchestrated by SLC.  

Oh the conspiracy goes higher than SLC

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I keep thinking of Matthew 6

If you want to really understand Sam Young, it is probably more important to think of Matthew 18:6

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

I don't think Sam has cared about his membership for years.  I think he knew, from when he started the "vote opposed" movement that it could eventually lead to excommunication.

I don't agree with all his methods.  I don't agree with all of the harsh things he has said about the church and its leaders.  I don't agree with all of his blog posts.  But if you want to understand him, I think it's necessary to realize that he is all about bringing publicity to his cause in order to members and leaders of the church to do something about it.  He has partially succeeded, IMO.  In the short term, he will likely fail to meet his ultimate objectives.  But, the fact that he is going to open his letter in front of the press is no surprise.  Likewise, we can anticipate more publicity surrounding his appeal.

[Avatar4321]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Do you really think anybody in the COB cares about Sam's soul?    How about protecting the innocent...the win here is the integrity of the church and the safeguard of it.

I care about His soul 

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Do you really think anybody in the COB cares about Sam's soul?    How about protecting the innocent...the win here is the integrity of the church and the safeguard of it.

Well, I think many of them would say they care about Sam's soul.  Its just that they conflate Sam's standing in the church with his standing with God.  The two things are synonymous for the orthodox.  Allegiance to church authorities is the same thing as obedience to God for them.  

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said:

Oh the conspiracy goes higher than SLC

Or much lower, depending on your POV. 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Do you really think anybody in the COB cares about Sam's soul?    How about protecting the innocent...the win here is the integrity of the church and the safeguard of it.

So you don't think one person in the COB has compassion for him?  Out of dozens, if not hundreds who work there?

You don't think any there sincerely believe---even if you think they are wrong---that by fighting the Church in this way he is working against the Lord and therefore sinning and they worry the longer this goes on, the more he will have to suffer to turn his heart towards God again?

Is empathy only appropriate in your view for a limited group or should it be applied for everyone to the best of our ability?

Edited September 14, 2018 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is no reason he shouldn't save for my personal opinion he is turning his cause into a side show about himself with the dramatic flourishes.

Sharing the info is one thing, waiting to open it in the presence of press...juvenile drama.

add-on:  I get the need for drama to draw attention to causes, thus how celebrities can help charities by becoming spokespeople.  But when it becomes more about promoting the individual, the cause gets diluted, imo.  Instead of creating committed supporters, you have fans/drama watchers who lose interest when the celebrity moves on to another interest or dies.

I agree with the bolded part. When the person becomes the story more than the cause, there's a problem. I'm not sure that has happened in this case. The cause is still getting a lot of attention.

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Do you really think anybody in the COB cares about Sam's soul?    How about protecting the innocent...the win here is the integrity of the church and the safeguard of it.

I think they care about him in an abstract way. I think they believe they have his best interests in mind but that is secondary to protecting the good name of the church.

[hope_for_things]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree with the bolded part. When the person becomes the story more than the cause, there's a problem. I'm not sure that has happened in this case. The cause is still getting a lot of attention.

There are many causes in history that have been characterized by those against the cause as being more about the person than about the cause.  Looking back to MLK jr, or Malcolm X in the civil rights movement as one example.  We should also be concerned about critics using this as a tactic to try and discredit a cause.  

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

My opinion based on my observations, I don't have access to any special evidence.  

You said nothing about this being your opinion.  You made a statement of fact.

"Everything is being orchestrated by SLC."

That is a statement of fact.

 

[Avatar4321]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If you want to really understand Sam Young, it is probably more important to think of Matthew 18:6

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

I don't think Sam has cared about his membership for years.  I think he knew, from when he started the "vote opposed" movement that it could eventually lead to excommunication.

I don't agree with all his methods.  I don't agree with all of the harsh things he has said about the church and its leaders.  I don't agree with all of his blog posts.  But if you want to understand him, I think it's necessary to realize that he is all about bringing publicity to his cause in order to members and leaders of the church to do something about it.  He has partially succeeded, IMO.  In the short term, he will likely fail to meet his ultimate objectives.  But, the fact that he is going to open his letter in front of the press is no surprise.  Likewise, we can anticipate more publicity surrounding his appeal.

I’m going to humbly disagree with you. I don’t think that verse is that important to him

[cinepro]

33 minutes ago, Judd said:

Looks like he has his letter but is delaying reading it until a press conference Sunday in SLC. 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/09/14/sam-young-has-letter

I suppose such an important, even eternal, matter can wait until Sunday when the cameras are rolling.

What a great idea!  Hopefully these will turn into the ex-Mormon equivalent of mission calls openings, with friends and family gathered around the living room.

 

[smac97]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

If you want to really understand Sam Young, it is probably more important to think of Matthew 18:6

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

I don't believe Sam Young is motivated by a sincere, good faith concern for the welfare of LDS children.  I think he's on a massive ego trip, and "for the children!" rhetoric makes for a nice pretext.

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I don't think Sam has cared about his membership for years. 

Hmm.  So when he says in his letter to his stake president that "I value my church membership," he is lying?

I happen to agree with your assessment.  I don't think he values his membership, either.  I am just surprised that you reached the same conclusion.

Thanks,

-Smac