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Ammon Bundy, socialists in the church?


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2 hours ago, halconero said:

I’ve found many Americans, certainly not all, to have a skewed view on political leanings. Anything left of Republican is liberal-leftist-socialist, for some. This includes Bernie Sanders, who calls himself a Democratic Socialist, but whose platform is aligned more closely with Social Democracy. He calls Scandinavia a collection of socialist countries, when in reality they have highly free markets combined with strong redistributive elements (no, that’s not socialism).

Yep. Denmark in particular has been held up as a model by both conservatives and liberals because, in many ways, its economy is more free-market oriented than is the US economy, while its welfare system is far more generous than that of the US. Most of Western Europe is social democracy, which is not socialism. From Britannica.com:
 

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After World War II, social democratic parties came to power in several nations of western Europe—e.g., West Germany, Sweden, and Great Britain (in the Labour Party)—and laid the foundations for modern European social welfare programs. With its ascendancy, social democracy changed gradually, most notably in West Germany. These changes generally reflected a moderation of the 19th-century socialist doctrine of wholesale nationalization of business and industry. Although the principles of the various social democratic parties began to diverge somewhat, certain common fundamental principles emerged. In addition to abandoning violence and revolution as tools of social change, social democracy took a stand in opposition to totalitarianism. The Marxist view of democracy as a “bourgeois” facade for class rule was abandoned, and democracy was proclaimed essential for socialist ideals. Increasingly, social democracy adopted the goal of state regulation of business and industry as sufficient to further economic growth and equitable income.

By that definition, the US is also a social democracy, albeit one that is less stringent in regulating business and industry and less generous in its welfare provisions.

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Combine that with increasingly weird tendencies to align whole worldviews with the left-right political spectrum and you get a very weird view on politics as a whole.

That's probably because of our two-party system, which encourages binary thinking, even when the two parties agree, as well as entrenched ideas of a binary struggle between capitalist democracy and Communism during the Cold War.

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I hold many views which previously would have defined me as a conservative: free commerce, free movement, pro-NATO, putting a price on carbon (pro market demand side reform) rather than interventionist regulation (command economy supply side regimes), earned income tax credits, etc. These views make me a globalist, an environmentalist, and okay with some level of government social policy. Therefore according to many in the U.S. they make me a socialist.

It is strange, isn't it? I'm pretty conservative, but in the age of Trump, I'm labeled a globalist establishment closet leftist. Go figure.

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If that’s what Ammon Bundy calls a socialist, then sure, there’s socialists in the Church.

There was a man in my ward in Virginia who was viewed as the ward liberal. He used to beg me to come to priesthood meetings because I was the only person there who engaged what he thought rather than dismissing him as a Democrat and therefore irrational. Not saying I'm better than anyone, but there is definitely a tendency to be dismissive of people whose beliefs you disagree with. I have to be careful about not doing that with people who support Trump, though it's hard for me to take them seriously. 

Edited by jkwilliams
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3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't think that a lot of Americans even know the difference between Communism and socialism.  We learn all of this in school of course, but it doesn't seem like many cared enough to pay attention.

Many don’t even know the difference between liberalism and socialism sadly enough, let alone socialism and communism.

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3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Yep. Denmark in particular has been held up as a model by both conservatives and liberals because, in many ways, its economy is more free-market oriented than is the US economy, while its welfare system is far more generous than that of the US. Most of Western Europe is social democracy, which is not socialism. From Britannica.com:
 

By that definition, the US is also a social democracy, albeit one that is less stringent in regulating business and industry and less generous in its welfare provisions.

That's probably because of our two-party system, which encourages binary thinking, even when the two parties agree, as well as entrenched ideas of a binary struggle between capitalist democracy and Communism during the Cold War.

It is strange, isn't it? I'm pretty conservative, but in the age of Trump, I'm labeled a globalist establishment closet leftist. Go figure.

There was a man in my ward in Virginia who was viewed as the ward liberal. He used to beg me to come to priesthood meetings because I was the only person there who engaged what he thought rather than dismissing him as a Democrat and therefore irrational. Not saying I'm better than anyone, but there is definitely a tendency to be dismissive of people whose beliefs you disagree with. I have to be careful about not doing that with people who support Trump, though it's hard for me to take them seriously. 

Agreed on all points. We live in interesting times, as the Chinese would say.

I’m fortunate to live in Canada, where we have more variation and parties at the provincial and federal levels. Populist rhetoric is creeping into the CPC (and to a lesser extent the NDP) here, but not as much. Outside of Alberta Church affiliation isn’t so synonymous with party loyalty. Church members can be found among the Liberals, New Democrats, Conservatives, and Greens. I think it’s healthier for the Church to have a multipartisan membership.

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17 minutes ago, halconero said:

Agreed on all points. We live in interesting times, as the Chinese would say.

I’m fortunate to live in Canada, where we have more variation and parties at the provincial and federal levels. Populist rhetoric is creeping into the CPC (and to a lesser extent the NDP) here, but not as much. Outside of Alberta Church affiliation isn’t so synonymous with party loyalty. Church members can be found among the Liberals, New Democrats, Conservatives, and Greens. I think it’s healthier for the Church to have a multipartisan membership.

I had expected our ward in Virginia to be a little more diverse politically, as many of the ward members worked in government, and there were a lot of families from outside the US. But our high priests group was all white and all Republican, save the guy I mentioned. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 7/20/2018 at 1:19 PM, hope_for_things said:

Well, in the USA, LDS members are strongly Republican, according to this 2016 pew survey.  More Republican than any other religious group.

The political preferences of U.S. political groups

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/

Ok.

And 1 out of 5 are Dem's.

Either party doesn't bother me.

"None of them can change the times."

- Bob Marley

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On 7/24/2018 at 11:18 AM, halconero said:

Many don’t even know the difference between liberalism and socialism sadly enough, let alone socialism and communism.

As a libertarian, I've found that conservatives claim liberalism as their champion when, indeed, they are as much against freedom as liberals. 

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40 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Ok.

And 1 out of 5 are Dem's.

Either party doesn't bother me.

"None of them can change the times."

- Bob Marley

"Have no fear for atomic energy (Nuclearfuels)"

-Bob Marley

I think the line is actually "None of dem-a-can-a-stop-a-da-time". 

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Actually, the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints is a worldwide Church.  There will be socialists, even Communists in it.  I am generally conservative, but try to keep an open mind to truth wherever it may be found, and weed my garden accordingly.  I remember discussing a liberal president I didn't care for during a Church council meeting.  A brother, whom I profoundly respect, said "I voted for him."  He had two sons with hemophilia who contracted AIDS from the early contaminated blood supply.  It was during the early hysteria where they didn't let anyone know due to fear of judgment and unjustified reprisal.  They flew the boys from Washington State to the DC area twice per month for treatment.  One son died.  They still grieve for him.  But he and his family have a life that would have been much different without government assistance.  I don't participate in political characterizations in Church meetings anymore.  There are many good people of all persuasions in the Church.  God loves them all-- even Ammon Bundy.

Edited by Meerkat
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On 8/20/2018 at 1:34 PM, Bob Crockett said:

As a libertarian, I've found that conservatives claim liberalism as their champion when, indeed, they are as much against freedom as liberals. 

What does that even mean? Could you elaborate?

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On 8/21/2018 at 3:02 AM, Meerkat said:

Actually, the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints is a worldwide Church.  There will be socialists, even Communists in it.  I am generally conservative, but try to keep an open mind to truth wherever it may be found, and weed my garden accordingly.  I remember discussing a liberal president I didn't care for during a Church council meeting.  A brother, whom I profoundly respect, said "I voted for him."  He had two sons with hemophilia who contracted AIDS from the early contaminated blood supply.  It was during the early hysteria where they didn't let anyone know due to fear of judgment and unjustified reprisal.  They flew the boys from Washington State to the DC area twice per month for treatment.  One son died.  They still grieve for him.  But he and his family have a life that would have been much different without government assistance.  I don't participate in political characterizations in Church meetings anymore.  There are many good people of all persuasions in the Church.  God loves them all-- even Ammon Bundy.

There was a political thread here that got shut down years back. It described witnessing a prayer in a German ward where they prayed that God would inspire their leaders, and continue providing for a government that would care for the people.

Different countries, different attitudes. I suspect most of us who are politically minded will be surprised when we find out that the Kingdom of Heaven operates differently than our favourite ideology.

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On 8/25/2018 at 10:26 AM, halconero said:

What does that even mean? Could you elaborate?

Classic liberalism comes from the ideas of John Locke and Adam Smith.  A liberal approach to personal freedoms and economic markets leads to greater freedom.  Conservatives today like to latch on to the term, "liberalism" and it sounds like "liberal" to make the point that conservatives are the true liberals.

But the typical conservatives you would encounter as so far from libertarian concepts as a liberal.  The basic tenet of libertarianism is to admit that any compulsion is wrong.  Conservatives wage wars of aggression, imprison people for minor offenses, seek entrenched power in Washington.  

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Most people in the Democratic Party have drifted strongly to heavy government control of institutions and excessive interference in society.  That is opposite of Classical Liberalism.

The current administration relies greatly on the Heritage Foundation for recommendations and guidelines on Constitutional Rule of Law (not the arbitrary dictates of men or legislation from the bench).  This results in greater individual liberty and an astonishing increase in prosperity.

Political threads are closed when multiple posters promote an ideology. 

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