FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 8 minutes ago, Calm said: I have my doubts these days that it will come for everyone though in mortality given my own experience with medication and others' reports. I see it as possible that some brains just aren't wired to receive it so the individual will become conscious of the answer. I believe there is always communication between spirits, but that might not get translated to our mortal awareness (think of what our brains 'know' when we are asleep...I sometimes dream .I am a different person and therefore if by chance anyone was able to share the dream with me, I would not be able to tell them of my nondreamlife...until I woke up). Since .I believe our "probation" continues long after death---perhaps that is when we wake up---I don't see not knowing now as unfair even if it is painful. This was a nice read. Thanks. Link to comment
Popular Post FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 19, 2018 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: Ok, I can understand that. I'm sorry that you feel that you've never had any experience with God. I can imagine that that was a very difficult place to be, especially if you were testifying of things that you knew were true, that you didn't actually know. That would have to take a toll. It helped a lot to just stop doing it. 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: I think, judging from your other posts, that you might be making the common "if it didn't happen to me, then it can't happen to anyone else" mistake. Just like it's not logical or fair for me to try to argue that my experience proves your's is false, it's not going to go over very well if you try to argue that your experience proves other people's false. These are subjective experiences that are personal. No, I don’t doubt anyone else’s accounts. I think they’re lucky to have divine contact in their life, and I covet the hell out of it, assuming it’s real. I just haven’t had any contact, so all I have to show me the love that I’m told is being sent my way are strictly secondhand accounts. That’s not enough for me, even if someone else’s cup runneth over. 5 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted July 19, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 19, 2018 15 minutes ago, Calm said: Since .I believe our "probation" continues long after death---perhaps that is when we wake up---I don't see not knowing now as unfair even if it is painful. Yeah, the God I've come to know doesn't let anyone fall through the cracks, late or soon. 'The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance'. I'm learning that if He can play the long game with His children, we can be a bit more 'longsuffering' with each other as well. 6 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: All I have to show me the love that I’m told is being sent my way are strictly secondhand accounts. That’s not enough for me, even if someone else’s cup runneth over. Yeah, it wouldn't be enough for me, either. And it certainly wasn't enough for Joseph Smith: 'If I had not experienced what I have, I should not have believed it myself'. 2 Link to comment
bluebell Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: It helped a lot to just stop doing it. No, I don’t doubt anyone else’s accounts. I think they’re lucky to have divine contact in their life, and I covet the hell out of it, assuming it’s real. I just haven’t had any contact, so all I have to show me the love that I’m told is being sent my way are strictly secondhand accounts. That’s not enough for me, even if someone else’s cup runneth over. I get it and that makes sense. It was how you are describing other people's accounts in some of your posts that makes it sound like you are calling the validity of their experiences into question. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted July 19, 2018 5 hours ago, bluebell said: I get it and that makes sense. It was how you are describing other people's accounts in some of your posts that makes it sound like you are calling the validity of their experiences into question. I’m trying to smooth things out with the actual people toward whom I was apparently dismissive. If you’re one of them, thank you for sharing your insights and for being civil even if I wasn’t. 5 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: Good question. As far as various reconciliations of the problem, some are satisfied that the amount and means of personal contact with their god is sufficient to be able to call him their father. Either because they receive regular contact or because irregularities are seen as inevitable to account for the plan of salvation and/or slight on an eternal scale. Some agreed that there is indeed a problem here, and related their feelings. Of those, one is a pronounced deist, into which I’d like to look further. Another seems to be leaning toward deism as well. There were also some who came in to give me stern talking tos and question my integrity. And then there’s whatever this Mark character believes. I still can’t tell if he’s making some of it up, but the red phone checked out, so he may be getting my attention. I also may have left some off. I was spinning some conversational plates a bit, so it’s still a bit jumbled. Thanks for a straight-forward thoughtful reply. We may all be able to get somewhere with your question if you appear to take others seriously. That wasn’t so hard was it,. There’s hope for you yet. How would some form of deism solve your issue with God’s apparent poor parental abilities? Seems to me it just trading one set of questions for another. FYI, You won’t get away with much with Mark. Edited July 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 15 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I don’t think anyone would tell you revelation is weird at an LDS church. You may get looks at other churches, but Mormons are pretty openly on board with modern revelation, right? Thank you for getting that! You have no idea how many times critics show up on this board and insist that there's nothing stand-out about how the Saints view, expect and engage with the processes of revelation. In my experience, they couldn't be more wrong. It's one of the sweetest gifts of the Restoration! Though I hope that isn't rubbing salt in what, for you, is already an open wound ... 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 13 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I think I’ve lost the connection between all this and my question. But sure, there are things I believe that have nothing to do with empirical evidence. Sometimes, I just don’t want people harmed on my behalf. Not according to previous posts on either account Try for consistency. It helps credibility. Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Thanks for a straight-forward thoughtful reply. We may all be able to get somewhere with your question if you appear to take others seriously. That wasn’t so hard was it,. There’s hope for you yet. I couldn’t have done it without your tireless efforts. 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: How would some form of deism solve your issue with God’s apparent poor parental abilities? Seems to me it just trading one set of questions for another. I’m not saying they necessarily would. I’ve just never talked to real life deists, so I’m fascinated by that whole mess. I’m reading up a bit on it before I start asking these folks questions. 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: FYI, You won’t get away with much with Mark. I don’t think I’ve actually gotten away with anything in here. I don’t really want to, but yeah. On that note, I realize I came in a bit hot to a Mormon board, and, as a former missionary, etc. I should have been more sensitive to the fact that there is a history of persecution, open slander, and just plain nastiness against the LDS Church. So, while it wasn’t my intention to engage in that kind of malarkey, I understand the prickly welcome. 2 Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Not according to previous posts on either account At the risk of you just proving you know way more Wittgenstein than me, I’m going to answer your challenge here. Which of my beautiful posts was the one that made you think I only believe in things of which there is empirical evidence? 33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Try for consistency. It helps credibility. Save me the trouble of looking it up—is there even such thing as consistency or credibility in this positivism graveyard we call life? Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: Yeah, from my position, there does appear to be a value judgment here. I don’t think anyone would tell you revelation is weird at an LDS church. You may get looks at other churches, but Mormons are pretty openly on board with modern revelation, right? That sounds really really nice. For what it is worth I love Hamba's reply to you on this. That guy always hits it. He's out there in the Pacific somewhere meditating under a coconut tree or something. So let me clarify. If there are some things that you know are true like that you shouldn't hurt people, you know that through what we call revelation. If you know that you have had something revealed to you.!!! Anything you feel in your gut is revelation. Mormons call that the Light of Christ. Maybe that's what you're not getting. I know in my gut this is the right path for me. I say that in Mormonrse as " I know the church is true." With my education in post-modernism I have absolutely no trouble saying those words consistent with everything I believe philosophically, and I believe that no one else should have any problem with it either if they understand that philosophy. Those who don't understand that philosophy need to learn it. To me not knowing the latest developments in philosophy is like believing that people didn't land on the Moon, or that we don't have rockets etc capable of doing that. So if you love someone that's from your gut. If you forgive people that's from your gut. Anything's that disgusts you comes from your gut. Anything that makes you happy comes from your gut. Religion is not about weighing God or finding out how tall he is or other facts about him or how he works. Religion is about dedication to a cause higher than yourself and finding a lifestyle that is consistent with that view. I can't think of a higher cause than the Perfection of humanity and if you can combine that with an understanding of Jesus Christ to me that is the best of all possible worlds. We are free of guilt and pain and have no more objective then self Perfection and the Perfection of humanity, while also being fully aware of how evil the world really is. That is the parable of Eden. One must know both good and evil in order to perfect anything. Anyway I truly hope that helps. Anything you feel deep inside you and your gut is revelation. It doesn't have to agree with other folks either. The path God wants for you is not the same path other folks need. We are all Unique Individuals and God takes us where we are and leads us where he wants us to go if you want him to. But if he takes us from where we are that means that we all have a different path. I mean just taking that literally helps. Presuming you live in Utah if we want to meet in Las Vegas you would have to go Southwest. Because I live in LA I would have to go northeast. My first steps would be to go out of my house. Those directions are different than the directions for you to get outside of your house. Turn left at the bedroom door go down the hall to the living room and out the front door, etc. Same thing with God. No one can have the same path. It's impossible. If at first you can't deal with the idea of talking to God, consider "talking" to your gut. Science is about how things work. Talking to your gut will tell you what you want out of life. Those are two different questions. Empirical evidence cannot tell you what you want out of your life. That is a function of religion and talking to your gut. At what I call religion may not be what you called religion right now. To me saving the world from global warming and saving the whales at cetera can be a religion. Any purpose higher than you can be a religion. There are tons of secular religions now, and people actually think that way. If you will read links I will send them to you. Anyway I hope that helps a little. I know you are ornery and I'm ornery too, so all that does is make us arguing Brothers right? I've got one of those too and I love him like crazy. (BIL) Edited July 19, 2018 by mfbukowski Link to comment
Stargazer Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 17 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I don’t think anyone really needs an eternal reward system for morality. I don’t even think religious people believe this, do they? There's an eternal reward for morality?! Wow! Far out, man! Link to comment
Stargazer Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 15 hours ago, Calm said: I have my doubts these days that it will come for everyone though in mortality given my own experience with medication and others' reports. I see it as possible that some brains just aren't wired to receive it so the individual will become conscious of the answer. I believe there is always communication between spirits, but that might not get translated to our mortal awareness (think of what our brains 'know' when we are asleep...I sometimes dream .I am a different person and therefore if by chance anyone was able to share the dream with me, I would not be able to tell them of my nondreamlife...until I woke up). Since .I believe our "probation" continues long after death---perhaps that is when we wake up---I don't see not knowing now as unfair even if it is painful. I see what you're saying and I do not doubt that you're right about that. I've seen people who seem actually incapable of hearing the spirit, not merely because they're wearing earplugs. Perhaps our fun online guy is one of those. I am also familiar with brain miswiring, being somewhat ADD myself, with a son who suffers from paranoid personality disorder. Those of us who are spiritually naturally deaf will of course lose the deafness when they no longer inhabit the body they are in now. Of course you're right that our probation continues after death. That's what the Spirit World is for. 3 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: That guy always hits it. He's out there in the Pacific somewhere meditating under a coconut tree or something. Sadly, it's too cold for coconuts, and I'm too busy with work and Church to meditate, but many thanks nonetheless! 1 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 15 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: It helped a lot to just stop doing it. No, I don’t doubt anyone else’s accounts. I think they’re lucky to have divine contact in their life, and I covet the hell out of it, assuming it’s real. I just haven’t had any contact, so all I have to show me the love that I’m told is being sent my way are strictly secondhand accounts. That’s not enough for me, even if someone else’s cup runneth over. Then, perhaps this applies to you: 13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. (D&C 46:13,14) It has been said that it is dangerous to try to live on borrowed light, but if borrowed light is all you can get, well then it's better than no light at all. Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: For what it is worth I love Hamba's reply to you on this. That guy always hits it. He's out there in the Pacific somewhere meditating under a coconut tree or something. Yeah. I like that guy. I don’t know where he is, but it sounds awesome. Quote So let me clarify. If there are some things that you know are true like that you shouldn't hurt people, you know that through what we call revelation. If you know that you have had something revealed to you.!!! Anything you feel in your gut is revelation. Mormons call that the Light of Christ. Maybe that's what you're not getting. I know in my gut this is the right path for me. I say that in Mormonrse as " I know the church is true." We agree there is no empirical evidence, but (again, this might be through your deflativisic lens, so please elucidate me) I don’t see why that means I’m receiving them from god. I can’t weigh options, predict outcomes, and judge their happiness value or whatever? I’m really asking, because I need you to explain your whole system like every reply, because it still confuses me. Sorry. Quote To me not knowing the latest developments in philosophy is like believing that people didn't land on the Moon, or that we don't have rockets etc capable of doing that. To me, believing in god is in some ways similar to believing we couldn’t possibly have gone to the moon. I think there are actually groups of somehow sincere people making memes about this very belief as we type. I want to read it and then pick your brain a bit about how you’ve synced it to your Mormon conversion and stuff. Especially if you truly think it might help me (assuming I’m not to dumb to grasp it, which is fairly likely). But I admit, this might be some time down the road. I’ve still got to go get the books AND read them. Some of us work graveyard shifts and have to lay in bed 2 hours for every one slept, as is the law of the day sleeper. Quote So if you love someone that's from your gut. If you forgive people that's from your gut. Anything's that disgusts you comes from your gut. Anything that makes you happy comes from your gut. That’s not proper nomenclature. MODS! Is everything to be known only from the gut, then? Or would answering that spoil the ending to the Wittgenstein saga? Quote Anyway I truly hope that helps. Once I make sense of all the new stuff, yeah. I’m sure it will at least know if you’re making some of this stuff up just because you take pleasure in confusing me. Quote Anything you feel deep inside you and your gut is revelation. It doesn't have to agree with other folks either. The path God wants for you is not the same path other folks need. We are all Unique Individuals and God takes us where we are and leads us where he wants us to go if you want him to This is another fork in the road, discussion-wise, but how do you parse gut feelings that one ought to do right and gut feelings that one should do something that is bad but that they think is good? I’m sure there are numerous ways to phrase that better, but I’m that guy earlier from the graveyard shifts, and if I take the time to re-write that question, then I won’t have time to write this explanation, and I’ll fall asleep into my phone screen. Quote But if he takes us from where we are that means that we all have a different path. I mean just taking that literally helps. Presuming you live in Utah if we want to meet in Las Vegas you would have to go Southwest. Because I live in LA I would have to go northeast. Buddy, you got ripped off on this deal. I live in Vegas. Have fun doing all the driving, sucker. I see what you’re saying, though. Quote If at first you can't deal with the idea of talking to God, consider "talking" to your gut. Science is about how things work. Talking to your gut will tell you what you want out of life. Those are two different questions. Now you’re getting through to me. I still don’t know how you’ve made that next step to god, but let me do the homework before I attempt to hash it out with you. Quote Empirical evidence cannot tell you what you want out of your life. That is a function of religion and talking to your gut. At what I call religion may not be what you called religion right now. To me saving the world from global warming and saving the whales at cetera can be a religion. Any purpose higher than you can be a religion. There are tons of secular religions now, and people actually think that way. If you will read links I will send them to you. Anyway I hope that helps a little. It does. Just when I thought we were using different google translators or something. Thanks. Quote I know you are ornery and I'm ornery too, so all that does is make us arguing Brothers right? I've got one of those too and I love him like crazy. I think we probably both come off as orneryer that we really are. Quote (BIL) Sorry, I don’t understand this. I’m assuming it’s a hip internet acronym, but I’m all I’m coming up with is “Bitcoin Is Legit.” Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 40 minutes ago, Stargazer said: It has been said that it is dangerous to try to live on borrowed light, but if borrowed light is all you can get, well then it's better than no light at all. I’m aware of the idea, but I can’t bring myself to be satisfied with borrowed light. Call it pride. 🤷♂️ 2 Link to comment
pogi Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Sadly, it's too cold for coconuts, and I'm too busy with work and Church to meditate, but many thanks nonetheless! This reminds me of a story that President McKay told the 12 apostles - just something to ponder on, and a gentle nudge... Quote President [David O.] McKay said, “We don’t take sufficient time to meditate.” I get up early in the morning … , five o’clock, when my mind and spirit are clear and rested. Then I meditate. You can come closer to the Lord than you imagine when you learn to meditate. Let your spirits be taught by the Spirit.8 The Twelve will not soon forget President David O. McKay’s admonition in our council meeting one morning when he impressed the vital importance of taking time to meditate in order to keep spiritually attuned. … “It’s a great thing to be responsive to the whisperings of the Spirit and we know that when these whisperings come it is a gift and our privilege to have them. They come when we are relaxed and not under pressure of appointments.” The President then took occasion to relate an experience in the life of Bishop John Wells, formerly a member of the Presiding Bishopric. A son of Bishop Wells was killed in Emigration Canyon on a railroad track. … His boy was run over by a freight train. Sister Wells was inconsolable. She mourned during the three days prior to the funeral, received no comfort at the funeral, and was in a rather serious state of mind. One day soon after the funeral services, while she was lying on her bed relaxed, still mourning, she claims that her son appeared to her and said, “Mother, do not mourn. Do not cry. I am all right.” He told her that she did not understand how the accident happened. He explained that he had given a signal to the engineer to move on and then made the usual effort to catch the railings on the freight train, but as he attempted to do so his foot caught in a root and he failed to catch the hand rail and his body fell under the train. It was clearly an accident. He said that as soon as he realized that he was in another environment he tried to see his father but he could not reach him. His father was so busy with the duties in the office that he could not respond to his call; therefore, he had come to his mother and he said to her, “You tell Father that all is well with me. I want you to not mourn anymore.” Then President McKay said that the point he had in mind was that when we are relaxed in a private room we are more susceptible to those things, that so far as he was concerned his best thoughts come after he gets up in the morning and is relaxed and thinking about the duties of the day, that impressions come as clearly as if he were to hear a voice and those impressions are right. If we are worried about something and upset in our feelings the inspiration does not come. If we so live that our minds are free from worry and our conscience clear and our feelings are right toward one another, the operation of the spirit of the Lord upon our spirit is as real as when we pick up the telephone; but when they come, note this, we must be brave enough to take the suggested action. … Let that be something to remember—you do likewise. Take time to meditate. Many times you will be wrestling with problems, the solution of which can be spiritually discerned.9 Don’t get so busy that you don’t have time to meditate. Take the time. The most important testimony does not come by sight, but by the inner witness. Christ may be nearer than we have knowledge. “I am in your midst, but you do not see me. The Holy Ghost bears the sure witness. Mine eyes are upon you. The day cometh when ye shall know that I am.” https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-19?lang=eng Edited July 19, 2018 by pogi Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: Yeah. I like that guy. I don’t know where he is, but it sounds awesome. We agree there is no empirical evidence, but (again, this might be through your deflativisic lens, so please elucidate me) I don’t see why that means I’m receiving them from god. I can’t weigh options, predict outcomes, and judge their happiness value or whatever? I’m really asking, because I need you to explain your whole system like every reply, because it still confuses me. Sorry. To me, believing in god is in some ways similar to believing we couldn’t possibly have gone to the moon. I think there are actually groups of somehow sincere people making memes about this very belief as we type. I want to read it and then pick your brain a bit about how you’ve synced it to your Mormon conversion and stuff. Especially if you truly think it might help me (assuming I’m not to dumb to grasp it, which is fairly likely). But I admit, this might be some time down the road. I’ve still got to go get the books AND read them. Some of us work graveyard shifts and have to lay in bed 2 hours for every one slept, as is the law of the day sleeper. That’s not proper nomenclature. MODS! Is everything to be known only from the gut, then? Or would answering that spoil the ending to the Wittgenstein saga? Once I make sense of all the new stuff, yeah. I’m sure it will at least know if you’re making some of this stuff up just because you take pleasure in confusing me. This is another fork in the road, discussion-wise, but how do you parse gut feelings that one ought to do right and gut feelings that one should do something that is bad but that they think is good? I’m sure there are numerous ways to phrase that better, but I’m that guy earlier from the graveyard shifts, and if I take the time to re-write that question, then I won’t have time to write this explanation, and I’ll fall asleep into my phone screen. Buddy, you got ripped off on this deal. I live in Vegas. Have fun doing all the driving, sucker. I see what you’re saying, though. Now you’re getting through to me. I still don’t know how you’ve made that next step to god, but let me do the homework before I attempt to hash it out with you. It does. Just when I thought we were using different google translators or something. Thanks. I think we probably both come off as orneryer that we really are. Sorry, I don’t understand this. I’m assuming it’s a hip internet acronym, but I’m all I’m coming up with is “Bitcoin Is Legit.” At first you can't tell if it comes from God or not, but at least you learn you have a "gut" and to accept or question what it says. The idea here is to learn to trust the "inner voice" we all have as long as it is telling you things you feel deep down are "right" meaning feel good in your heart, give you peace, and seem to make sense even if you don't quite understand how they make sense at the moment. If it says "Jump off the bridge" don't do it. The bottom line is that you CAN trust your feelings- it does NOT have to have "empirical evidence", because the subject matter itself is not about what is empirical, it is about what gives YOU purpose in your life and a sense of peace. The smartest philosophers out there find that to be perfectly "rational" IN THAT CONTEXT. Section 93 teaches that there are "spheres of truth" and it is exactly right- nowadays all the philosophers go by that as well- those are called "paradigms". There's a talk by President Kimball from the '90's on "Absolute Truth" which nails it pretty well though it is NOT a philosophical article and thank God he was not a philosopher professionally because then no one would understand him. But it talks about different kinds of truth for different professions, and truth which doesn't change as being different kinds of truth. That fits perfectly with the ideas of paradigms which were made popular by a guy named "Kuhn" so if you hear that name you know that is what is being discussed. Scriptures tell us that if it's good and gives you a good feeling, it's from God, if its confusing and feels weird, its no bueno. That's how we talk in LA. In your first posts you talked a lot about empirical evidence- and that is why I pulled the "positivism is dead" deal because I wanted you to understand that even VERY VERY smart folks who have studied it do not believe that empirical evidence is the only way to describe "truth". But if you're already there, you can understand that. Empirical evidence about how the world works will never help you find your purpose in life- what you are here to do and how to impact the world. That's what we all want- having a purpose in life!! And all the empirical evidence of historicity or non-historicity and who did what to whom when will NOT give you a purpose in life!! The only thing that gives you purpose is what your gut- that voice inside - tells you is the right thing for you. I am convinced that what the LDS call the "plan of happiness" is just that but that might not work for you. But if it really IS THE PLAN you ought to give it a shot, seeing it in a new way It seems you have a very authoritarian and black and white view of the church's teachings but I am here to tell you you do not have to see it that way It's all about personal revelation and following what is inside you. Yes you need to honestly pass a temple recommend interview but that is the PLAN of happiness! In my book anything else is the plan of UN HAPPINESS. But again your journey may be different legitimately- and that is part of the whole deal. We need to acknowledge that not everyone gets to Vegas by making a right turn and the next street then two lefts, straight for 6 miles and get on the freeway south. Our trips to happiness and godliness may pass through Buddhism maybe- mine did for a while! And atheism- but I see now I needed that to get here! And all that after being raised Catholic and philosophy grad school which I gave up because who wants to teach Aristotle for the rest of your life? But I did all the course work.... So for a long long time I have thought this way- then along comes the church and long story short - God showed me VERY strongly that this was the "right course" for me- we call that a "testimony"- but the philosophy came first Hope that helps. Oh and "bil" is an indicator of who I was talking about in case he sees it- wasn't really part of the message. Edited July 19, 2018 by mfbukowski 1 Link to comment
USU78 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Proton durability. Does it require maintenance? How would we know whether it does or doesn't? If it does, is that evidence of partiality or indifference? Proton durability is that sine qua non without which the physical universe cannot exist in a form permissive of organic life. Do you see why our mole eye view of phenomena doesn't permit us to know (as you would use the term) whether we're dealing with a Deus Absconditus? 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Proton durability. Does it require maintenance? How would we know whether it does or doesn't? If it does, is that evidence of partiality or indifference? Proton durability is that sine qua non without which the physical universe cannot exist in a form permissive of organic life. Do you see why our mole eye view of phenomena doesn't permit us to know (as you would use the term) whether we're dealing with a Deus Absconditus? Just an occasional oil change. Exactly!! I just hope that one didn't just fly over the cuckoo's nest, but a great example. Edited July 19, 2018 by mfbukowski Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: At first you can't tell if it comes from God or not, but at least you learn you have a "gut" and to accept or question what it says. The idea here is to learn to trust the "inner voice" we all have as long as it is telling you things you feel deep down are "right" meaning feel good in your heart, give you peace, and seem to make sense even if you don't quite understand how they make sense at the moment. Okay, but I’m the protagonist of my universe, so that’s fine with me but, what about the other humans that are trusting their guts too? There’s some bananas stuff that comes from this process. I guess I’m asking if it’s a trustworthy medium, given the vice it produces with equal fervor. I know this is an old gripe, but I think this is where it’s supposed to go. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: But if you're already there, you can understand that. Empirical evidence about how the world works will never help you find your purpose in life- what you are here to do and how to impact the world. That's what we all want- having a purpose in life!! And all the empirical evidence of historicity or non-historicity and who did what to whom when will NOT give you a purpose in life!! But in order to declare that something is out there—it exists—a gut feeling wouldn’t be enough to ever convince me I have enough information to make that kind of claim. Maybe I’m still just a dirty positivist. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: It seems you have a very authoritarian and black and white view of the church's teachings but I am here to tell you you do not have to see it that way Oh, you’ve not been to Utah Valley? I’ve smuggled Dr. Pepper into youth activities. I’ve known life on the inside. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: So for a long long time I have thought this way- then along comes the church and long story short - God showed me VERY strongly that this was the "right course" for me- we call that a "testimony"- but the philosophy came first Hope that helps. I think so. Thanks. 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Oh and "bil" is an indicator of who I was talking about in case he sees it- wasn't really part of the message. Roger. Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Proton durability. Does it require maintenance? How would we know whether it does or doesn't? If it does, is that evidence of partiality or indifference? Proton durability is that sine qua non without which the physical universe cannot exist in a form permissive of organic life. Do you see why our mole eye view of phenomena doesn't permit us to know (as you would use the term) whether we're dealing with a Deus Absconditus? I would never claim to have evidence for or against god. I can, however, say very definitively, that I don’t know if there is one. No matter how thinly we slice it up, I still won’t know, especially when you’re using Harry Potter spells and stuff, man. We get it. I’m sorted to slytherin. Give it a rest. Link to comment
CV75 Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 19 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: It helped a lot to just stop doing it. No, I don’t doubt anyone else’s accounts. I think they’re lucky to have divine contact in their life, and I covet the hell out of it, assuming it’s real. I just haven’t had any contact, so all I have to show me the love that I’m told is being sent my way are strictly secondhand accounts. That’s not enough for me, even if someone else’s cup runneth over. Let me suggest that the love you feel for others is pretty much the reflection of the love you feel from God, and to a similar extent, the love you feel for Him. It's a dynamic that combines the principles of 1 John 4:19 and Matthew 5:40. Link to comment
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