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The Problem of Indifference


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15 hours ago, Eek! said:

Isn't it kind of a waste of time and energy to carry around a bunch of grievances against something you don't believe exists?   Isn't that kinda like raging against Santa Claus?  

I don’t think it’s a waste of time. I don’t think it’s like raging against Santa clause. I enjoy discussing things with people. It’s a weird hobby. I just happen to come from a Mormon background, so this discussion board ended up in my discursive path.

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It sounds to me like you don't need any eternal reward/eternal punishment system to pressure you into being a good parent.   I suspect that likewise you need no eternal reward/punishment system to pressure you into being a good person.  There is a certain baggage-free purity to being a moral atheist, in my opinion.   The rest of us secretly hope someone up there is watching when we do something good.  For the atheist, virtue is its own reward, as there is no such secret hope. 

I don’t think anyone really needs an eternal reward system for morality. I don’t even think religious people believe this, do they?

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Years ago when I was in the MTC, in the main entryway was a replica of some engraved words that had impressed David O. McKay when he was on his mission in the bonny hills of Scotland.  Those words are, "What e're thou art, act well thy part." 

Sounds to me like your part includes "moral good-parent kinda snarky yet kinda friendly atheist".  My suggestion is, just be the best version of whatever YOU see as being your part. 

Geez, now I’m worried that this is it—this is the best version.

Thanks, too. Your summary of my part is a very generous re-telling. 

Edited by FunOnlineMan
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10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Gladly, if, as I suggested earlier, you will stop and consider beforehand that what you write often comes across flippant and dismissive, even puerile, such as your calling a spiritual experience goosebumps and a feeling in the gut. That is incorrect and offensive. I have never heard a Mormon describe it as anything like that. 

Okay, never mind. I’ll just stay in trouble. 

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I accidentally deleted the quote box for your first question. It was about knowing who is knocking on the door. Here is my answer:

Since I’ve never received supernatural contact, I admit I don’t really have a surefire way to tell who’s on the other end. I would assume god could convince me, though. He’s god. 

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I witnessed my father’s miraculous conversion to the gospel. I was in the room when it happened and saw the change it made in him for the rest of his life. When I have doubts or troubles, I find it helpful to remember what God did for my father. 

Like this when Alma was saying farewell to his son Helaman....

I see. Yeah, I’ve never said religion is bad or that god ruins lives. I definitely see that my family is, for the most part, happy in their religion. I’m glad they’re happy. I love them. 

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Of course, this probably will not convince you nor will it solve your problem. Or maybe you might consider what God did for your grandmother.

No. Unfortunately, their faith doesn’t convince me. Their joy doesn’t convince me. Like I said, I’m happy for them, but it doesn’t convince me. It also doesn’t solve the problem I have with the father god.

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5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The heavenly model is the ideal earthly model, but the problem is, because it's out of your sight you can't see the heavenly model in action.  You have to wing it.

Yeah, that’s my complaint. 

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Heavenly parents brought us up, and as perfectly as possible, but even there we had agency and could choose wrong -- as Lucifer and one-third of us did.  We do not remember how we were brought up in our pre-existence, so we cannot use it as a model for this mortal life.  It ought to be blazingly obvious, however, that we should treat our offspring with both love and firmness, teaching proper behavior by both precept and our exampleWe can't force them to be good; they have their agency in the end.  And just like our Heavenly Parents did by sending us into mortality, we eventually have to send our mortal children into the world to fend for themselves.  

The underlined part above is the heavenly parenting model, as far as I can determine.  And I would definitely prescribe it as viable.

I do not have a direct example, though. That’s what I’m saying. I have to go off of secondhand accounts. At the risk of being ungrateful, I think he can and should do better. 

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58 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I have no memories of ever feeling the spirit. I feel like if I did and forgot, then I probably didn’t.

 

So growing up, what caused you to want to pray and read your scriptures, and make covenants in the temple, and continue to seek to know God's will, etc.?

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3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For what it's worth I just found out that the usual traditional Med for ADHD "Rit.lin" will cause you to get a 403 Forbidden message if you post it fully spelled out. Go figure.

Pretty much any drug will do it.  I suspect it is because of the spam that sends out a list of drugs you can get at online pharmacies.

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3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I’m not suggesting you are too clinical. I am suggesting that, where you are wondering how LDS thinkers reconcile this problem, there are other facets to consider than thinking alone.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. 

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

The three examples I offered are not comprehensive and may not apply directly to your experience, but there are many others that do. The point is that God, who is perfectly capable yet unsuccessful in communicating His love with you may be facing barriers over which He has no control, or has chosen not to communicate per your expectations in advancing your greater good. We see that happen even with regular people all the time! I recommend you research where God has withheld communication or knowledge in a non-punitive or apathetic way, or without purpose.

But I have no way of knowing what I did to prevent contact. How do I correct the issue and get that knock on the door if I don’t know how I’m blocking it?

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Regarding expectations, your expression of love and His may simply not yet be on the same wavelength. That is solely between you and He.

I’ll have to take your word for it, though. And to me, that’s a real bummer. 

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50 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. 

But I have no way of knowing what I did to prevent contact. How do I correct the issue and get that knock on the door if I don’t know how I’m blocking it?

I’ll have to take your word for it, though. And to me, that’s a real bummer. 

All we can do is our best (any good thought, desire, inclination, etc. that you have works in your favor) and wait in the Lord. You're not having any issue on your side of the equation that you can't correct that way.

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1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Yeah, that’s my complaint. 

I do not have a direct example, though. That’s what I’m saying. I have to go off of secondhand accounts. At the risk of being ungrateful, I think he can and should do better. 

You make me laugh! :D  Your direct example is your own parents, or those who cared for you.  Where these did not do right by you, recognize their errors, and work to not make them yourself.

There is nothing more to it than to love your children, treat them with respect, teach them how they should go on, and as it is appropriate to their age and maturity, allow them to make their own choices. After you have taught them and loved them, they must eventually do as seemeth them good.  Sometimes they will make mistakes, and if you have taught them well enough, and shielded them from the own immaturity and ignorance until they could act wisely, they will recover from their mistakes.  And sometimes they will not.  

I don't think there's much more to it. It's no great mystery. Although, as they say "the devil's in the details".

What do you want to bet that God is not watching you screw your life up and doing the occasional facepalm?  You got to grow up sometime, that's what it's about.

Or are you one of those folks who complain constantly that nobody's there to hold your hand?  I'm a computer programmer.  Technology advances, and changes. Constantly.  If you want to become obsolete, just sit there like a bump on a log.  It won't take long.  I once worked with a man who constantly complained that our employer wasn't spending enough money on sending us out for training on stuff.  It was during a budget crunch.  I told him to go out and buy a book on the technology in question and work through it, if he wanted to learn "stuff". He looked at me like I was out of my mind.  It was he who was out of his mind.  And eventually he became largely useless -- because he had to held by the hand.

Just do it.

 

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41 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What do you want to bet that God is not watching you screw your life up and doing the occasional facepalm?  You got to grow up sometime, that's what it's about.

This makes him sound like a not good guy. 

41 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Or are you one of those folks who complain constantly that nobody's there to hold your hand?  I'm a computer programmer.  Technology advances, and changes. Constantly.  If you want to become obsolete, just sit there like a bump on a log.  It won't take long.  I once worked with a man who constantly complained that our employer wasn't spending enough money on sending us out for training on stuff.  It was during a budget crunch.  I told him to go out and buy a book on the technology in question and work through it, if he wanted to learn "stuff". He looked at me like I was out of my mind.  It was he who was out of his mind.  And eventually he became largely useless -- because he had to held by the hand.

Just do it.

No. I don’t complain about people not having people to hold my hand. I don’t have to complain about that, because I have lots of people in my life who hold my hand if I need it. My complaint is in response to claims that there is a person who occasionally shows up to hold my hand, but I don’t know this guy. 

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14 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

 

This makes him sound like a not good guy. 

If you saw one of your children doing something very unwise that he should have known he be doing, wouldn't you be rather frustrated about it?  And would he appreciate your turning up to tell him to cut it out?  I can tell you from personal experience that your children do not necessarily want you to tell them what to do -- especially when they want to do what they want to do.  It think that if your Heavenly Father were to show up every hour to tell you what you should be doing at that time, you'd not like it very well either.  Especially with all the bright light burning your retinas out.  You're here to be proven, to see what you will do if given full free reign to do your own will.  If He interrupted you regularly to make you do stuff it wouldn't prove a darned thing.  Nor would you learn anything.

14 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

No. I don’t complain about people not having people to hold my hand. I don’t have to complain about that, because I have lots of people in my life who hold my hand if I need it. My complaint is in response to claims that there is a person who occasionally shows up to hold my hand, but I don’t know this guy. 

I get it that you haven't felt anything that you can identify as the spirit of God testifying to you about the truth of the gospel.  I cannot offer much in the way of personal instruction as to why this hasn't happened to you.  Have you prayed in faith?  How could I know?  I can't.

Let me tell you about a personal experience I had once.  I was actually on my mission, still in training at what today would be called the MTC (this was pre-MTC, however).  There was a particular question about God's plan for me that I figured I was owed an answer to.  I prayed every night asking for an answer, for a good half hour each time.  I got nothing.  After a solid week of this, I was frustrated that I wasn't making any headway, and went to speak with one of the advisers at the training center about it.  He cleared the matter up fairly quickly; his advice was surprising, but I could see his point.  The next opportunity I had, I followed his advice, and got the answer to my prayer.  It was one of the most precious experiences of my life.  Up to that point, I had a quiet feeling that God was real, that he was guiding me, albeit with a very light touch, but after this I knew that he was there, that he knew who I was, and cared about me.  

One of the keys to this experience was my willingness to go where he wanted me to go. Another was my willingness to do what he wanted me to do.  Possibly the most important key was my faith that he could answer me, and would answer me, if only I wanted an answer badly enough.  Some things come easily; some things come hard.  That which I wanted to know was apparently hard, but the answer was surprisingly short, simple and easy, and it opened my heart to great understanding.

I know nothing about you, nor what has gone on in your life, nor what your handicaps and hangups might be.  But I can be very sure that if you want it badly enough, you'll do what it takes to get it.  Naaman was told to bathe in the Jordan River seven times, and he almost let his prejudice and his pride and his lack of faith talk him out of doing what he was told to do.  But listening to good advice, he went and did that what cured him.  

If you've got a complaint about God, fine. Take the complaint to him.  Tell him that you really want to know him, and want to know that he is really there.  Tell him that you don't appreciate being left in the lurch about him.  Convince him that you will do what he wants you to do with your life, if he can but convince you that he is there and has a plan for you.  And you better be at least a little hopeful that he is there, or else you're talking to no purpose.  Also try thinking back in your life to times when you think he might have been either guiding you or watching out for you.  And when you talk to him, don't listen with your ears. Listen with your heart.  God doesn't normally come gate-crashing; only when it's terribly urgent, like when Paul was on the road to Damascus, or Joseph Smith was wondering which church to join.  Remember that when the prophet Elijah fled from Israel because the people were rejecting the prophets, and killing them, and only he was left alive, God revealed to him (after 40 days of fasting) that His voice was still and small.  (1 Kings 19:8-12)

And stop complaining that God isn't holding your hand.  As you say, you've got your own resources for that, if you want them.  But you may find that it isn't God who is refusing to hold your hand, it is you who might be refusing to take the hand he proffers you.

My best wishes to you.

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4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Okay, never mind. I’ll just stay in trouble. 

Interesting response.

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4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I accidentally deleted the quote box for your first question. It was about knowing who is knocking on the door. Here is my answer:

Since I’ve never received supernatural contact, I admit I don’t really have a surefire way to tell who’s on the other end. I would assume god could convince me, though. He’s god. 

I see. Yeah, I’ve never said religion is bad or that god ruins lives. I definitely see that my family is, for the most part, happy in their religion. I’m glad they’re happy. I love them. 

No. Unfortunately, their faith doesn’t convince me. Their joy doesn’t convince me. Like I said, I’m happy for them, but it doesn’t convince me. It also doesn’t solve the problem I have with the father god.

You asked how LDS handle these things yet when given answers from their experiences in dealing with the same issue you simply dismiss them out of hand. What do you really want here? Are you seriously looking for resolution or just having some online fun?

It appears what you may want here is to have a place to vent so other people can validate and console you, and to be amused by those who won’t. Great. 

The only person who can solve your dilemma is you, and you know that very well. If you indeed have the long experience you claim in the Church, then you know what to do. For you, your position is valid. It’s your baby...you get to burp and change it. So we are still where we were at the start. I wish you well on your quest.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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5 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I don’t think it’s a waste of time. I don’t think it’s like raging against Santa clause. I enjoy discussing things with people. It’s a weird hobby. I just happen to come from a Mormon background, so this discussion board ended up in my discursive path.

Okay, I get that.  I come here kinda for the same reason, but I actually do believe a lot of the teachings that are found in Mormonism. 

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I don’t think anyone really needs an eternal reward system for morality. I don’t even think religious people believe this, do they?

You may be right. 

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Geez, now I’m worried that this is it—this is the best version.

Thanks, too. Your summary of my part is a very generous re-telling. 

I think we all fight similar battles, even if our battlefields look different.  We are all choosing between what we believe deep down inside to be right, and something else.  

*  *  *  *

I tried out atheism for a while, mainly because I was angry that some things I thought God had told me turned out to be not only untrue but destructive.  So in my mind God was either a liar or did not exist, and the latter seemed more plausible - it was more likely that I had deceived myself.  Yes I know these are not the only possibilities, but I wanted to be an atheist so that's what I became.  For a while.   

But two things made it hard for me to be a strong atheist.  The first is, there seems to be a slightly positive bias to the universe, because otherwise, conscious life forms (Iike the ones exchanging ideas on this forum) are simply too improbable.  Even if conscious life forms arose due to natural laws following their natural courses, that still means there is a slightly positive bias baked into those natural laws.  No that's not the same thing as God, but it is "something".  Where does a slight positive bias come from in a random universe?  If the universe were truly random it would have no bias, but a slightly positive bias demonstrably exists, so the universe is not truly random. 

My second stumbling block was an experience I had that seemed to offer evidence of "something" that could be statistically evaluated.  I won't bore you with the details because even if you believed me, it would prove nothing.

Eventually I started building my own belief system, focused on finding a few good ideas to use as guides.   My only carved-in-stone dogma is that my belief system have no carved-in-stone dogmas.  This has two functions: 1) it keeps me from taking myself too seriously; and 2) makes it easy to abandon old ideas when better ones come along.

Edited by Eek!
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5 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Don’t you want more?

No. Why do you think I would?  

5 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

It’s certainly not common.

Hmmmmm. Do you have any research or stats to back that up? My professional experience is that it is more common than not having spiritual experiences. 

5 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

It’s not comforting, to me, to think there would be months of time where I’m unwittingly doing things to keep my father from contacting me.

Oh, I'm not so convinced any of those things keep Him from contacting me. More like they kept me from getting a good signal. 

We just went camping. My kids, especially my 6 year old, liked to wander just out of sight but within earshot. Then they usually come back and check in. One time he wandered a little too far away and didn't get a response when he called my name. He panicked a little, but weekly came close enough he could hear me and follow my voice back to camp. I think my wanderings are more like that. I usually find He's right there, and been there all along, but I wasn't paying attention. 

My oldest son once asked to hang out with some friends at a community event. I was also at the event, so I let him go with a cell phone and instructions to check in every 30 min. At 45 min and not hearing from him, I called the number. It went straight to voicemail. I called several more times while wandering the event looking for him. After a while I did find him and got a little heated that he hadn't answered. He looked surprised and while he admitted to forgetting to call at 30 min. He hadn't ignored any calls. He pulled the phone out of his pocket to find that the battery had popped off the back. 

Now maybe I'm a bad dad for having him use an older flip phone rather than the latest model of iPhone. And I'm suggesting, because I don't believe, that God is limited or helpless to overcome communication issues like I was in this story. But I'm sure glad my son didn't jump to the conclusion that I was a bad dad because we weren't in contact for a couple hours. 

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59 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You asked how LDS handle these things yet when given answers from their experiences in dealing with the same issue you simply dismiss them out of hand. What do you really want here? Are you seriously looking for resolution or just having some online fun?

It appears what you may want here is to have a place to vent so other people can validate and console you, and to be amused by those who won’t. Great. 

I asked similar questions and I think I've come to a similar conclusion. 

 

For anyone interested in understanding or actually resolving problems related to faith in God and the Church, I highly recommend Wendy Ulrich's addresses at Fair conferences:

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2007-Wendy-Ulrich.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj55pzq0KncAhUjHzQIHUApD00QFjAEegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2Dy-13HJKgQRCWPCrCwIs3

And

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2005/believest-thou-faith-cognitive-dissonance-and-the-psychology-of-religious-experience

Edited by kllindley
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You asked how LDS handle these things yet when given answers from their experiences in dealing with the same issue you simply dismiss them out of hand. What is that you really want here?

I’m sorry you think I’m dismissive, Bernard. 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

The only person who can solve your dilemma is you, and you know that very well. If you indeed have the long experience you claim in the Church, then you know what to do.

It appears what you want here is to have a place to vent so other people can validate and console your position, and to be amused by those who won’t. Great. 

For you, your position is valid. It’s your baby...you get to burp and change it. So we are still where we were at the start. I wish you well on that quest.

So are you the official welcome wagon? Because I have some notes. 

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7 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Because online snark is as far as I think anyone should ever go. 

I don’t have to think harm is wrong. Harm is wrong. I have no evidence. Positivism is dead. You need to get out more. 

Cute but you need to think that one through.

Most important things in your life have nothing to do with empirical evidence.

Either you believe that or you don't.

 

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You asked how LDS handle these things yet when given answers from their experiences in dealing with the same issue you simply dismiss them out of hand. What do you really want here? Are you seriously looking for resolution or just having some online fun?

It appears what you may want here is to have a place to vent so other people can validate and console you, and to be amused by those who won’t. Great. 

The only person who can solve your dilemma is you, and you know that very well. If you indeed have the long experience you claim in the Church, then you know what to do. For you, your position is valid. It’s your baby...you get to burp and change it. So we are still where we were at the start. I wish you well on your quest.

But he's such a sweetheart. ;)

Or is it fun guy?

No I forgot. Fungi.

The fan club grows daily.

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

So are you the official welcome wagon? Because I have some notes. 

Perhaps.

I hope your notes are in tune. So far they’ve been randomly discordant, but having taught junior high music for 35 years, I’m used to that. It’s all in fun, right? 

Back to your OP. What have you learned about your initial question?

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Cute but you need to think that one through.

Most important things in your life have nothing to do with empirical evidence.

Either you believe that or you don't.

 

I think I’ve lost the connection between all this and my question. 

But sure, there are things I believe that have nothing to do with empirical evidence. Sometimes, I just don’t want people harmed on my behalf. 

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But I can be very sure that if you want it badly enough, you'll do what it takes to get it.

I have my doubts these days that it will come for everyone though in mortality given my own experience with medication and others' reports.  I see it as possible that some brains just aren't wired to receive it so the individual will become conscious of the answer.  I believe there is always communication between spirits, but that might not get translated to our mortal awareness (think of what our brains 'know' when we are asleep...I sometimes dream .I am a different person and therefore if by chance anyone was able to share the dream with me, I would not be able to tell them of my nondreamlife...until I woke up).

Since .I believe our "probation" continues long after death---perhaps that is when we wake up---I don't see not knowing now as unfair even if it is painful.

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6 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I really wanted to believe in god.

Ok, I can understand that.  I'm sorry that you feel that you've never had any experience with God.  I can imagine that that was a very difficult place to be, especially if you were testifying of things that you knew were true, that you didn't actually know.  That would have to take a toll.

I think, judging from your other posts, that you might be making the common "if it didn't happen to me, then it can't happen to anyone else" mistake.  Just like it's not logical or fair for me to try to argue that my experience proves your's is false, it's not going to go over very well if you try to argue that your experience proves other people's false.  These are subjective experiences that are personal.  

 

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But he's such a sweetheart. ;)

Or is it fun guy?

No I forgot. Fungi.

The fan club grows daily.

I actually like you. I just wish I’d read more philosophy.

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps.

I hope your notes are in tune. So far they’ve been randomly discordant, but having taught junior high music for 35 years, I’m used to that. It’s all in fun, right? 

I hope that helped relieve some of the tension over there. 

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Back to your OP. What have you learned about your initial question?

Good question. As far as various reconciliations of the problem, some are satisfied that the amount and means of personal contact with their god is sufficient to be able to call him their father. Either because they receive regular contact or because irregularities are seen as inevitable to account for the plan of salvation and/or slight on an eternal scale. Some agreed that there is indeed a problem here, and related their feelings. Of those, one is a pronounced deist, into which I’d like to look further. Another seems to be leaning toward deism as well.  There were also some who came in to give me stern talking tos and question my integrity. And then there’s whatever this Mark character believes. I still can’t tell if he’s making some of it up, but the red phone checked out, so he may be getting my attention. I also may have left some off. I was spinning some conversational plates a bit, so it’s still a bit jumbled. 

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