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NDEs and Visits from the Other Side (U.S. News Article)


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Here:

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Near Death, Seeing Dead People May Be Neither Rare Nor Eerie
BY GARY ROTSTEIN, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

PITTSBURGH (AP) — Beth Roncevich's father was in his last few days of life, lying in bed in his Indiana Township home with her and her mother somberly by his side.

Though his eyes were closed while terminally ill from lung disease on that day four years ago, laughter unexpectedly emerged from Albin Langus.

"I said 'Dad, what are you laughing at?' He said, 'Oh, we're all together.' "

The bewildered Roncevich and her mother wondered who and what he was seeing. He was even giggling.

"He said, 'Everybody's together and we're all just having a wonderful time. We're having so much fun' ... and those were the last words he spoke," she recounted last week between her visits to patients of UPMC Family Hospice and Palliative Care. "I said to my mom, 'What more could we ask for than that?' Wherever he was going, he was in a good place and happy."

Her father's sense of a final party with whoever it was – she's still not sure who – occurred shortly before Roncevich became a hospice nurse. In that field, she's become accustomed to hearing of such positive encounters from her patients – or from their relatives who describe what the patients told them.

In particular, say she and others who work with the dying, individuals might report a vision, hallucination or dream of someone who preceded them in death. It is often a long-lost loved one – mothers are most common, but fathers, siblings, grandparents and even pets also frequently show up, seemingly welcoming them to whatever lies next.

But that is not what is described in research that was published in 2014, based on interviews with patients at The Center for Hospice & Palliative Care, located in a Buffalo, N.Y., suburb. The patients were interviewed about dreams they had while asleep, visions they had while awake and things they saw or sensed while in the blurry state between sleep and wakefulness that is common during final days and weeks.

Of 63 patients in the analysis, 52 reported a dream or vision – and the dreams typically would be different from those of the general population with their everyday experiences and anxieties.

The entire article is worth a read.  I was sort of surprised to see this in U.S. News.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That was an interesting read. Thank you for posting it. The suggestion from the article is that these dreams and visions may be the brain's mechanism for comforting the dying and reducing the fear of death, which makes sense. But who knows? 

Indeed.  I liked this remark by Dr. Kerr:

Quote

Dr. Kerr said he does not practice religion, but considering the frequency and realism of positive experiences by dying patients in connecting with those who died before them, "it's hard to walk away from this and not be more inspired and hopeful of both life and death. ... I guess it feels as though there's something of having lived that goes on."

I wonder if the circumstances of the individual matter.  A person receiving hospice/palliative care may have more time to prepare to meet death, and hence see it as "just another path, one that we all must take" (as Tolkien put it).

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I am aware of several such events in my family.

My aunt (my mother's younger sister) died of cardiomyopathy when she was 32, six months after giving birth to her seventh child. Late one night, she got out of bed and went to the closet to put on a coat. My uncle got up and tried to get her to go back to bed, but she kept saying, "You don't understand. I have to go. It's time for me to go." She collapsed and died right there.

When my grandmother died (also of cardiomyopathy), my mother was at her side. She said that my grandmother had been sleeping off and on and was very weak. Suddenly, she opened her eyes, and according to my mom, she had a look of absolute joy on her face. Although she was lying in bed, she began moving her arms and legs as if she were walking forward, and then she passed away.

When my brothers Danny and Ross were killed, my dad was lying in bed that night, distraught and unable to sleep. He said my brothers entered the bedroom, and they were smiling and happy, almost joking. Then Danny got a more serious look on his face and told my dad not to worry, that they were fine. And then they left.

I'm not saying these are genuine visions or just the brain coping with death, but they certainly are fascinating and comforting. No matter what happens, it's nice to think I may have those kinds of dreams or visions when I approach death.

Same here.  Thank you for sharing.

-Smac

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I remember reading something about a doctor who painted different type of symbols on the top of things high in the operating room. These symbols were out of sight and one would have to climb on top of something in order to see them. A patient who had an NDE in that operating room described those symbols, as her spirit allegedly rose and floated out of her body.

I cannot remember the book or magazine I read this from. Perhaps someone can help out.

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I had an OBE once that I will never forget..so I tend to be open minded about NDE's and visitations.  I have felt a presence of comfort and assurance at times that I actually asked for it..it was real..at least for me.

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3 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I remember reading something about a doctor who painted different type of symbols on the top of things high in the operating room. These symbols were out of sight and one would have to climb on top of something in order to see them. A patient who had an NDE in that operating room described those symbols, as her spirit allegedly rose and floated out of her body.

I cannot remember the book or magazine I read this from. Perhaps someone can help out.

I have read this too..I read so many books when my husband and mother passed away 3 months apart...so like you...I can't remember which book!

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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That was an interesting read. Thank you for posting it. The suggestion from the article is that these dreams and visions may be the brain's mechanism for comforting the dying and reducing the fear of death, which makes sense. But who knows? 

I am aware of several such events in my family.

My aunt (my mother's younger sister) died of cardiomyopathy when she was 32, six months after giving birth to her seventh child. Late one night, she got out of bed and went to the closet to put on a coat. My uncle got up and tried to get her to go back to bed, but she kept saying, "You don't understand. I have to go. It's time for me to go." She collapsed and died right there.

When my grandmother died (also of cardiomyopathy), my mother was at her side. She said that my grandmother had been sleeping off and on and was very weak. Suddenly, she opened her eyes, and according to my mom, she had a look of absolute joy on her face. Although she was lying in bed, she began moving her arms and legs as if she were walking forward, and then she passed away.

When my brothers Danny and Ross were killed, my dad was lying in bed that night, distraught and unable to sleep. He said my brothers entered the bedroom, and they were smiling and happy, almost joking. Then Danny got a more serious look on his face and told my dad not to worry, that they were fine. And then they left.

I'm not saying these are genuine visions or just the brain coping with death, but they certainly are fascinating and comforting. No matter what happens, it's nice to think I may have those kinds of dreams or visions when I approach death.

Amen. 

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And of course, the famous last words of Brigham Young and Emma Smith, "Joseph, Joseph."

Not to mention the kinds of things that appear in the Spirit World chapter of the Brigham Young manual which go way beyond anything in the scriptures, but fits nicely with the details of many NDE accounts.   I've pointed out that when Heber C. Kimball reported on Jedediah M. Grant's visit to the spirit world, Grant said "Why it was just as Brigham has told us many times."  I think that it goes back to the experience Brigham had at Winter Quarters, when he was very ill, and reported seeing Joseph Smith in the afterlife.  And of course, in the Book of Mormon, all of the teaching about the afterlife comes through Alma, who was converted "Nigh Unto Death."  I wrote an essay on that in JBMS v2.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

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35 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I'm just surprised we don't have more people waking up from NDE's saying "Get me the Mormon elders!"

Are you really surprised?  Wouldn't an NDE validating the particular truth claims of Mormonism be just a bit "on the nose?"  Akin to an angel descending from heaven with instructions to go get "the Mormon elders?"

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Are you really surprised?  Wouldn't an NDE validating the particular truth claims of Mormonism be just a bit "on the nose?" 

Yes....but it's also what the majority of other religions believe (and many people believe the soul lives on after death who are not religious as well).  None of this is exclusive to Mormon beliefs, IMO.

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26 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I'm just surprised we don't have more people waking up from NDE's saying "Get me the Mormon elders!"

At one point Raymond Moody stated that about half his mail regarding Life after Life came from Utah.  His The Light Beyond states that the church of the Latter-day Saints is the most prominent of the Western Religions to have accepted NDEs as a preview of the afterlife. 

Elane Durham had an NDE in which she was shown her own pre-existence as well as a strange vision with 16 covered barges being blown by furious winds.  When she reported this to some young Mormon Elders who happened to knock on her door, they could barely contain themselves.  I met her at the 1999 IANDS conference in SLC.  Her books is fascinating.  I Stand All Amazed.  She did join the church, finding that it was the first place where she could make sense of what she had experienced.

When I lived in California and I also happened have just done my NDE research for "Nigh Unto Death", I commented on it in testimony meeting.  A recent convert approached me and told me an experience he'd had in the early 60s (long before Moody's book) that he'd never discussed since it happened (the people he mentioned it to having treated him as crazy).  The next priesthood meeting, he told the class about it, and the fast Sunday, he told the ward.  He originally come to church because he had growing children and thought he needed to be a better example, and had a memory of a huge "Visitors Welcome" sign the Mormon chapel.  When he came, he was surprised at how small the sign really was.

At the IANDS conference, I also heard a report of Howard Storm's account.  He is not LDS, but his account is rather like Alma's in that it did not begin well.  An atheist before it happened, he soon found reason to think otherwise.  What I still find particularly striking is how often Storm and Alma use very similar language and similar ideas about issues that were not part of the actual account, but rather, reflect how their life and attitudes had changed as a consequence.   Where there are theological differences, they appear to come from his Theological Traning, rather than his experience.  He has a book as well.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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12 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

At one point Raymond Moody stated that about half his mail regarding Life after Life came from Utah.  His The Light Beyond states that the church of the Latter-day Saints is the most prominent of the Western Religions to have accepted NDEs as a preview of the afterlife. 

Elane Durham had an NDE in which she was shown her own pre-existence as well as a strange vision with 16 covered barges being blown by furious winds.  When she reported this to some young Mormon Elders who happened to knock on her door, they could barely contain themselves.  I met her at the 1999 IANDS conference in SLC.  Her books is fascinating.  I Stand All Amazed.  She did join the church, finding that it was the first place where she could make sense of what she had experienced.

When I lived in California and I also happened have just done my NDE research for "Nigh Unto Death", I commented on it in testimony meeting.  A recent convert approached me and told me an experience he'd had in the early 60s (long before Moody's book) that he'd never discussed since it happened (the people he mentioned it to having treated him as crazy).  The next priesthood meeting, he told the class about it, and the fast Sunday, he told the ward.  He originally come to church because he had growing children and thought he needed to be a better example, and had a memory of a huge "Visitors Welcome" sign the Mormon chapel.  When he came, he was surprised at how small the sign really was.

At the IANDS conference, I also heard a report of Howard Storm's account.  He is not LDS, but his account is rather like Alma's in that it did not begin well.  An atheist before it happened, he soon found reason to think otherwise.  What I still find particularly striking is how often Storm and Alma use very similar language and similar ideas about issues that were not part of the actual account, but rather, reflect how their life and attitudes had changed as a consequence.   Where there are theological differences, they appear to come from his Theological Traning, rather than his experience.  He has a book as well.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I'm reminded of a meeting I attended at the height of popularity of Betty Eadie's Embraced by the Light book. President Monson mentioned that he and his wife had been eating at a restaurant, and a woman approached and asked, "Have you read Embraced by the Light?" He replied that he was familiar with its contents. The woman then asked, "Is it the gospel?" He looked out at us over his reading glasses and said, "Do you see what we're up against? People think that's the gospel!"

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5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That was an interesting read. Thank you for posting it. The suggestion from the article is that these dreams and visions may be the brain's mechanism for comforting the dying and reducing the fear of death, which makes sense. But who knows? 

I am aware of several such events in my family.

My aunt (my mother's younger sister) died of cardiomyopathy when she was 32, six months after giving birth to her seventh child. Late one night, she got out of bed and went to the closet to put on a coat. My uncle got up and tried to get her to go back to bed, but she kept saying, "You don't understand. I have to go. It's time for me to go." She collapsed and died right there.

When my grandmother died (also of cardiomyopathy), my mother was at her side. She said that my grandmother had been sleeping off and on and was very weak. Suddenly, she opened her eyes, and according to my mom, she had a look of absolute joy on her face. Although she was lying in bed, she began moving her arms and legs as if she were walking forward, and then she passed away.

When my brothers Danny and Ross were killed, my dad was lying in bed that night, distraught and unable to sleep. He said my brothers entered the bedroom, and they were smiling and happy, almost joking. Then Danny got a more serious look on his face and told my dad not to worry, that they were fine. And then they left.

I'm not saying these are genuine visions or just the brain coping with death, but they certainly are fascinating and comforting. No matter what happens, it's nice to think I may have those kinds of dreams or visions when I approach death.

I'm so sorry for all of your losses, so difficult to go through I'm sure. Glad you have these stories to refer to when you're missing your family members. I can't imagine what you've gone through. 

When my mom was going down hill after my dad died of a sudden heart attack, she had Alz/Dementia and in a care center. The nurse told me her spirit was already leaving her body despite her heart still beating. I remember being a little stumped as to how that could be. But what a relief that my mom would hopefully rid her body of the Alzheimer's disease and then gain a new body or whatever happens that might give her relief and then the hope of being with my mom the way she was before the disease.

And then a couple of years ago my FIL was dying of heart failure and I happened to have just had a reading from my niece who is a Medium. She mentioned my FIL right off the bat and said he was with her and sent a message for my husband and his family. I thought that strange since he was still alive, how could he deliver that message to my niece? But then I remembered my mom and how the nurse said she was already passing away and her spirit moving on before her death. 

I love to watch NDE's and Medium stories, especially since my faith in God and the afterlife has taken a toll. 

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I think NDEs happen but I suspect the vast majority of NDEs aren't "real." (That is the people aren't really encountering the beings, aren't outside of their body, etc. but are just hallucinating or dreaming) The effects may still be profound. But people have profound experiences on mushrooms or lsd as well. I think we should be pretty careful accepting something just because it's in an NDE.

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Just now, clarkgoble said:

I think NDEs happen but I suspect the vast majority of NDEs aren't "real." (That is the people aren't really encountering the beings, aren't outside of their body, etc. but are just hallucinating or dreaming) The effects may still be profound. But people have profound experiences on mushrooms or lsd as well. I think we should be pretty careful accepting something just because it's in an NDE.

Yep. It could very well be the brain's way of coping with impending death. That makes sense to me, anyway. 

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5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so sorry for all of your losses, so difficult to go through I'm sure. Glad you have these stories to refer to when you're missing your family members. I can't imagine what you've gone through. 

When my mom was going down hill after my dad died of a sudden heart attack, she had Alz/Dementia and in a care center. The nurse told me her spirit was already leaving her body despite her heart still beating. I remember being a little stumped as to how that could be. But what a relief that my mom would hopefully rid her body of the Alzheimer's disease and then gain a new body or whatever happens that might give her relief and then the hope of being with my mom the way she was before the disease.

And then a couple of years ago my FIL was dying of heart failure and I happened to have just had a reading from my niece who is a Medium. She mentioned my FIL right off the bat and said he was with her and sent a message for my husband and his family. I thought that strange since he was still alive, how could he deliver that message to my niece? But then I remembered my mom and how the nurse said she was already passing away and her spirit moving on before her death. 

I love to watch NDE's and Medium stories, especially since my faith in God and the afterlife has taken a toll. 

I'm not a fan of mediums. I have yet to meet one who wasn't just someone skilled in cold reading. 

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2 hours ago, Anijen said:

I remember reading something about a doctor who painted different type of symbols on the top of things high in the operating room. These symbols were out of sight and one would have to climb on top of something in order to see them. A patient who had an NDE in that operating room described those symbols, as her spirit allegedly rose and floated out of her body.

IIRC this was a study in which cards with words on them were placed on top of cabinets in operating rooms to see if patients could read them during any NDE . I think the experiment yielded no results. There are , however, accounts of patients who claimed an NDE in an operating room and were able to describe the actions and conversations doctors and nurses had while the patient was under.

NDEs are not the gospel. The gospel is about Christ, the resurrection and the atonement. Not many NDE experiences focus of that. They do give hope to a lot of people that there is an existence after this mortal life. Those NDEs that I have read about seem to emphasize the second great commandment .

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18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm reminded of a meeting I attended at the height of popularity of Betty Eadie's Embraced by the Light book. President Monson mentioned that he and his wife had been eating at a restaurant, and a woman approached and asked, "Have you read Embraced by the Light?" He replied that he was familiar with its contents. The woman then asked, "Is it the gospel?" He looked out at us over his reading glasses and said, "Do you see what we're up against? People think that's the gospel!"

A looseleaf copy of her narrative was passed around mission in 1993 (in Taiwan).  I read it at the time and did not make its connection to the published book until several years later.  The looseleaf version had several very specific "Mormon" features about it, and even included a postscript that was specifically addressed to members of the Church.  I can see, then, why some members were influenced by it.

It didn't have much of an impact on me.  It seemed a bit too . . . convenient.  Maudlin, even.  Plus it had references to demons and other things that seemed to jibe more with pop culture than with LDS doctrines.

Thanks,

-Smac

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Just now, smac97 said:

A looseleaf copy of her narrative was passed around mission in 1993 (in Taiwan).  I read it at the time and did not make its connection to the published book until several years later.  The looseleaf version had several very specific "Mormon" features about it, and even included a postscript that was specifically addressed to members of the Church.  I can see, then, why some members were influenced by it.

It didn't have much of an impact on me.  It seemed a bit too . . . convenient.  Maudlin, even.  Plus it had references to demons and other things that seemed to jibe more with pop culture than with LDS doctrines.

Thanks,

-Smac

We would have gotten in trouble for passing something like that around in our mission. I always had to ask permission from the MP to read anything beyond the scriptures and a few approved items (Talmadge, etc.). McConkie's Mormon Doctrine was strictly verboten.

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18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Yep. It could very well be the brain's way of coping with impending death. That makes sense to me, anyway. 

There's a lot of theories that it's not a coping mechanism but is due to waves going through the neurons due to oxygen deprivation and chemical reactions to it. So some think there are some physical parallels to what happens with lsd. I've not kept up with the neurology so I don't know how much the theories have shifted since I looked into it last. But a lot of the phenomenology of the experience probably are physical due to brain effects rather than psychological coping.

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Just now, clarkgoble said:

There's a lot of theories that it's not a coping mechanism but is due to waves going through the neurons due to oxygen deprivation and chemical reactions to it. So some think there are some physical parallels to what happens with lsd. I've not kept up with the neurology so I don't know how much the theories have shifted since I looked into it last. But a lot of the phenomenology of the experience probably are physical due to brain effects rather than psychological coping.

I guess I'm not separating brain effects from psychological coping. It seems reasonable to me that the brain could have evolved to produce experiences that mitigate the pain and fear when one nears death.

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My grandfather said he knew of the passing of his wife, one of his daughters, and my sister because they visited him in the spirit at the time of their passings, but before he had received the news they had passed. 

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