Jump to content
MorningStar

Questions about Excommunication

Recommended Posts

We have a man in my ward who was exed for child images, but he still does musical numbers. I thought that wasn't allowed, but maybe I'm wrong? If they can't be called on to give prayers, why should they be allowed to do musical numbers? I've been asked repeatedly to accompany him and I don't want to be alone with him. He had thousands of images including 2-year-olds being abused. I have daughters who are 3 and 9 years old and don't want any connections with him period. He also tried to meet up with minors online. In our state, it only counted as one count and I don't know what time he served, if any. I already had to tell the bishop to ask him not to touch women in the ward and to assume we all know what he did. He has gone out of his way to touch me. 😠  I don't want to embarrass him. I just don't want any sort of interaction. He sent a request to connect with me on messenger and I declined, so the music chair called me and asked me to play for him. 

Months before our ward boundaries changes, I was called as stake music chair. He emailed me immediately, told me all of his credentials, and asked if he could conduct a big event we were having. We already had a director and she said, "He's a nice man, but that's not going to work out." She didn't even bother to tell me about his history. I met him at rehearsal and I was creeped out. I saw him handing out samples at a store and I was more creeped out. I saw him again handing out samples and couldn't bring myself to walk down his aisle after our last exchange. I finally had a prompting to google him when I got home and it was horrifying. A few months later our boundaries changed and he was in our ward, so it's good that I got a heads up that way because apparently no one else was going to warn me. 

He thinks we should be buddies because we're both musicians. Nope! 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I referred to this as "child images" because the filter blocked it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

We have a man in my ward who was exed for child images, but he still does musical numbers. I thought that wasn't allowed, but maybe I'm wrong? If they can't be called on to give prayers, why should they be allowed to do musical numbers? I've been asked repeatedly to accompany him and I don't want to be alone with him. He had thousands of images including 2-year-olds being abused. I have daughters who are 3 and 9 years old and don't want any connections with him period. He also tried to meet up with minors online. In our state, it only counted as one count and I don't know what time he served, if any. I already had to tell the bishop to ask him not to touch women in the ward and to assume we all know what he did. He has gone out of his way to touch me. 😠  I don't want to embarrass him. I just don't want any sort of interaction. He sent a request to connect with me on messenger and I declined, so the music chair called me and asked me to play for him. 

Months before our ward boundaries changes, I was called as stake music chair. He emailed me immediately, told me all of his credentials, and asked if he could conduct a big event we were having. We already had a director and she said, "He's a nice man, but that's not going to work out." She didn't even bother to tell me about his history. I met him at rehearsal and I was creeped out. I saw him handing out samples at a store and I was more creeped out. I saw him again handing out samples and couldn't bring myself to walk down his aisle after our last exchange. I finally had a prompting to google him when I got home and it was horrifying. A few months later our boundaries changed and he was in our ward, so it's good that I got a heads up that way because apparently no one else was going to warn me. 

He thinks we should be buddies because we're both musicians. Nope! 

The handbook makes no mention of performing musical numbers.  Excommunicated members are not allowed to say prayers in meeting, talk in sacrament meeting, or hold callings.  Nothing about music.

It doesn’t sound right to me to allow him to perform, but I don’t know the people involved.  

Edited by ksfisher
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I think you may benefit from talking with your bishop about your concerns about this individual. It may also be helpful to discuss your request that he no interact with you in any way with the bishop and the individual together. 

Does this desire to not have contact include just those with this type of sin or all sexual sins?  I suspect you are already aware of God's teachings on our personal responsibility to forgive others, but it may be something to review. I think your response is very human and understandable, but it still is something to reflect upon. 

We each can find things that are completely repugnant in the behaviors of others and yet as disciples of Jesus Christ we are still directed in how we treat others. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you, all. I knew of a teenager years ago who was on probation and told she wasn't allowed to do any of those things during that time, but also wasn't allowed to do musical numbers. I would think the same would apply to excommunicated members. This man has played acapella several times because he can't find anyone to play for him. Well, last time he called and asked the day before. It went to my voice mail. I didn't call him back. 

When he wanted to conduct a big event, there were youth involved and he's absolutely not allowed to do that. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

We have a man in my ward who was exed for child images, but he still does musical numbers. I thought that wasn't allowed, but maybe I'm wrong? If they can't be called on to give prayers, why should they be allowed to do musical numbers? I've been asked repeatedly to accompany him and I don't want to be alone with him. He had thousands of images including 2-year-olds being abused. I have daughters who are 3 and 9 years old and don't want any connections with him period. He also tried to meet up with minors online. In our state, it only counted as one count and I don't know what time he served, if any. I already had to tell the bishop to ask him not to touch women in the ward and to assume we all know what he did. He has gone out of his way to touch me. 😠  I don't want to embarrass him. I just don't want any sort of interaction. He sent a request to connect with me on messenger and I declined, so the music chair called me and asked me to play for him. 

Months before our ward boundaries changes, I was called as stake music chair. He emailed me immediately, told me all of his credentials, and asked if he could conduct a big event we were having. We already had a director and she said, "He's a nice man, but that's not going to work out." She didn't even bother to tell me about his history. I met him at rehearsal and I was creeped out. I saw him handing out samples at a store and I was more creeped out. I saw him again handing out samples and couldn't bring myself to walk down his aisle after our last exchange. I finally had a prompting to google him when I got home and it was horrifying. A few months later our boundaries changed and he was in our ward, so it's good that I got a heads up that way because apparently no one else was going to warn me. 

He thinks we should be buddies because we're both musicians. Nope! 

I don't understand why he isn't locked up.

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't understand why he isn't locked up.

I believe he was for a while, but can't find any info about it. No follow-up article on what his sentence was. His son initially caught him, begged him to stop, and then when he got a job at a college, he started downloading lots of files and some co-workers caught him. He was fired. With that many files and trying to meet up with a minor, that should have been multiple counts. Laws need to change. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

It sounds like you are doing what you are supposed to do.  Just don't give up or let up.  Communicate the heck out of this; pray for support to communicate correctly.  DO pray to know what to say if you were to speak to the man directly, and perhaps say that to him in the presence of a safe person--bishop or otherwise.  So that you can let him know what your boundaries are in an unmistakable way (yet Christlike way).  Don't leave him guessing.

Persons who are unhealed with these situations don't quite see reality the way it is--in this case, recusing themselves from inappropriate situations.  They are still in their hells and chains and appetites. (And I'm not sure many will be able to fully heal in this lifetime.)  I would hope there are those who have the capacity to minister to such, but it is not unreasonable that many of us are not in that situation of having the knowledge and courage to do so, but would instead be/are ongoing traumatized by the behavior and energy of such an one.

The man who molested my sister repeatedly in a primary room is still out of jail and has been rebaptized.  Whenever I visited my home town, he would head straight for me to shake my hand.  I was always in a position of accepting his hand (big NO inside of me) or not (making a scene in the church hallway).  I have hated being in this position over the years, and have been retraumatized by his proximity; and I'm still not sure what is the best way to handle it.  I'm just beyond angry and sad that he doesn't get that part of his repentance needs to be to leave our family alone.  But he never will.  I don't think my sister has revisited, but I know that he would approach her again with a handshake too.  What is she supposed to do?  He was rebaptized before she left home.  Why is her church not a safe place?  By the way, this has been over 30 years ago now.

Anyway, I'm too close to this kind of situation to give good advice.  Pray, pray, pray for guidance.

Edited by Maidservant
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

That's so hard, Maidservant. I think we only have a couple men who play the piano and I feel like I should tell the music chair that he should coordinate schedules with one of them or perform acapella.  Another female pianist refuses to play for him too. She can't deal with it. 

My aunt was 14 when she was preyed on by a member of the ward. My family moved away from there and when the man called my dad to talk insurance, my dad said ,"You have a lot of nerve calling me!" He hung up on him and then the wife called back saying, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS HAS DONE TO MY FAMILY!!!" Cry me a river. 

As for this man in my ward, his wife makes comments that her husband doesn't have x, y, and z job because people are jealous of him or some nonsense. He had a great degree and then he threw it all away. He has no one to blame for the consequences but himself. 

Share this post


Link to post

You have every right to call him out on his behavior, maybe even a responsibility.  He's a predator, and will probably do anything he can get away with. :angry:

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

It's his current behavior that bothers me the most. If he had had an affair or something, I would probably want someone present during rehearsal, but I don't want to be alone with him and I often have to bring my girls to rehearse. I don't want him near them or knowing anything about them. I don't want them knowing him. I don't want them thinking he's a safe person. 

I can forgive him for what he did, but that doesn't excuse him from the consequence of not being trusted. I'm not mean to the man. I have been careful not to publicly humiliate him when he chooses to touch me, but part of me wants to tell him, "I know what you did and I don't want you touching me. And I know the bishop told you not to touch women and you're still doing it." Forgiveness doesn't mean lack of boundaries. 

I agree that forgiveness does not require us to forget the temptations or weaknesses of others. The rehabilitation of this type of behavior is very, very difficult if even possible. 

I still think you need to make it clear to the bishop and the individual that you are very protective of your children - as with all children - and that you do not seek or want any degree of interaction. If I was in a ward with such an individual I would want to have a very open conversation about what is and what is not acceptable behavior at church when children are involved or women alone. This should be understood that it is not meant to ostrisize the individual but to assist him to prevent any degree of temptation. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
54 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I agree that forgiveness does not require us to forget the temptations or weaknesses of others. The rehabilitation of this type of behavior is very, very difficult if even possible. 

I still think you need to make it clear to the bishop and the individual that you are very protective of your children - as with all children - and that you do not seek or want any degree of interaction. If I was in a ward with such an individual I would want to have a very open conversation about what is and what is not acceptable behavior at church when children are involved or women alone. This should be understood that it is not meant to ostrisize the individual but to assist him to prevent any degree of temptation. 

My family has been seeing a therapist off and on and she suggested that he use a different bathroom that isn't close to the primary. Bishop said there isn't another one, but AH HA! Yes there is. In the stake offices. Zero children go in there. I don't know if he told him to go use it or not. 

Oh yeah, our bishop also started a dad band and involved my husband and some other men, but not that man. They were playing at a ward party and he got in their faces about it and was really offended he wasn't involved. Bishop said, "Well, you weren't invited." No one enjoys being around the guy. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

 

The man who molested my sister repeatedly in a primary room is still out of jail and has been rebaptized.  Whenever I visited my home town, he would head straight for me to shake my hand.  I was always in a position of accepting his hand (big NO inside of me) or not (making a scene in the church hallway).  I have hated being in this position over the years, and have been retraumatized by his proximity; and I'm still not sure what is the best way to handle it.  I'm just beyond angry and sad that he doesn't get that part of his repentance needs to be to leave our family alone.  But he never will.  I don't think my sister has revisited, but I know that he would approach her again with a handshake too.  What is she supposed to do?  He was rebaptized before she left home.  Why is her church not a safe place?

Mace the guy....both you and MS.

Or a taser if you are concerned about hitting a bystander with overspray.

(Guess I am feeling rather aggressive tonight)

 

Edited by Calm
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

My family has been seeing a therapist off and on and she suggested that he use a different bathroom that isn't close to the primary. Bishop said there isn't another one, but AH HA! Yes there is. In the stake offices. Zero children go in there. I don't know if he told him to go use it or not. 

Oh yeah, our bishop also started a dad band and involved my husband and some other men, but not that man. They were playing at a ward party and he got in their faces about it and was really offended he wasn't involved. Bishop said, "Well, you weren't invited." No one enjoys being around the guy. 

There has got to be a happy medium where a state of penance is present on his part and a hand of fellowship, within specific boundaries, is set. 

Some of his reactions seem off to me. There is a lack of humility on his part. I think some people think everyone should forget about past wrongs - regardless of their nature - if they think they have been forgiven. While this may be the case in some areas they most often forget that there is a demand for reparations. Further, there must be an acknowledgment of specific weaknesses and temptations. 

He should never be put in a position where he could be alone with a child of any age. It is not a lack of confidence, but a wise position to prevent any degree of temptation.  After our son graduated he worked with INTERPOL; his area of expertise was coordinating with US police forces to apprehend and capture international child slavery and pornographers. He is convinced that the incidence of recidivism is too high among individuals who abuse children to ever allow them any access to children ever again. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Maidservant said:

 

The man who molested my sister repeatedly in a primary room is still out of jail and has been rebaptized.  Whenever I visited my home town, he would head straight for me to shake my hand.  I was always in a position of accepting his hand (big NO inside of me) or not (making a scene in the church hallway).  I have hated being in this position over the years, and have been retraumatized by his proximity; and I'm still not sure what is the best way to handle it.  I'm just beyond angry and sad that he doesn't get that part of his repentance needs to be to leave our family alone.  But he never will.  I don't think my sister has revisited, but I know that he would approach her again with a handshake too.  What is she supposed to do?  He was rebaptized before she left home.  Why is her church not a safe place?  By the way, this has been over 30 years ago now.

 

If it were me, Maidservant, the next time he approached me I'd tell him quietly but firmly and in no uncertain terms to stay away from me and my family, and if he continued to approach me I'd not have any alternative but to reject his advances publically, regardless of who might see or hear... You can pray for strength to forgive him, but there is absolutely no reason you have to continue to suffer this anger or sadness his advances bring upon you...  His repeated sexual molestation of your sister is much different than a majority of possible transgressions.

GG

Edited by Garden Girl
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I'm starting to wonder how safe church/religion is these days, have heard far too many stories of abuse.

Share this post


Link to post

Probably a lot safer than college campuses and hanging out with friends. Work places probably vary. 

These individuals don’t just show up at church and hide in their house the rest of the time, btw. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm starting to wonder how safe church/religion is these days, have heard far too many stories of abuse.

It happens everywhere. :( 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Home (domestic violence, not invasion), parking lots, public places like parks, and college campuses are apparently the most likely places. 

Edited by Calm

Share this post


Link to post

I just read an article and it said with no prior felonies, the most he could have received was 14 months. 14 months for thousands of images and engaging minors online in sexual conversation! Unreal! I talked to a friend in my ward last night and she had no clue. She said he told her he lost his job at the college he taught at because he didn't keep up with the programming languages. Total lie. 

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm starting to wonder how safe church/religion is these days, have heard far too many stories of abuse.

Blame it on the internet where any and all incidents are discussed and reported on to everyone. 
It has always been happening, but before the internet we just didn't know about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Blame it on the internet where any and all incidents are discussed and reported on to everyone. 
It has always been happening, but before the internet we just didn't know about it. 

I hate to even think about it but you're right, and I'm glad it's hit the internet, time to shed light on it. And warn all.

Share this post


Link to post
29 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I just read an article and it said with no prior felonies, the most he could have received was 14 months. 14 months for thousands of images and engaging minors online in sexual conversation! Unreal! I talked to a friend in my ward last night and she had no clue. She said he told her he lost his job at the college he taught at because he didn't keep up with the programming languages. Total lie. 

You can probably find out his birth date, and with that you can get his criminal history information (conviction data only) for a nominal fee. I am assuming that he was convicted in Washington state, right?  

Try this: https://fortress.wa.gov/wsp/watch/

Once you have that information, you may be able to determine if he is still under supervision by the Dept of Corrections.  In any case, you can contact DOC to find out if it is possible to discover if he is under supervision (likely, I think), what are the conditions of his supervision, and who his community corrections officer is.  If this gent is violating the conditions of his release (assuming he has not fulfilled his offender obligations), then his CCO will be interested to hear it.  Contact info for DOC can be found here: http://doc.wa.gov/about/contact.htm    I'd suggest sending an email or a phone call explaining the situation.

I have some familiarity with WSP and DOC, having worked as a computer programmer for both agencies in the past.  Unfortunately, my old contacts at either agency are long retired or have moved on, or else I'd be able to refer you to individuals.

Mike

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×