2 hour block

[Rain]

Wow. That is long.  I'll have to ask my son if they report what they did our just what they are doing.  

Edited July 5, 2018 by Rain

[ksfisher]

On 7/4/2018 at 12:21 AM, mfbukowski said:

i vote for plan C- that is a great idea!  It also goes well with the re-defined idea of "ministry" and would foster unity.

I think most people would just go home. 

[Prof]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Seriously, opening exercises for PH are torturous. Such a massive waste of time. Ours are consistently 30 minutes long, sometimes longer. Leaves about 20-25 minutes for class.

Cut out opening exercises and we're half-way there.

That's about what it is in my ward as well!

[Prof]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

It is Sooooo painfully long. And I promise I'm not exaggerating. I've taken to leaving church after Sunday school, getting an ice cream cone and chicken nuggets from McDonalds. Eating in my car. I take my time returning but still hear a number of announcements.

 

There is a Wendy's and an Arby close to my ward.

I may have to try this!

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree. It is excessive. Hopefully it's uncommon.

It is Sooooo painfully long. And I promise I'm not exaggerating. I've taken to leaving church after Sunday school, getting an ice cream cone and chicken nuggets from McDonalds. Eating in my car. I take my time returning but still hear a number of announcements.

Why does it take so long? It's an open mic. Everyone who wants to say anything about anything stands up and talks. We usually have 5-10 minutes worth of "missionary moments" which usually start something like this..."This isn't exactly a missionary moment, but..."

Every quorum president stands to share what they did last week and what they will do next week. It's basically business time for every quorum and auxiliary. Add to that an opening and closing hymn (All verses are required- quirk of the bishop).

I would go and get an ice cream, but that would be breaking the Sabbath. So, I just stay home the entire 3 hours.

[HappyJackWagon]

21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I would go and get an ice cream, but that would be breaking the Sabbath. So, I just stay home the entire 3 hours.

I disagree. I'm making the Sabbath a delight. McD's helps  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

I disagree. I'm making the Sabbath a delight. McD's helps  

Yeah, but it's kind of offset by the 2 hours you're stuck at church.

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't have any specifics, but I would like SS to be more like seminary and institute, where we can learn more about the context of scriptures, bible archeology, Hebrew and Greek translations, church history, etc.  I recognize that it would be hard to make it work with lay-teachers.

That was kind of my thought - to pattern it after institute. I think institute uses better materials. I have never taken seminary, but it seems most of our kids enjoyed it. However, I am not sure that a repeated seminary class is what SS should be.

I am not sure how people who have taken Institute can be satisfied in Gospel Doctrine year after year. Maybe big wards could have an advanced Gospel Doctrine class patterned after Institute. I know if my ward offered it, I would most assuredly be there.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't have any specifics, but I would like SS to be more like seminary and institute, where we can learn more about the context of scriptures, bible archeology, Hebrew and Greek translations, church history, etc.  I recognize that it would be hard to make it work with lay-teachers.

If lessons were primarily online, the problem of lay teachers could be avoided (power point presentations or videos with commentary).  Have a lesson and then open discussion at the end of it.  Or make them detailed texts like seminary and institute and then throw in stories to add interest through the teacher.  Save costs on manuals by having all online where available and members  have to ask for paper copies.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Calm

[omni]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:41 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

A ward I was previously in tried a “linger longer” after the meeting block. Bad idea! Kids were running around unsupervised. Pandemonium. Extremely irreverent and unseemly. It lasted one week. 

Come on Scott, linger lingers are great!  

This is literally the first time I’ve heard someone complain about them.  

It’s like complaining about puppies or chocolate...or chocolate puppies?

[Calm]

Linger longers are a problem if there are wards meeting in the building at the same time.  Makes sense to me that the last ward gets the linger longer for that year.  Maybe makes up for those who prefer morning meetings.  

In Utah and other places where driving back wouldn't be a hardship, they could experiment if it works on alternate weeks so everyone gets one Sunday a month or maybe for earlier meeting wards everyone adjourns to one or more closeby homes.  Assign who goes where so it is mixed up and people get to know each other, family with young kids could be assigned to homes that are set up for them.  Or people could take turn being the babysitters.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, omni said:

Come on Scott, linger lingers are great!  

This is literally the first time I’ve heard someone complain about them.  

It’s like complaining about puppies or chocolate...or chocolate puppies?

I know of the one I experienced. Never again. Not for me. I’ll go home for lunch and a nap. 

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:41 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

A ward I was previously in tried a “linger longer” after the meeting block. Bad idea! Kids were running around unsupervised. Pandemonium. Extremely irreverent and unseemly. It lasted one week. 

We used to do regular Linger Longer and/ Break the Fast activities after church. I agree that things were a little rowdier than we're usually accustomed to on a Sunday, but I found that what it lacked in perceived reverence was made up for by building a ward family where people had chances to get to know each other outside of a classroom/chapel setting. The ward members truly grew to love each other. The ward was the social center of the lives of the members (for good or bad), and this was far outside of Utah. It wasn't perfect but it sure had its benefits.

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

We used to do regular Linger Longer and/ Break the Fast activities after church. I agree that things were a little rowdier than we're usually accustomed to on a Sunday, but I found that what it lacked in perceived reverence was made up for by building a ward family where people had chances to get to know each other outside of a classroom/chapel setting. The ward members truly grew to love each other. The ward was the social center of the lives of the members (for good or bad), and this was far outside of Utah. It wasn't perfect but it sure had its benefits.

The only time I remember doing a "linger longer" was in a non-married student ward at BYU, where it worked well. The logistics of doing it with a ward full of families with kids would be much more difficult, but I can see how it would build a ward family. I miss the days when they had church activities just for fun and fellowship. We did things like a one-act play competition, a massive "dance festival" at the Rose Bowl, and our annual YM/YW "opening social" at the beach in Malibu. Now it all has to have a priesthood purpose. But I would think building a ward community/family is a priesthood purpose, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've said before that people are generally reluctant to leave their religion if it is a meaningful and important part of their lives. Seems to me too much of what is done these days has been shoe-horned into correlated gospel utility, making meetings and activities more about obligation than engendering commitment. 

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

We used to do regular Linger Longer and/ Break the Fast activities after church. I agree that things were a little rowdier than we're usually accustomed to on a Sunday, but I found that what it lacked in perceived reverence was made up for by building a ward family where people had chances to get to know each other outside of a classroom/chapel setting. The ward members truly grew to love each other. The ward was the social center of the lives of the members (for good or bad), and this was far outside of Utah. It wasn't perfect but it sure had its benefits.

I have found that outside of Utah, Sabbath standards are looser mostly because most members are converts. 

I cannot even imagine what a "rowdy" church activity would be. Loud laughter?

 

[Alan]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I have found that outside of Utah, Sabbath standards are looser mostly because most members are converts. 

I cannot even imagine what a "rowdy" church activity would be. Loud laughter?

 

My experience of the Sabbath in Utah is that it is very lax indeed. All the Walmart's are busy, restaurants are open, and I've even heard of church meetings being cut short to accommodate the Super Bowl.

Generally, Sabbath keeping here is much better in my experience.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Alan said:

My experience of the Sabbath in Utah is that it is very lax indeed. All the Walmart's are busy, restaurants are open, and I've even heard of church meetings being cut short to accommodate the Super Bowl.

Generally, Sabbath keeping here is much better in my experience.

I was in Rexburg, Idaho, the last couple of weekends visiting our new grandson. In contrast to my past experiences living in Provo, Rexburg was absolutely dead on Sundays. A lot of businesses were closed, and the stores were pretty empty. I had to go to Walmart to get some baby supplies, and it wasn't crowded at all, and most of the people there seemed to be Utahns on vacation.

Growing up in Southern California, we weren't allowed to go out and play with the neighborhood kids on Sundays, so we read books or watched TV at home. My parents have a swimming pool in the backyard, but we weren't allowed to use it on Sundays, nor were we allowed to play outside. My dad's only violation of the Sabbath was that we almost always got bagels and cream cheese from the Jewish bakery down the street from our church. My dad would say we weren't breaking the Sabbath because "it's not their Sabbath." 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

The only time I remember doing a "linger longer" was in a non-married student ward at BYU, where it worked well. The logistics of doing it with a ward full of families with kids would be much more difficult, but I can see how it would build a ward family. I miss the days when they had church activities just for fun and fellowship. We did things like a one-act play competition, a massive "dance festival" at the Rose Bowl, and our annual YM/YW "opening social" at the beach in Malibu. Now it all has to have a priesthood purpose. But I would think building a ward community/family is a priesthood purpose, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've said before that people are generally reluctant to leave their religion if it is a meaningful and important part of their lives. Seems to me too much of what is done these days has been shoe-horned into correlated gospel utility, making meetings and activities more about obligation than engendering commitment. 

As the YW president in my ward, I push back a lot on the idea that every activity has to have a specific purpose.  Sometimes, an activity is just about having fun together!  And for youth especially, activities need to be fun so that they come, and bond with other members their age.  That doesn't mean we don't do service activities or stuff that has a purpose, (we do an equal amount of all types) but sometimes things sound better on paper than they work in real life.  An agenda full of 'priesthood purpose' activities that you get two youth to attend isn't worth very much.

 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, bluebell said:

As the YW president in my ward, I push back a lot on the idea that every activity has to have a specific purpose.  Sometimes, an activity is just about having fun together!  And for youth especially, activities need to be fun so that they come, and bond with other members their age.  That doesn't mean we don't do service activities or stuff that has a purpose, (we do an equal amount of all types) but sometimes things sound better on paper than they work in real life.  An agenda full of 'priesthood purpose' activities that you get two youth to attend isn't worth very much.

That makes me happy. When we lived in Texas, the stake president seemed to be hell-bent on ridding youth activities of fun. I know he was an extreme example, but I've seen other leaders follow a similar course. I'm glad you are making a positive difference for your young women. 

[HappyJackWagon]

40 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That makes me happy. When we lived in Texas, the stake president seemed to be hell-bent on ridding youth activities of fun. I know he was an extreme example, but I've seen other leaders follow a similar course. I'm glad you are making a positive difference for your young women. 

Yeah, in my area we have an "activity filter" through which all activities must qualify before being held. There must be a spiritual purpose to every activity. I know it's church, but sheesh. Right now we have about 6 out of 25 YW and 12 out of 28 YM attend weekly mutual activities. Just a few years ago, before this activity filter was taken too seriously, we had more like a 90% participation weekly. There's a lot to be said for creating and nurturing a strong community, regardless of a stated spiritual purpose.

Quote

MFBUKOWSKI-

I have found that outside of Utah, Sabbath standards are looser mostly because most members are converts. 

I cannot even imagine what a "rowdy" church activity would be. Loud laughter?

Oh, things can get pretty rowdy. I agree with Scott on that. Any time you have 50-100 primary children doing anything, it can get rambunctious. But our easy solution to this was to have kids activities in another room. So they could eat something and then have fun which allowed most of the parents to be able to mingle and enjoy each other.

In my area, most everyone is a transplant from the west. Very few converts. I think in many ways our people can be more rigid than those living in Utah so I always appreciate little ways to bust up that ultraorthodox mentality.

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That makes me happy. When we lived in Texas, the stake president seemed to be hell-bent on ridding youth activities of fun. I know he was an extreme example, but I've seen other leaders follow a similar course. I'm glad you are making a positive difference for your young women. 

Sometimes I think that these types just haven't served with the youth enough.  We had a bishopric counselor in my ward that (though an awesome guy) was very much about 'purpose' and not wasting the budget on silly activities and he would voice his opinion during bishop/youth council meetings (and was routinely overridden by the bishop in a nice way).  A few months ago he was released as a counselor and called as the YM president and he's changed his tune a bit. 

I was one who used to believe that we shouldn't bring treats or have snacks all the time and I've definitely softened my stance on that since serving with the youth.  I still don't think our budgets should be mostly going towards DQ on Wednesday nights but if a kid will come to a service activity because they know they'll get donuts while they are there, then in my view that's a small price to pay.   

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yeah, in my area we have an "activity filter" through which all activities must qualify before being held. There must be a spiritual purpose to every activity. I know it's church, but sheesh. Right now we have about 6 out of 25 YW and 12 out of 28 YM attend weekly mutual activities. Just a few years ago, before this activity filter was taken too seriously, we had more like a 90% participation weekly. There's a lot to be said for creating and nurturing a strong community, regardless of a stated spiritual purpose.

 

Sometimes we just have to be reminded that the sabbath was created for man and not man for the sabbath.  Wednesday night activities exist to benefit the youth, which can't happen if the youth aren't there.      

[Hamba Tuhan]

My experience as a bishopric member helping a deacon quorums president plan with a purpose.

DQP: I wish we could get X to come to church.

HT: Do you think he would come to an activity?

DQP: Maybe ... if he liked it.

HT: What kinds of activities does he like?

DQP: He likes touch rugby.

HT: Well, then why don't you plan to have touch rugby for mutual next week and then invite this boy.

DQP: I can do that!

HT: And ask other boys in the quorum to invite those they know too.

DQP: OK.

Result: 12 boys at a deacons quorum activity. This shouldn't be hard. And it should definitely be fun!

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yeah, in my area we have an "activity filter" through which all activities must qualify before being held. There must be a spiritual purpose to every activity. I know it's church, but sheesh. Right now we have about 6 out of 25 YW and 12 out of 28 YM attend weekly mutual activities. Just a few years ago, before this activity filter was taken too seriously, we had more like a 90% participation weekly. There's a lot to be said for creating and nurturing a strong community, regardless of a stated spiritual purpose.

Oh, things can get pretty rowdy. I agree with Scott on that. Any time you have 50-100 primary children doing anything, it can get rambunctious. But our easy solution to this was to have kids activities in another room. So they could eat something and then have fun which allowed most of the parents to be able to mingle and enjoy each other.

In my area, most everyone is a transplant from the west. Very few converts. I think in many ways our people can be more rigid than those living in Utah so I always appreciate little ways to bust up that ultraorthodox mentality.

That sounds awful. People have very different ideas about what is appropriate. Planning the Ward Christmas party is a minefield of differing expectations.  With youth activities, I like the mix of purpose and fun but most of them should be things that can not happen on Sundays...more hands on. The youth have Seminary and Sunday church and should be doing other things during the week.

[mnn727]

On 7/5/2018 at 1:41 PM, bluebell said:

I don't have any specifics, but I would like SS to be more like seminary and institute, where we can learn more about the context of scriptures, bible archeology, Hebrew and Greek translations, church history, etc.  I recognize that it would be hard to make it work with lay-teachers.

Out in the real world (outside t he Mormon corridor) we have lay teachers for seminary - they do a good job, but its 5 days a week.