Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit (Hearing Schedule)

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

In my personal experience, when the police need to be called, the helpline attorney instructs (not just suggests) the bishop that he will do it for him. Over and over they stress they don't want bishops to be involved and on record with it. They want the bishops to be completely shielded from subpoena, testimony, etc. And when they call the police, they follow-up and keep the bishops posted. Sometimes, when there is repeated attempts by police to contact the bishop, they get involved again and make it clear that all queries and questions are to be directed to them. My stake president and I once both had to keep referring police to the attorney and reminding them that counsel had instructed us to direct all questions to them. More recently, I was contacted by local police and the FBI about a ward member (for a non-abuse thing), and the helpline attorney wanted me to have nothing to do with that --- not even filling out a lengthy, detailed questionnaire. He said that filling out even parts of it could constitute waiving clergy privilege and that I should simply send him the questionnaire and direct all communication to him (i.e., not to say a word, other than that I have been instructed by counsel to direct everything to them), and that "we don't want your name on anything connected with this. Let us do all communication with the authorities."

What the Church doesn't want is for bishops to simply "call the police right away," knee-jerk style, because of social and press pressure, high-profile legal things like Denson v. LDS Church, etc. As someone who has had experience with the hotline over eight years, I'm grateful that I can call and be instructed how to proceed (often resulting in them taking it over and taking it completely out of my hands), without it becoming a matter of "wow, this could be one of those land mines being discussed in the press, better just call the police and turn everything in so I don't get Vernoned down the road ." What a mess that would actually be!

I think i'll continue to advise me and mine to go to the police when they know of illegal activity that needs be reported.  They can surely talk to the Bishop, I suppose, but there's no need to let him handle it through the attorneys who are trying to protect the Church.  If I were the bishop and some member was intent on telling me about something illegal rather than the police, I'd say, "go tell the police" and leave the Church's attorneys out of it.  

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think i'll continue to advise me and mine to go to the police when they know of illegal activity that needs be reported.  They can surely talk to the Bishop, I suppose, but there's no need to let him handle it through the attorneys who are trying to protect the Church.  If I were the bishop and some member was intent on telling me about something illegal rather than the police, I'd say, "go tell the police" and leave the Church's attorneys out of it.  

Good thing you aren't a bishop. 

you could be putting all kinds of people at risk because you don't want to know. 

 

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think i'll continue to advise me and mine to go to the police when they know of illegal activity that needs be reported. 

They are always able to do that. And always have been.

They can surely talk to the Bishop, I suppose, but there's no need to let him handle it through the attorneys who are trying to protect the Church.  If I were the bishop and some member was intent on telling me about something illegal rather than the police, I'd say, "go tell the police" and leave the Church's attorneys out of it. 

I'll go you one better than that. If someone confessed something to me like molestation, etc., I would ask them if they are really sorry and really want to repent and begin to make things right. If the answer to that is yes, then I would ask them if they are willing to go with me to the police station and turn themselves in. If the answer is no, then I would tell them that I will turn them in if they won't --- but that it should be them. Especially if they want to actually repent of this. 

That puts me at odds with what the Church counsels leaders to do, and it breaches confidentiality. But it is what I would do if presented with a direct confession of something like that. I wouldn't just rely on others to "go tell the police." 

[Danzo]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

They are always able to do that. And always have been.

 

 

I'll go you one better than that. If someone confessed something to me like molestation, etc., I would ask them if they are really sorry and really want to repent and begin to make things right. If the answer to that is yes, then I would ask them if they are willing to go with me to the police station and turn themselves in. If the answer is no, then I would tell them that I will turn them in if they won't --- but that it should be them. Especially if they want to actually repent of this. 

That puts me at odds with what the Church counsels leaders to do, and it breaches confidentiality. But it is what I would do if presented with a direct confession of something like that. I wouldn't just rely on others to "go tell the police." 

 

How often is it a direct confession, as apposed to suspicious behavior, or accusation just something being off?

The police often cannot do anything absent direct evidence.  The bishop can still take steps to protect his ward even without an indictment or a conviction.

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, Danzo said:

How often is it a direct confession, as apposed to suspicious behavior, or accusation just something being off?

The police often cannot do anything absent direct evidence.  The bishop can still take steps to protect his ward even without an indictment or a conviction.

This very rarely happens. When it happened to me once, the legal wheels turned extremely fast. He confessed to sexting his niece in another state, and the girl had given the phone to her mother and the mom gave it to the police and told him he needed to go see his bishop. I told him to cooperate fully with the police, and they were there within hours. He waved his Miranda rights and gave a taped confession, and is serving a 17 year term without possibility of parole (he confessed to other things to the police). 

If I had it to do over again (it was years ago, and I was pretty inexperienced), I would have had him turn himself in. In retrospect, I'm very happy that police between states acted so quickly. They showed up at his house and asked him to go with them for questioning. 

[JulieM]

15 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 

How often is it a direct confession, as apposed to suspicious behavior, or accusation just something being off?

The police often cannot do anything absent direct evidence. 

They will always open an investigation (especially if a minor is involved).  No direct evidence is needed (only an accusation or claim).  Also the person under suspicion will not be allowed to be alone with them or near them (and can have to leave their home if they’re a father or mother).  At least that’s what happens in my state while it’s being investigated.

Edited July 19, 2018 by JulieM

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

They will always open an investigation (especially if a minor is involved).  No direct evidence is needed (only an accusation or claim).  Also the person under suspicion will not be allowed to be alone with them or near them (and can have to leave their home if they’re a father or mother).  At least that’s what happens in my state while it’s being investigated.

Not always, and even then,  there  isn't always a conviction.  Cases are often closed do to lack of evidence.  CPS is notorious in some parts for reuniting children with their abusers and using their resources to go after innocent people.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Danzo

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

In my personal experience, when the police need to be called, the helpline attorney instructs (not just suggests) the bishop that he will do it for him. Over and over they stress they don't want bishops to be involved and on record with it. They want the bishops to be completely shielded from subpoena, testimony, etc. And when they call the police, they follow-up and keep the bishops posted. Sometimes, when there is repeated attempts by police to contact the bishop, they get involved again and make it clear that all queries and questions are to be directed to them. My stake president and I once both had to keep referring police to the attorney and reminding them that counsel had instructed us to direct all questions to them. More recently, I was contacted by local police and the FBI about a ward member (for a non-abuse thing), and the helpline attorney wanted me to have nothing to do with that --- not even filling out a lengthy, detailed questionnaire. He said that filling out even parts of it could constitute waiving clergy privilege and that I should simply send him the questionnaire and direct all communication to him (i.e., not to say a word, other than that I have been instructed by counsel to direct everything to them), and that "we don't want your name on anything connected with this. Let us do all communication with the authorities." This resulted in law enforcement trying to get me to do it, after being told I would not be ("C'mon, you're making this out to be a bigger deal than it is. Can't you just fill this out?"). I had to repeat that counsel has instructed me not to and to refer it to them. 

What the Church doesn't want is for bishops to simply "call the police right away," knee-jerk style, because of social and press pressure, high-profile legal things like Denson v. LDS Church, etc. As someone who has had experience with the hotline over eight years, I'm grateful that I can call and be instructed how to proceed (often resulting in them taking it over and taking it completely out of my hands), without it becoming a matter of "wow, this could be one of those land mines being discussed in the press, better just call the police and turn everything in so I don't get Vernoned down the road ." What a mess that would actually be!

This allows, imo, bishops to fully concentrate on helping the victims themselves and in the case of repentant perpetrators, going through the steps of repentance, without the worry of how it will affect them (the bishops) personally.  Since bishops have families, it is not as if they can be free from the worry of being held financially liable and their loved ones suffering because of that.  I think this best so that bishops can be fully committed in their supportive relationships because showing they care and value the individual is essential to having a positive impact.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Not always,

Yes, always (in my state at least).  If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse, they begin investigating (always when a minor is involved).  It may not go to the DA or to trial, but an investigation takes place.  I’d be surprised if this wasn’t what the procedure is in every state. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by JulieM

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

They are always able to do that. And always have been.

 

 

I'll go you one better than that. If someone confessed something to me like molestation, etc., I would ask them if they are really sorry and really want to repent and begin to make things right. If the answer to that is yes, then I would ask them if they are willing to go with me to the police station and turn themselves in. If the answer is no, then I would tell them that I will turn them in if they won't --- but that it should be them. Especially if they want to actually repent of this. 

That puts me at odds with what the Church counsels leaders to do, and it breaches confidentiality. But it is what I would do if presented with a direct confession of something like that. I wouldn't just rely on others to "go tell the police." 

👏👍

[kllindley]

46 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, always (in my state at least).  If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse, they begin investigating (always when a minor is involved).  It may not go to the DA or to trial, but an investigation takes place.  I’d be surprised if this wasn’t what the procedure is in every state. 

That is horrific! What a Draconian state. Have they no concern at all for the safety and well-being of the children? That procedural standard is irresponsible. 

As a mandated reporter in my State, we are instructed to report concerns to CPS and not to police. All reports to CPS are documented, but not necessarily investigated. CPS evaluates the need for law enforcement involvement weighed against the risk of trauma and harm to the child. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

They are always able to do that. And always have been.

 

 

I'll go you one better than that. If someone confessed something to me like molestation, etc., I would ask them if they are really sorry and really want to repent and begin to make things right. If the answer to that is yes, then I would ask them if they are willing to go with me to the police station and turn themselves in. If the answer is no, then I would tell them that I will turn them in if they won't --- but that it should be them. Especially if they want to actually repent of this. 

That puts me at odds with what the Church counsels leaders to do, and it breaches confidentiality. But it is what I would do if presented with a direct confession of something like that. I wouldn't just rely on others to "go tell the police." 

A bishop is, among other things, an agent for the Church of Jesus Christ. I am not altogether acquainted with policy in this matter. But I would simply say if one is not willing to abide by Church policy, one ought not be acting in that capacity. 

[jkwilliams]

23 minutes ago, kllindley said:

That is horrific! What a Draconian state. Have they no concern at all for the safety and well-being of the children? That procedural standard is irresponsible. 

As a mandated reporter in my State, we are instructed to report concerns to CPS and not to police. All reports to CPS are documented, but not necessarily investigated. CPS evaluates the need for law enforcement involvement weighed against the risk of trauma and harm to the child. 

I think you missed the part where she said,  “If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse ...” Are you saying that it’s draconian for the police to investigate abuse when it is reported to them? What a strange thing to object to!

[kllindley]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think you missed the part where she said,  “If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse ...” Are you saying that it’s draconian for the police to investigate abuse when it is reported to them? What a strange thing to object to!

Yes. If any third party can call and report abuse which immediately and in every case begins an investigation which results in children being removed from the home, regardless of the outcome or reliability of the accusation, then yes. I call that evil and irresponsible.

Quote

They will always open an investigation (especially if a minor is involved).  No direct evidence is needed (only an accusation or claim).  Also the person under suspicion will not be allowed to be alone with them or near them (and can have to leave their home if they’re a father or mother).  At least that’s what happens in my state while it’s being investigated.

How many families have you had to work with after a divorcing spouse or grandparent falsely accuses the other parent of sexual abuse? Do you have any idea how much more destructive it is if the accused parent is automatically treated as guilty? I think it's horrible to not carefully evaluate the source of the accusation and thereby risk unnecessary trauma to the children. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by kllindley

[USU78]

56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A bishop is, among other things, an agent for the Church of Jesus Christ. I am not altogether acquainted with policy in this matter. But I would simply say if one is not willing to abide by Church policy, one ought not be acting in that capacity. 

Volunteer agents are not the same as compensated agents: one cannot expect the same from level of compliance with the principal's policies.

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

Yes, always (in my state at least).  If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse, they begin investigating (always when a minor is involved).  It may not go to the DA or to trial, but an investigation takes place.  I’d be surprised if this wasn’t what the procedure is in every state. 

And if it doesn't go to trial? If there is no conviction? If the sheriff gets lazy and doesn't follow up because he is near retirement age (as happened recently in my county)? Calling the police usually doesn't end the problem. Sometimes it can make things worse.  Sometimes the cops don't do anything.   A bishop can take action where the state can or will do nothing.

[JulieM]

21 minutes ago, Danzo said:

And if it doesn't go to trial? If there is no conviction? 

Then you’ve erred on the side of protecting a minor or potential abuse victim.  At least there’s been an investigation.

Edited July 20, 2018 by JulieM

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

Yes, always (in my state at least).  If someone calls the police and reports sexual abuse, they begin investigating (always when a minor is involved).  It may not go to the DA or to trial, but an investigation takes place.  I’d be surprised if this wasn’t what the procedure is in every state. 

I don't live in America and so therefore don't live in your state, but I sincerely doubt some of what you've written above. I work for our shadow minister for youth. We get annual data on child concern reports. Very, very few of these reports are 'investigated'. They are initially looked at by someone in care and protection -- not the police -- who is trained to make an assessment, and the vast majority of them are deemed not requiring formal investigation. We get break-downs of how many reports were assessed as needing action, and of those how many turned out to be substantiated concerns. One of the problems facing care and protection systems across the developed world is the flood of child concern reports that has been generated over the past few years. No government can possibly investigate every single one; that's why they have mechanisms for initial screening and assessment.

[JulieM]

27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't live in America and so therefore don't live in your state, but I sincerely doubt some of what you've written above. I work for our shadow minister for youth. We get annual data on child concern reports. Very, very few of these reports are 'investigated'. They are initially looked at by someone in care and protection -- not the police -- who is trained to make an assessment, and the vast majority of them are deemed not requiring formal investigation. We get break-downs of how many reports were assessed as needing action, and of those how many turned out to be substantiated concerns. One of the problems facing care and protection systems across the developed world is the flood of child concern reports that has been generated over the past few years. No government can possibly investigate every single one; that's why they have mechanisms for initial screening and assessment.

If a minor is involved, they always open at least an investigation in my state.  No exceptions.

[Danzo]

40 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Then you’ve erred on the side of protecting a minor or potential abuse victim.  At least there’s been an investigation.

Relying solely upon the government is an error, but not on the side of the minor. The streets, foster care, group homes and prisons are full of examples of the results of relying on the government to protect the welfare of children.

A child being protected by the 'system' does not have a good prognosis.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Danzo

[kllindley]

6 minutes ago, JulieM said:

If a minor is involved, they always open at least an investigation in my state.  No exceptions.

CFR. 

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, kllindley said:

CFR. 

They always send officers, ask questions and investigate any claim of sexual abuse involving a minor.

I’m only on my phone but here’s a couple of links describing the process:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.revealnews.org/article/reporting-to-police-a-guide-for-victims-of-sexual-abuse/amp/

Scroll down to “What happens after making initial call to the police”.

Here’s more about the process.  They never ignore a report of a suspicion of sexual abuse involving a minor.  Just a phone call would bring an officer out to take a report and ask questions and then investigate.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/162425.pdf

”The role of law enforcement in child abuse cases is to investigate to determine if a violation of criminal law occurred, identify and apprehend the offender, and file appropriate criminal charges.“

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/usermanuals/law/

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by JulieM

[Calm]

https://www.stopitnow.org/ohc-content/what-might-happen-after-a-report-is-filed

Quote

Once a report of child abuse has been made, the protective authorities (either child protective services or the police), decides whether or not to follow up the report. When a report is “screened in,” it means that protective authorities will follow up with an investigation. When it is “screened out,” it means that the report will not be investigated.

Reports can be “screened out”

When a report is “screened out," no action is taken, or the report is transferred to a more appropriate agency. Usually, a report is “screened out” when:

There’s not enough information on which to base an investigation

CPS or police judge the information to be inaccurate or false

The information in the report doesn’t meet definitions for child abuse or neglect used by the protective authorities

Quote

Child protective service agencies investigate about 55% of the child sexual abuse incidents reported to them. The rest are “screened out” for lack of adequate information or for other reasons. Of those reports investigated, only a portion meets the criteria for “substantiated.” 

https://www.d2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Statistics_6_Reporting.pdf

Edited July 20, 2018 by Calm

[JulieM]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://www.stopitnow.org/ohc-content/what-might-happen-after-a-report-is-filed

 

Thanks Calm.  They always send officers to question and investigate (at least in my state).  I have a brother who is a police officer and I will call him tomorrow just to confirm but that’s what he’s told me.  They may not open an official case or send it on to the DA, but they never ignore a report of abuse (especially of a minor). All involved are always questioned.

I am actually surprised anyone wouldn’t be in favor of this taking place to protect children and minors.

Edited July 20, 2018 by JulieM

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Thanks Calm.  They always send officers to question and investigate (at least in my state).  I have a brother who is a police officer and I will call him tomorrow just to confirm but that’s what he’s told me.  They may not open an official case or send it on to the DA, but they never ignore a report of abuse (especially of a minor). All involved are always questioned.

 

Correct.  I work with abuse cases and I know that officers are always sent out to investigate (and take a report) when they receive a call and  a minor is the alleged victim.  It would be completely negligent to do otherwise.  I'm shocked anyone is questioning this is standard procedure after suspected abuse has been reported.  Who on earth would think it would be ok for it not to be investigated?  Is there anyone here who really wants to step forward and state this shouldn't take place?

Edited July 20, 2018 by ALarson