Update on McKenna Denson Lawsuit (Hearing Schedule)

[Duncan]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

I loved the MTC for the most part. Ed Pineda was MTC president and I remember both he and his wife, Patricia, from those days. I don't remember my branch president at all. 

The only trouble I had was with my companion. In those days, as a type 1 diabetic, I had to eat breakfast. She refused to go most days. I got permission to go without her. 

 

You mean Ed J. Pinegar?!

[Rain]

 

 

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

You mean Ed J. Pinegar?!

Yes! Ugh. Auto correct. I even typed it wrong and corrected it so I know I typed it in right. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Rain

[clarkgoble]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:57 PM, jkwilliams said:

Several times while I was in the MTC, he told the story of a vision he had had, where the MTC was surrounded by black demons as far as the eye could see. But there was a ring of angels protecting the MTC and keeping the demons out. Every time we had an impure thought or touched ourselves, we were letting one of those demons in and driving away the spirit. After all these years, learning what he was doing in the basement was pretty shocking.

I can't find the source but I'm reasonably sure he's plagiarizing an earlier account if he was saying that. That said I do think Satan in particular goes after the MTC. When he gets someone like Bishop he can hurt many, many more people - which of course is his aim. I had a roommate who worked at the MTC who turned out to be a peeping tom. We confronted his fiancé about it since that's a pretty red flag for a horrible marriage. Of course the peeping tom was not at all happy about it. Turned out he had quite a few arrests for lewd behavior.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

We confronted his fiancé about it since that's a pretty red flag for a horrible marriage. Of course the peeping tom was not at all happy about it. 

Please assure us that the fiancée heeded your warning!

Quote

I do think Satan in particular goes after the MTC.

As do I. I just don't think he does it from the outside.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Please assure us that the fiancée heeded your warning!

No idea. By then I'd broken contact with him. But we felt a duty to let her know once we saw the arrest report on him. At that point it's up to her - she has the information to recognize the problem.

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As do I. I just don't think he does it from the outside.

The question is whether they are trying to get in. I tend to assume, just assuming some people on campus are evil, that they're already there. The story I'd heard was sons of perdition trying to get in but angels protecting the campus. But for various reasons I'm a bit skeptical of these accounts. It sounds like Bishop was making use of these folk stories and claiming them for himself.

Edited June 25, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Rain]

 

9 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

No idea. By then I'd broken contact with him. But we felt a duty to let her know once we saw the arrest report on him. At that point it's up to her - she has the information to recognize the problem.

The question is whether they are trying to get in. I tend to assume, just assuming some people on campus are evil, that they're already there. The story I'd heard was sons of perdition trying to get in but angels protecting the campus. But for various reasons I'm a bit skeptical of these accounts. It sounds like Bishop was making use of these folk stories and claiming them for himself.

It sounds a little like the Logan temple story.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

It sounds like Bishop was making use of these folk stories and claiming them for himself.

It makes me sad that people feel the need to do this. Aren't they having enough of their own valid experiences?

[clarkgoble]

48 minutes ago, Rain said:

It sound a little like the Logan temple story.

There's several temple stories like the one I think you're referring to. They're so similar that it's hard for me to believe Bishop wasn't using them for his own means. That said I've heard of accounts of angels and sons of perdition from people first hand related to the MTC or events on their mission. These were trustworthy sorts so I'm more loath to dismiss them. It's just that Bishop's account sounds much more like plagiarism.

That said I think false memory syndrome is such that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find people recounting other people's stories as their own or at least confounding their own memories. I even had it happened to me once much to my surprise. (Something relatively banal - I remembered seeing Jennifer Garner and Ben Affleck at a restaurant I often go to in San Francisco when I'm there. It was actually something my business partner had told me of that happened when I wasn't with him. It happened after a period of sleep deprivation due to a new baby but shows how memories can be distorted when saved or resaved. (Each time you remember something it's re-stored but often transfigured in that restorage in long term memory) Memory is an odd thing. The more distant the memory the more reason to distrust it IMO.

Edited June 25, 2018 by clarkgoble

[sunstoned]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:57 PM, jkwilliams said:

Several times while I was in the MTC, he told the story of a vision he had had, where the MTC was surrounded by black demons as far as the eye could see. But there was a ring of angels protecting the MTC and keeping the demons out. Every time we had an impure thought or touched ourselves, we were letting one of those demons in and driving away the spirit. After all these years, learning what he was doing in the basement was pretty shocking.

I am not sure what he thought to achieve with a story such as this.  Something like this would not motivate me.  It is a little bit scary. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I am not sure what he thought to achieve with a story such as this.  Something like this would not motivate me.

Agreed. When I heard it repeated at the MTC (by another missionary), it had zero motivating influence on me. I didn't believe it because it didn't ring 'true' in any familiar way.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

There's several temple stories like the one I think you're referring to. They're so similar that it's hard for me to believe Bishop wasn't using them for his own means. That said I've heard of accounts of angels and sons of perdition from people first hand related to the MTC or events on their mission. These were trustworthy sorts so I'm more loath to dismiss them. It's just that Bishop's account sounds much more like plagiarism.

That said I think false memory syndrome is such that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find people recounting other people's stories as their own or at least confounding their own memories. I even had it happened to me once much to my surprise. (Something relatively banal - I remembered seeing Jennifer Garner and Ben Affleck at a restaurant I often go to in San Francisco when I'm there. It was actually something my business partner had told me of that happened when I wasn't with him. It happened after a period of sleep deprivation due to a new baby but shows how memories can be distorted when saved or resaved. (Each time you remember something it's re-stored but often transfigured in that restorage in long term memory) Memory is an odd thing. The more distant the memory the more reason to distrust it IMO.

I've had some weird experiences with memory myself, but in my case it is things that actually happened that I don't remember at all.  Possibly because I was so self-centered and oblivious?  I don't know, but...

My 14-year-old brother got in trouble messing with our parents' car that ended up with a friend of his getting his arm broke. Our parents put him on "house arrest" for the summer -- my little brother was a little hellion, and this wasn't his first offense. He was restricted from eating with the family, playing outside, and in fact leaving his room other than to use the bathroom.  My dad even cut part of his bedroom door off near the floor so food and drink could be passed in to him.  He was not allowed to talk to any of us -- unless we talked to him first.  Sounds really bad, right?  Well, I was in the bedroom next to him, and I don't remember a bit of it.  Many years later when my mom and the two of us were having a conversation, this incident was brought up, and I reacted like "What the heck?"  They thought it was extremely funny that I didn't remember.

There have been a few other things like this.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I've had some weird experiences with memory myself, but in my case it is things that actually happened that I don't remember at all.  Possibly because I was so self-centered and oblivious?  I don't know, but...

My 14-year-old brother got in trouble messing with our parents' car that ended up with a friend of his getting his arm broke. Our parents put him on "house arrest" for the summer -- my little brother was a little hellion, and this wasn't his first offense. He was restricted from eating with the family, playing outside, and in fact leaving his room other than to use the bathroom.  My dad even cut part of his bedroom door off near the floor so food and drink could be passed in to him.  He was not allowed to talk to any of us -- unless we talked to him first.  Sounds really bad, right?  Well, I was in the bedroom next to him, and I don't remember a bit of it.  Many years later when my mom and the two of us were having a conversation, this incident was brought up, and I reacted like "What the heck?"  They thought it was extremely funny that I didn't remember.

There have been a few other things like this.

I'm glad you're able to repress memories from your horrible childhood.  Hope your brother is, too.  

  

[changed]

I just ran across this:

Quote

 

If you have been guilty of sexual abuse, seek to discipline your mind. Remember that your thoughts have a powerful impact on your life—“as [a man] thinketh in his heart, so is he” (Proverbs 23:7). Stay away from pornography and anything else that could stimulate immoral sexual desire. Pray for the ability to “let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly” (D&C 121:45).

in https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/abuse?lang=eng

I find it odd that the book does not tell those who are guilty of abuse to confess and repent.  They need to turn themselves in to the proper authority, and make sure the victim gets the help they need.  

If you have been guilty of ... rape... of assaulting someone... just... learn to control your thoughts???!!??  just, you know, stay away form the porn???  .... and this is why abuse goes on for years and years without being stopped in the LDS church.

 

Here is advice for the victim:

 Rather than seek revenge, focus on matters you can control, such as your own outlook on life. Pray for the strength to forgive those who have hurt you.

??!!??  Don't turn the abuser in, do not press charges, don't stop the abuse - just forgive them???  ... This is equivalent to enabling the abuser to continue abusing more and more and more people... I have seen it happen, and now I see the church policies that support it happening.  

Edited June 25, 2018 by changed

[Stargazer]

50 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm glad you're able to repress memories from your horrible childhood.  Hope your brother is, too.  

  

These weren't horrible memories!  A few of the memories that I lost were good!  Meeting George Harrison in a record store in London in 1970.  Caddying for Bob Hope's professional caddy at a golf tournament near Toronto, Canada in the summer of 1968.  I don't have a single memory of these events, but family members assured me they happened!

My brother regards his experience in solitary confinement as very valuable.  I suppose he thought it was good preparation for his later career with the USAF, in which he had some very exciting and frightening things happen to him.

[Duncan]

Take this with a million pound bag of Salt but I recall reading years ago a honours paper written at BYU , something about MTC folktales. IIRC it was written by a english major lady. She tried tracking down the source for the MTC is on fire and it turned out the Nephites were surrounding it and the MTC President was going to call the fire dept. but the spirit told him it was the Nephites. So, this lady contacted everyone that had been a MTC President and none of them had ever had that experience, so I'm assuming she contacted Joseph Bishop but don't know for sure.

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 hours ago, changed said:

I find it odd that the book does not tell those who are guilty of abuse to confess and repent.
...
??!!??  Don't turn the abuser in, do not press charges, don't stop the abuse - just forgive them???  ... This is equivalent to enabling the abuser to continue abusing more and more and more people... I have seen it happen, and now I see the church policies that support it happening.  

Whoa now, changed.  When I go to LDS.org and spend 30 seconds looking, here's what I find:

https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse : 

Quote

Those who have been abusive in any relationship are urged to repent of their sin, to plead with the Lord for forgiveness, and to ask for forgiveness from those who have been harmed. Those who have been abusive should also speak with their bishop or branch president so he can help them through the repentance process and, if necessary, help them receive additional counseling or other assistance. Part of the repentance process may also include accepting whatever penalties are imposed by law.
...
Victims of abuse should seek help immediately, normally from their bishop or branch president. His first responsibility is to help those who have been abused and to protect those who may be vulnerable to future abuse.
Victims of abuse should be assured that they are not to blame for the harmful behavior of others. They do not need to feel guilt. If they have been a victim of rape or other sexual abuse, whether they have been abused by an acquaintance, a stranger, or even a family member, victims of sexual abuse are not guilty of sexual sin.
Victims of abuse can seek help from their priesthood leader to guide them through the process of emotional healing. Through the blessings of the gospel, victims of abuse can stop the cycle of abuse and be freed from the suffering they have experienced.

 

I've personally been involved in reporting an abuser to church authorities.  They held a disciplinary council, and Dood was excommunicated, and did 5 years of a 5-life sentence.  They respected my request to not involve the victim at all - she had better things to do than re-live the abuse and have to answer a bunch of questions about it, again.  The Stake President contacted me, gave me the results of the council, and said I was welcome to share whatever I felt appropriate with the victim that would help her heal best.  This all happened ten years ago, not exactly recent.

I also have a small amount of 2ndhand experience with rape crisis centers and victim counseling.  The lawyers, the social workers, the professionals - they talk about filing reports and pursuing justice as a thing that may or may not be a desirable thing, may or may not even be possible.   You might be well served looking up a few rape crisis centers and reading some of their informational material.  There are plusses and minuses for a victim to consider before calling the cops.  Not according to Mormons, but according to the professionals. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[changed]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Whoa now, changed.  When I go to LDS.org and spend 30 seconds looking, here's what I find:

https://www.lds.org/topics/abuse : 

 

I've personally been involved in reporting an abuser to church authorities.  They held a disciplinary council, and Dood was excommunicated, and did 5 years of a 5-life sentence.  They respected my request to not involve the victim at all - she had better things to do than re-live the abuse and have to answer a bunch of questions about it, again.  The Stake President contacted me, gave me the results of the council, and said I was welcome to share whatever I felt appropriate with the victim that would help her heal best.  This all happened ten years ago, not exactly recent.

I also have a small amount of 2ndhand experience with rape crisis centers and victim counseling.  The lawyers, the social workers, the professionals - they talk about filing reports and pursuing justice as a thing that may or may not be a desirable thing, may or may not even be possible.   You might be well served looking up a few rape crisis centers and reading some of their informational material.  There are plusses and minuses for a victim to consider before calling the cops.  Not according to Mormons, but according to the professionals. 

 

I am personally involved in a case right now that was not reported by the church... and went on for years...   happy to see other wards handled it differently.  

 

[bluebell]

17 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

There's several temple stories like the one I think you're referring to. They're so similar that it's hard for me to believe Bishop wasn't using them for his own means. That said I've heard of accounts of angels and sons of perdition from people first hand related to the MTC or events on their mission. These were trustworthy sorts so I'm more loath to dismiss them. It's just that Bishop's account sounds much more like plagiarism.

That said I think false memory syndrome is such that I wouldn't be at all surprised to find people recounting other people's stories as their own or at least confounding their own memories. I even had it happened to me once much to my surprise. (Something relatively banal - I remembered seeing Jennifer Garner and Ben Affleck at a restaurant I often go to in San Francisco when I'm there. It was actually something my business partner had told me of that happened when I wasn't with him. It happened after a period of sleep deprivation due to a new baby but shows how memories can be distorted when saved or resaved. (Each time you remember something it's re-stored but often transfigured in that restorage in long term memory) Memory is an odd thing. The more distant the memory the more reason to distrust it IMO.

My friend’s husband committed adultery, and one of the things they learned in group therapy afterwards was how brains can rewrite memories. 

In this context it had to do with how hormones (like those felt in the early stages of love/lust during an affair) can actually cause a spouse to rewrite good marriage memories into bad ones, making a spouse appear to be a bad spouse or a marriage a bad marriage, when that actually wasn’t true, to help overcome feelings of guilt for the affair. 

She thought it was fascinating and it explained a lot for her.  I thought it was really cool to learn too, though also kind of frightening to realize how little we can actually rely on our memories to be accurate. 

[The Nehor]

On 6/21/2018 at 1:57 PM, jkwilliams said:

Several times while I was in the MTC, he told the story of a vision he had had, where the MTC was surrounded by black demons as far as the eye could see. But there was a ring of angels protecting the MTC and keeping the demons out. Every time we had an impure thought or touched ourselves, we were letting one of those demons in and driving away the spirit. After all these years, learning what he was doing in the basement was pretty shocking.

That story or a similar one was passed around amongst missionaries while I was there much later (1998). Hey Bluebell, fellow 1998 MTC attender. I did not give it much credit then.

I have had experiences with unclean spirits but this kind of dramatic rubbish makes no sense. Angels stand vigil but have to let the devils through due to sin? Why have the angels? Are angels that hard up for something to do that they stand around staring at devils all day and all night.

[Calm]

Bishop told several stories in the transcript where he took center stage (his wife's first marriage, his son's problems, sisters needing counseling in the MTC, possession of a sister missionary in Argentina).  I suspect he makes a habit of that and wouldn't be shy about rewriting someone else's experience.

[Jeanne]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Bishop told several stories in the transcript where he took center stage (his wife's first marriage, his son's problems, sisters needing counseling in the MTC, possession of a sister missionary in Argentina).  I suspect he makes a habit of that and wouldn't be shy about rewriting someone else's experience.

Me thinks he lives in a world created by himself...no excuse for behavior..but he seems to create a world where everything works for him..really sad and sad for the victims in this world.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That story or a similar one was passed around amongst missionaries while I was there much later (1998). Hey Bluebell, fellow 1998 MTC attender. I did not give it much credit then.

1998 MTC represent. ✊🏻

What month were you there?

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

1998 MTC represent. ✊🏻

What month were you there?

Late March to early May. 5 weeks. Long for an English speaking mission. They stuck us in the call center a lot. Yuck!

[The Nehor]

On 6/25/2018 at 6:50 PM, bluebell said:

My friend’s husband committed adultery, and one of the things they learned in group therapy afterwards was how brains can rewrite memories. 

In this context it had to do with how hormones (like those felt in the early stages of love/lust during an affair) can actually cause a spouse to rewrite good marriage memories into bad ones, making a spouse appear to be a bad spouse or a marriage a bad marriage, when that actually wasn’t true, to help overcome feelings of guilt for the affair. 

She thought it was fascinating and it explained a lot for her.  I thought it was really cool to learn too, though also kind of frightening to realize how little we can actually rely on our memories to be accurate. 

Yeah, learning that helped me understand how a friend who was very happy in the Church and faithful and is now inactive now talks about how miserable he always was back in Church.

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Late March to early May. 5 weeks. Long for an English speaking mission. They stuck us in the call center a lot. Yuck!

We were there at the same time then.  I was there from March 11-April 13 and also have war stories from time spent in the call center.