Announcement Re: Revisions to Hymnbook and Children's Songbook

[mnn727]

23 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Standard complaining and faultfinding about “Praise to the Man” coming in three ... two ... one ....

While I love the song, I think it needs to be relegated to Priesthood/ Relief Society and not sung in Sacrament meeting. 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I was beginning to think I was the only one left alive who remembers that show. It was quite the sensation. A 1960s national network variety series starring a huge, extended Mormon family stemming from a Big Band era sister act that had competed with the Andrews Sisters in the 1940s. This pre-dated Osmondmania by a few years, although the Osmond Brothers had already made their mark on the Andy Williams Show. 

I wasn't Mormon then, just an ordinary gentile. 

But to me the show was a rival perhaps to Lawrence Welk and about just as interesting to a teen. 

And that pretty much went for Donny and Marie too.  Corny old fashioned stuff in my mind at the time.  Rolling Stones and Jefferson Airplane vs Donny & Marie?  

"One pill makes you larger, and the other makes you small- and the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all....."

"Just as every cop is a criminal 
And all the sinners saints 
As heads is tails just call me Lucifer 
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint"

Worlds colliding....

But yes I do remember it.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Are you serious that all that is Doctrine? Joseph is exalted and mingles with gods, plans for the church, he ascended into heaven, and the Earth must atone for the blood of that man?

This is now doctrine and should be part of the Canon?

Or should our hymns be non-doctrinal?

I don’t remember seeing anything in there about Joseph already being exalted, though I do believe that at this point his exaltation is assured. 

I believe he is now in paradise in the spirit world, so yes, in a sense, he has ascended to heaven. I believe that, like all the faithful who have departed this life and gone to paradise, he works under the direction of the Father and the Son to help bring about Their work, which pertains to the salvation of God’s children. Furthermore, as Prophet of the Restoration whose grand mission was foretold in ancient scripture, he undoubtedly has a key role in that great work, for which he does interact or “mingle” with Deity. 

As for the earth atoning for his blood, I’ve already said in this thread that this strikes me as poetic language, but I do fervently believe that the wicked of this world will be held to answer for their acts in oppressing and slaying the prophets of God, Joseph Smith among the rest. 

I’m shocked and a bit saddened that this expression of belief seems to upset you so, but I can’t help that. For future reference, though, be it known that I hold the prophet of the Restoration in high esteem and will boldly express that, even as I witness the fulfillment of the statement of Jesus Christ I have quoted in my signature line, that “fools will have [Joseph Smith] in derision.”

Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

YES!!!!!!!

NOW you are talking! 

THAT is international!!

There are some gorgeous Polish carols (kodely) that we should all learn.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Ya'know those Mormons... cultural thieves they are....

Now try putting that into English!!!

And one may begin to realize the problems with cross-cultural songs

That will be be just one of the huge hurdles the committees will have to jump over.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

While I love the song, I think it needs to be relegated to Priesthood/ Relief Society and not sung in Sacrament meeting. 

It’s not self evident to me why a distinction like that should be drawn, but you are entitled to your opinion. 

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

In Hawaii there are two directions- toward the mountain or toward the beach, Mauka or Makai.  But using those terms would be odd to Utahns- yes?

In Happy Valley, there are two parallel mountain ranges that define east and west. Same where I grew up near Santa Fe, NM. 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I wasn't Mormon then, just an ordinary gentile. 

But to me the show was a rival perhaps to Lawrence Welk and about just as interesting to a teen. 

And that pretty much went for Donny and Marie too.  Corny old fashioned stuff in my mind at the time.  Rolling Stones and Jefferson Airplane vs Donny & Marie?  

"One pill makes you larger, and the other makes you small- and the ones that mother gives you don't do anything at all....."

"Just as every cop is a criminal 
And all the sinners saints 
As heads is tails just call me Lucifer 
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint"

Worlds colliding....

But yes I do remember it.

It was not universally acclaimed by teens in my world (born and reared in the Church) either, but even so, for those of us who felt kinship and community with other members of the Church, it was exciting to see some of our own achieve such success on the national stage and to see one of our indigenous hymns performed every week on a national network variety show. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

 

I like the song, and don't have a problem praising Joseph Smith, but I do think a rewrite would be appropriate. I don't think that will go over so well with the majority of my Utah brethren so maybe I'll just do it, and leave it for the Church to decide later  Mingling with gods? Sure. I believe early saints will be awarded the status of elohim along with Joseph. Is he planning for his breithren? Possibly. We do know in the re-generation those who follow Yeshua will be judges of Israel. Maybe he is planning already. Shall earth atone for his blood? Punishment is not atonement, but shall those who persecuted seek his forgiveness? I believe they will, yes. So in that sense they are atoning. If he forgives them, then they can receive forgiveness of the Father. He was murdered, which is a grave offense - not that he was completely innocent in the matter by having a press destroyed.

Notice though that these are all in FUTURE TENSE and the song is in present tense.

And it is stated with certainty that this is NOW the case- that they are mingling with Gods etc.

And the doctrine of blood atonement is referenced- not "seeking forgiveness" - a BIG DIFFERENCE.   And no, he was not completely innocent.

If a President today tried to silence the opposition by banning or blocking or destroying their only means of communication, he would be impeached clearly.  Of course an equivalent action really does not exist today.

I love Joseph and totally affirm him as perhaps the most important prophet who ever lived, and a total genius besides-  but perfect and totally innocent??   No way!!

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, John Pack Lambert said:

I believe Lex de Azevedo's mother was one of the King Sisters.

Yes, that’s true. 

And Tina Cole, one of the “King cousins” went on to have a starring role in later episodes of the long-running sit-com “My Three Sons.”

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, John Pack Lambert said:

Culture and language change and flow, and rigidity and articificial walls against its spread just lead to dislike and emnity. Bridges of understanding are built by interactions with others culture.

Which is the huge hurdle the new hymnal faces. For example, despite sharing a common language, Latin American countries have distinctive cultures of which they are very proud. Even regions within those countries have starkly different cultures including musical styles, unique accents, dialects, and lingo, etc. So, including a Mexican or Chilean song as representative of Latino culture would not only ignore those differences, but could be offensive to some who weren't included or dislike those countries. If we include Russian, German, or Swedish hymns, then I want Polish hymns, too. After all, those countries have inflicted great damage on Poland. Why should they get to represent Europe? In all fairness, though, perhaps these issues won’t be part of the considerations for the new hymnal creation. Who knows? Good luck to the committees.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If church members take an oath of vengeance, does that mean that they do nothing while they wait for God to take care of things? I must not be understanding your position because that doesn't make any sense.

Why couldn’t it mean that? 

I guess I’m not understanding why that doesn’t make sense to you. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, that’s true. 

And Tina Cole, one of the “King cousins” went on to have a starring role in later episodes of the long-running sit-com “My Three Sons.”

I’m a King cousin. Maybe I can get some of the residuals! 🤩

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

I’m a King cousin. Maybe I can get some of the residuals! 🤩

But are you one of THE King cousins?

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But are you one of THE King cousins?

Hey, I AM the King cousin, although by some level of removed by now. 

 

[RevTestament]

44 minutes ago, John Pack Lambert said:

I believe Lex de Azevedo's mother was one of the King Sisters.

Yep. He grew up living with the King family. It was like the King family compound. That is how he started doing musical arrangements. 

[RevTestament]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are some gorgeous Polish carols (kodely) that we should all learn.

To quote a good internet buddy, "QED."

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Zero! Blast off!

Joseph worship no bueno in a worldwide Church. Here we are talking about prophets being fallible, and clearly Joseph was one who was, and now we have him mingling with Gods so he can plan for his brethren, and ascending to Heaven as Jesus did, and the Earth seeking blood atonement for this horrible sin of murder??

Come on, it's over the top. It was a horrible crime but we are over the shock. It was a long time ago.

I have a strong testimony of Joseph's prophethood, but now especially when we are looking at prior errors made in the church we need to understand that prophets are human.

I’ve already responded to some of these points when I answered your other rant, but fot the umpteenth time, there’s nothing in those words about “worshipping” Joseph Smith. Learn the distinction between praise and worship. 

When I tell my son how proud I am of him for his A average, am I worshiping him? 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hey, I AM the King cousin, although by some level of removed by now. 

 

Well, we’re all descended from Charlemagne. Just sayin’. 

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m a King cousin. Maybe I can get some of the residuals! 🤩

Mmm. Don't count on that. I am Michael Crichton's cousin, and I ain't seen one of his pennies yet. 

I figure I can steal his idea and write a realistic version called Cretaceous Park - That's when T Rex really lived. I'll make millions...and in the process teach my cuz a thing or two.

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Notice though that these are all in FUTURE TENSE and the song is in present tense.

And it is stated with certainty that this is NOW the case- that they are mingling with Gods etc.

And the doctrine of blood atonement is referenced- not "seeking forgiveness" - a BIG DIFFERENCE.   And no, he was not completely innocent.

If a President today tried to silence the opposition by banning or blocking or destroying their only means of communication, he would be impeached clearly.  Of course an equivalent action really does not exist today.

I love Joseph and totally affirm him as perhaps the most important prophet who ever lived, and a total genius besides-  but perfect and totally innocent??   No way!!

I’ve already disputed your conclusions about what the words are saying. But even so, some prophecies in the scriptures are written as though they had already occurred. It’s called a poetic device. 

And nobody here has said Joseph was perfect or without fault. I don’t know where you’re getting that. 

By the way, you’re right when you said a comparable situation to the Expisitor incident doesn’t exist today. Even so, we can discuss it in terms of broad principles. As I said yesterday in another conversation, freedom of the press is not absolute, not even today. There are restrictions pertaining to libel, for example. The remedy for libel in 1840s Nauvoo was to have a libelous press declared a public nuisance and to have it abated. There were legal precedents. 

If course, that wouldn’t fly today, but as you have intimated, times have changed. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Your sarcasm detector is flawed.

 

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Maybe it is because I don't view Scott Lloyd's comment as sarcasm. It was derisive in anticipation of anyone having a problem with Praise to the Man.

Or maybe my sarcasm detector is flawed by misreading your comment about my sarcasm detector is flawed. I can't tell  

 

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, this rhetorical device is called "sarcasm". He was not stating his own opinion he was stating derisively the opinion of others in anticipation of that outcome.

So Scott must be a prophet because he's right ! The outcome has come to pass, and sweet little me has fulfilled the prophecy.

I couldn't let it invitation like that just go by.

If Happy Jack Wagon’s sarcasm detector isn’t flawed, his comprehension of word definitions  is. 

Sarcasm is a form of derision. Yes, HJW, I was deriding you and others by means of sarcasm in anticipation of your whining and virtue signaling about “Praise to the Man.” 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[RevTestament]

27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Notice though that these are all in FUTURE TENSE and the song is in present tense.

And it is stated with certainty that this is NOW the case- that they are mingling with Gods etc.

Does Yeshua visit Paradise? I bet He does. Paradise is essentially the "saved" portion of the spirit world. Those who have died in Christ. They were valiant in life. That is essentially the definition of the celestial kingdom where they are headed.  Maybe they are called elohim. We don't know.

Quote

And the doctrine of blood atonement is referenced- not "seeking forgiveness" - a BIG DIFFERENCE. 

Mmm. Maybe. That is probably the way the early saints heard it, but it doesn't say "blood atonement." The earth can reference its inhabitants, so I don't have too much problem with that as written. 

I do feel the words could use some revision, but that's me. I do hear what you are saying. I had more problem with the tune the first couple of times I sang it. And forgiveness is a big part of the atonement as I bet Joseph would tell you if you could talk to him. If Yeshua doesn't forgive us, there is no atonement.

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If Happy Jack Wagon’s sarcasm detector isn’t flawed, his comprehension of word definitions  is. 

Sarcasm is a form of derision. Yes, HJW, I was deriding you and others in anticipation of your whining and virtue signaling about “Praise to the Man.” 

Reminds me of one of my favorite single-panel cartoons...

A nerdy-looking guy in a vest and bow tie is standing near a bar facing several big thuggish-looking patrons. His caption..."I must warn you! I am highly trained in the art of sarcasm and derision!"

Edited June 19, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Reminds me of one of my favorite single-panel cartoons...

A nerdy-looking guy in a vest and bow tie is standing near a bar facing several bit thuggish-looking patrons. His caption..."I must warn you! I am highly trained in the art of sarcasm and derision!"

I’m reminded of a line of dialogue from Buzz Lightyear in “Toy Story”: 

“You’re mocking me, aren’t you?”